129 replies to this topic

[Hammish]

As someone else pointed out in a different thread, and provided a link to Extra Credits.. there is such a thing as perfect imbalance.

Stop whining, adapt, and welcome to the metagame.

[Fiachdubh]

Jumped into my founders Hunchback today for first time in couple weeks between unlocking another Hunchie chassis basic skills and a hand injury. Every time I came up against a Streak Cat was ripped apart in seconds. Currently the most effective close combat mech in the game is a long range mech and the worst is BTs dedicated brawler mech the Hunchback because its main weapon is so easy to hit. Look at the size of it compared to the AC20 on the Atlas or Yen Lo Wang. When last used it the problem was running out of ammo, now I am lucky to get a couple shots off before it is destroyed.

[Lykaon]

xRaeder, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with piloting. Every pre-made I see now has 2-3 Streakcats in it. ... <snip>...

See the problem is that there is nothing that can kill them now that people have figured out what to do and premades are rolling with them in force.

It's not "evil premades"using streakcats.It's everyone using them.Let's just stop scapegoating premades for everything and simply face facts.

When a particular build grants an obvious advantage it will be prevelent.And as of now I see streakcats in nearly every match I have been on since the patch.Premade or puggie people will use the crutch cat because it grants obvious advantages.

It's like it was two patches back when streaks were bugged and hommed in on the CT.Who doesn't want a 9 ton 6 crit weapon that way out performs an AC20.

Same range as an AC20,50% higher damage,super ammo efficent,easyer heat managment,doesn't miss when locked,can't be 100% disabled with a single crit hit,only 6 crits instead of 10,and only 9 tons instead of 14 !

Of course people want a weapon system like this.It's the perfect crutch for either poor hardware/connections AND just plain old fashioned sucking.

[Kaijin]

I had a Streak Cat running away from my Jenner-K last night. Y'see, I had an Artemis LRM5. Sadly, the rest of the Streak Cat's team didn't allow the duel to play out to completion.

I was driving a Streak Cat one match, and Broceratops dispatched me pretty quickly with an AC/20 Cat., though TBH, it ididn't help that he and 3 of his teammates were sitting on my base cap and I was trying to defend it.

I've seen a Streak Cat killed in much less than 37 seconds by a Laserback, but the Streak Cat was busy with some other victim. If anything, this video goes to show that even a Dev can be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[FerretGR]

Devs are not gods. I bet they play this game less than half this forum. That one got killed by a streakcat says nothing about the streakcat beyond it being somewhat effective.

My streakcat tips:

1. Stay at range. If you have anything that's got a range better than 270m, and you can keep the engagement at a range greater than that, it's already game over for the streakcat.
2. Use the buddy system. The streakcat can only lock onto one target at a time. Streaks are far more dangerous in duels than they are in any other situation.
3. Use cover. Don't fight streakcats in the water on Forest or in any of the open areas on Caustic. A single rock to run around and put between you and the Cat is all you need to break lock.
4. Aim for the wings. You and your buddy should be able to strip off the lightly armored wings in seconds if you focus. Once they're gone, you've got an unarmed Cat.

I haven't been killed by one in a LONG time. We make them primary targets when I drop with my team, and they're out of the fight before they can do anything.

Edited by FerretGR, 22 November 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[Woky]

I think its fair to say that streak Cats are fairly easy to kill, but in the hands of a pilot who knows how to use one can be a real pain. One of my biggest worries about them honestly is that with the lack of aiming, and the endless cycle of buff and nerf in gaming that newer pilots who specialize in these may be left in the cold when they do get nerfed again.

I will not however say that they are 100% skill free. A good pilot who knows to hang back until his team has engaged and use the locks they give him to perform his pop up attacks rather than run in and get focused, as well as one who can dodge enemies while hitting his teams focus target can be truly a nasty opponent.

I think that a system of easy to learn and difficult to master is typically best in any video game. These mechs may however be a little too easy to learn, here is a comparison of how I see it. In an AC20 hunch a mastered player gets 100% performance out of the mech, lands all shots, expert pilot at dodging fire, avoiding the focus and focusing targets himself, can land head shots and hit lights. A new player in this mech gets around 40-50% of the machines ability going for himself, he sometimes misses, is still getting used to firing on the move, and the lag shield still is a source of frustration and shattered keyboards for him. In a streak Cat, while the mastered player again pushes the limit, the newer player gets about 85% efficiency out of the mech, as he worries not about lead time or any particular counter mech and knows if he does go down he will at least do some decent damage on the way.

For now however I'll reserve my judgement until scissors are added to deal with this paper mech, Maybe when jump jets heat you up like a bause or ECM gives the middle finger to your streak lock, or maybe even when a ppc blows your hud out. As much as I think they may be a little to over powered for the opening levels of play, I think that saving the balance tuning until we have more samples of equipment will be better.

[Coolant]

37 seconds is a long battle...giving perspective that's 12 times your lasers recharge and fire...nearly 10 times ur guass rifle or ac/20 does...74 shots from an AC2...oh and that's nearly 11 times ur SSRM2's fire in an alpha...

You want to talk about fast battles, go play MW4:Mercs where you die in around 3 shots...

I think SSRM2's are balanced, but moot anyway cause it sounds like from the transcript of that encounter with Bryan that they are gonna get tweaked anyway...or maybe chain firing? Ooo...that's sounds much better (mainly cause I don't do it

[Skyfaller]

DrAwkward, on 22 November 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Listen again. You either didn't hear correctly or are being disingenuous.

Person 1 asks: "It's a streakcat and he's doing that whole chain-fire business to bounce the screen around. Do you find that frustrating sometimes, Bryan?"
Bryan: "Yeah, it gets a little annoying, but it's--uh, I think we got a couple of tweaks coming down the pipe that's going to fix some of that.

It's unclear if he is referring to streaks, streakcats, or screen shake.

The screen shake is going to be the change. They simply cannot nerf a weapon used by many mechs simply because the one mech that load lots of them uses them effectively. Its like nerfing medium lasers because the jenner loads 6 of them. Just silly.

[Jun Watarase]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 22 November 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

Starting at 56:06: http://www.twitch.tv/igp/b/342004325

Calls them "frustrating, annoying"

Total time for his full health hunchback to be killed by the streakcat: approximately 37 seconds.


.

37 seconds? Big deal, a brawler CPLT-C1 loadout of 4 med lasers and 2 SRM-6s would easily have killed his full health hunchback in a fraction of the time. A gausscat? same deal. AWS-8Q boating med pulse lasers, quad AC 5 cataphract, etc, etc.

The only reason why people think streakcats are OP is because the **** tier netcode/hit detection means its the only weapon that is hitting when it should be hitting.

Oh, that and the fact that chain firing streaks can stun lock your mech and prevent it from shooting back effectively, but thats because the devs failed to code in anything to prevent stun locks (cough ac2s cough).

But a dev got killed by them so brace for overnerf like what happened to LRMs.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 22 November 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Taizan]

How does he chat with his group outside of the game at 14:05? Didn't even know about this.

[Dirkdaring]

It's the SHAKE AND BLUR that has to be nerferd hardcore. I get hit with a gauss rifle and the mech barely shakes. I get hit for 2 points by a twinkie SSRM2 and the mech joltes all over and the screen blurs.

W > T > F

[Lyteros]

If you go out in a hunchback with 5 MPL at less then 1 heat efficiency, put a XL engine on it and then drop with 49,1 tons instead of your 50, where you continue to stand still right next to a streak cat...
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A BAD TIME.

This has nothing to do with ssrms. It has to do with how dev's know to balance their mechs.

Wait a moment...

[Cpt Jason McCarthy]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 22 November 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

Total time for his full health hunchback to be killed by the streakcat: approximately 37 seconds.

And you find this short ??? LOL

Dirkdaring, on 22 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

It's the SHAKE AND BLUR that has to be nerferd hardcore. I get hit with a gauss rifle and the mech barely shakes. I get hit for 2 points by a twinkie SSRM2 and the mech joltes all over and the screen blurs.

W > T > F

I agree !

Edited by Shadowpunisher, 22 November 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Mr 144]

He was in the PERFECT mech to handle a Sreakapult. The problem was, the cat got the drop on him and he had no manuevering room. A Single well placed alpha by that hunchback removes an ear...rinse, repeat. Just bad luck...no big deal.

Mr 144

[Grimlox]

Did you just say a medium mech went down in 37 seconds of continuous fire????!?!?!?!

Something must be OP.

[Tekerton]

Allekatrase, on 22 November 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

But the biggest issue I have with your post is that being a developer somehow makes them an amazing player automatically. I'm sure a lot of developers are really good players, but it is in no way some inherent ability of developers nor is it likely they get more play time than a lot of the more dedicated players here. In fact the dedicated players probably play a lot more than most of the devs. You think their job is to play the game?

This, This, a thousand times THIS.

[Tekerton]

zenstrata, on 22 November 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

This is not an FPS. if you think it is, go back and play something else, you are in the wrong place.

*Edit* This is about piloting a large war machine called a battlemech. You are in control of that machine. Fps type games are things like call of duty, or wolfenstien 3d, or quake, the list goes on.... The difference here is you are piloting a vehical. Not running around on foot. Think of yourself like the pilot of that vehical. You are NOT the mech itself. This makes Mechwarrior a Simulation. Not an Fps.

Thank You. This should be the very first statement in any user guide. Hell, they should put this on the front page of the site.

[Lord Rip]

Lykaon, on 22 November 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

It's not "evil premades"using streakcats.It's everyone using them.Let's just stop scapegoating premades for everything and simply face facts.

When a particular build grants an obvious advantage it will be prevelent.And as of now I see streakcats in nearly every match I have been on since the patch.Premade or puggie people will use the crutch cat because it grants obvious advantages.

It's like it was two patches back when streaks were bugged and hommed in on the CT.Who doesn't want a 9 ton 6 crit weapon that way out performs an AC20.

Same range as an AC20,50% higher damage,super ammo efficent,easyer heat managment,doesn't miss when locked,can't be 100% disabled with a single crit hit,only 6 crits instead of 10,and only 9 tons instead of 14 !

Of course people want a weapon system like this.It's the perfect crutch for either poor hardware/connections AND just plain old fashioned sucking.

Really? You are going to complain because SIX weapons outperforms ONE?

[steelblueskies]

streakcat without jets = derpcat.

it does take skill to use them well.

those shortbus passengers that want to stick on the ground and dumbchainfire them, are annoying, but also the least useful form(vs anything sub 90kph).

as i said prior and in matches enlightening people on proper use, one must get airborne to use them properly.

using midair flutter to exchange two full alphas on an enemy while maintaining position outside their torso range isn't derp mode, but is relatively easy, compared to using midair flutter directly above the enemy such that they can't even arm aim hit you while you use freelook to get the reticule down far enough to maintain lock and do the same thing.

granted that also isn't as difficult as doing the same with 4xsrm6+2xsrm4.

its rough trying to flutter freelook aim and time those shots just right.

with streaks i used to favor trying for the perfect midair angle to take humaniform mechs heads due to their flight path.

but frankly the main problem is that they differ from other weapons. if you render their targeting completely random you make them equal to tt weapon hit calcs, while everything else save lrms remain aim fire. that right there will render them trash as a general use weapon inherently. unless one wishes to insert a random chance for ALL weapons to randomly launch off target to crosshairs.

a proper solution would be to lock on to whatever part of the mech the crosshairs were on when firing was triggered and let them randomly also lock onto other mech parts the crosshairs contacted during the delay between triggering fire and actual launch. better aim= better section lock grouping. that brings it further from tt random towards aim based fpsim.

in typical fashion even on slower targets this would enable random missile hits between two or three segments, and on fast targets could randomly lock onto most of the mech.

the only time to zero in single sections should/would require non moving targets.

afterall, and reflect on this, streaks are one of the only weapons that cannot explicitly target the head. technically you only have four weapon systems that are excluded from doing so directly in one way or another, and the srm and lbx-ac only just manage to fall into this category due to spread.

32 points for a head, armor and internals. if your armor anywhere else is greater than that value be glad it's a streak and not something direct fire. it's almost always easier to hit the head from above.

further reflect that 6ssrm2 = 30 pts damage. 6 mlas= 30 pts damage. 3 ppc= 30 pts damage. 3+1/3 llas = 30 pts damage. 2 gauss = 30 pts damage. you can't hide behind netcode complicating lagshield/lagshooting forever, and with it gone direct fire gets ever more deadly, and at better ranges.

if you have issue with a pilot utilizing jj's on a mech with arm weapon mounts able to hit you in arcs you cannot return fire, then join me in dissappointment about no mechs with heavy direct fire weapon arm mounts(in volume say 4 energy slots or the like) AND jumpjets. the phract starts this path, the highlander will also continue it. but until we see chassis with more than four mounts in the arms and jj's alongside enough tonnage to really work it (unlike the lights- heat+armor issues) just continue to count your lucky chickens that the singular chassis that does combine those features does such low damage due to the weapon type involved, and does it at such short range only.

[Xyberviri]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 22 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

He wasn't in a scout mech. He was in a HUNCHBACK. The definitive battletech close range brawling mech. That was decimated in a brawl by what's supposed to be a fire support mech.

Good to hear he said tweaks are coming.

.

Hunchbacks suck because they only have 48 points of armor for the hunch, however most of the time that is put on the front because you have to deal with the front/left/right side of said hunch. now if you go to the back in the default configuration you only have 8 points of armor. You have this big pod thing on the back that is a easy target.


Also BT rules in this game arnt the same here as on the table you dont have to deal with die to target a body part you just target the body part. Im really suprised legging isn't more popular; heck Mechwarrior rules from earlier games dont even apply to this game.... if they did i would be waiting for the timber wolf like a school girl...

Edited by Xyberviri, 22 November 2012 - 12:09 PM.