91 replies to this topic

[Hauser]

Mavairo, on 22 November 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

(...)

It's now a weapon that spends 25 percent of it's firing cycle not firing.

(...)

AC5 and AC2 are by far superior now, for any wet work needed.

Other way around.

For 1 extra ton you get an AC5 which gives you the option to pump out an extra round in a pinch when you need it.

Edited by Hauser, 22 November 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[MuonNeutrino]

Paul Inouye, on 22 November 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Jams? Yes.. as it should. There's a 25% chance of jamming on the 2nd shot (double tapped). If you wait for cooldown it will never jam. This is the risk and part of the backstory that makes up the UACs. Heavier? The weight didn't change. More Slots? The number of slots hasn't changed. Lower DPS? To be expected with a jammed weapon no?

I understand that the ability to double tap with that small of a jam risk was probably a bit overpowered. However, is there any possibility that we'd get a greater ability to control when we actually want to double-tap? At this point the problem I'm seeing is that it's difficult to actually take advantage of the gun's non-double tapping fire rate without accidentally firing a split-second too soon and running the risk of a jam. If I could guarantee that my uac5's wouldn't ever jam until I actually made a conscious decision to try and unleash the double-tapping, I'd still use them. Is there any chance of getting either a: the ability to hold down the trigger and fire only single shots, or b: the ability to toggle the double-tap (perhaps on a weapon-group basis, so that you could have one group with them set to single-shot and another group for dropping the double-taps)?

[Zolaz]

So, I can have a 25% chance of jamming which will unjam in 5 sec or in TT I can have a UAC 5 jam 3% of the time and not work the rest of the game. In TT you had to roll snake eyes, which if my math is correct is 1/34 or .0291 = 3%. That is a pretty significant difference.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Further, on 22 November 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Why would ANYONE use the UAC5?
Jams? Heavier?
More slots?
Lower overal damage output because of jamming.

Its a weapon for clowns. Im beginnning to wonder if the devs have any sense.

Answer = +50% RoF without jamming, +10% Range

[Green Mamba]

Laokin, on 22 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Flint lock rifles didn't jam silly.

They were loaded manually one lead ball at a time. There was also no shell casing. They packed the barrel with powder using a packing rod. Same thing for matchlock pistols. They were one shot, no casing, just a lead ball. There were multishot flintlocks and matchlocks, but they were also multi barrel. Each barrel only held one shot and each shot had to be manually loaded. The best of the best gunsman of the day took 15 seconds to reload in between shots.

Jamming didn't occur until automatic weapons. Automatic doesn't mean rapid fire, it means automatic loading. Most clip rifles weren't even automatic, they were mostly bolt action, streamlined manual.

Jamming didn't exist until magazines circa WWII.

[Magazines existed since 1780 but not for firearms, but Air Guns. The first rifle to use a clip was the M1 Garand in WWII, and that wasn't a magazine, it was a clip. All the same, I suppose it could jam -- however, the point is, jamming wasn't even a thing until world war 2 with automatic feeding and blow back action chambering.]

TL;DR,

Matchlocks had 100% reliability in terms of not jamming, because they couldn't jam. Jamming is a modern problem that only came into existence some 70 years ago.

It'll also likely not ever go away without slowing down the fire rate. As you notice, jams occur more frequently the faster the rate of fire, what causes a jam? The force feeding of a new round before the old round has completely ejected. Hence why jamming is really a non-issue on any weapons that do not shoot quickly.

This is the reason the SAW jams so much when fired fully automatic. If you slowed down your fire rate, you would have noticed a drastic reduction in the amount of jams occurring.

This also shouldn't be a thing if the SAW was chain fed since there is no "Ejection" of shell casings, just a pull on the chain. This is why chain guns generally don't jam and also have the highest fire rate of any gun on the planet. The only thing that could put a stop to chaingun fire is running out of bullets or twisting the chain and popping it off it's tracks, in which case, it's not a jam, the chain has just been unseated.

This is virtually a statistic impossibility with real chain guns such as the Vulcan Minigun. It really can only happen to magazine -> chain converted rifles like the SAW. Commonly the chain is sat in a box, if left to hang, there is much less chance of it being unseated at the cost of mobility, since the chain is long enough that it would drag on the ground.


On topic of the Ultra AC/5.
A 25% jam rate isn't unreasonable by any means on faster shooting weapons. This is the point of the Ultra AC/5. It gives you the ability to shoot a second shot rapidly. However; the user has the choice to risk a jam, or use it like a normal AC/5.

Ultimately, an Ultra AC/5 has the potential to shoot front loaded with the power of an AC/10. It pretty much makes the AC/5 obsolete even with a 25% jam rate. Even at a 50%, neigh, a 99% jam rate, it would still be the clear choice over a normal AC/5 since it's the same as an AC/5 under normal fire, with an additional option to shoot twice equaling the power of a single AC/10. The jam can only occur if you choose to shoot that second shot, so you can feasibly merc with an UAC/5 without jamming it once. Meaning the user has total control over whether or not they wish to RISK a jam.

Now if the jam occurred under normal fire, this thread would have a purpose, but as it stands now, the UAC/5 is clearly better than the normal AC/5 and would be even if the jam percentage was 99%, because it would still work just as good as a normal AC/5 with the caveat that it has an EXTRA feature that is used at the discretion of the operator.

In other words, this stupid thread is stupid.

They Missfired though ,Sorry If didnt Elaborate on that,I Did not say Jam ,I said Dependable,and yes it common sense that moisture interferes with Blackpowder ,and Haha you knew what I was talking about When I said Rain ,you dont be silly YOU,LOL

[Laokin]

MuonNeutrino, on 22 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I understand that the ability to double tap with that small of a jam risk was probably a bit overpowered. However, is there any possibility that we'd get a greater ability to control when we actually want to double-tap? At this point the problem I'm seeing is that it's difficult to actually take advantage of the gun's non-double tapping fire rate without accidentally firing a split-second too soon and running the risk of a jam. If I could guarantee that my uac5's wouldn't ever jam until I actually made a conscious decision to try and unleash the double-tapping, I'd still use them. Is there any chance of getting either a: the ability to hold down the trigger and fire only single shots, or b: the ability to toggle the double-tap (perhaps on a weapon-group basis, so that you could have one group with them set to single-shot and another group for dropping the double-taps)?

What you are citing here is called lacking in skill.

If you are firing your second shot too early and not waiting until the cooldown is over and activating the double tap, it's because you lack restraint.

It's not the fault of the weapon, it's the fault of the operator. Skilled pilots will be able to use restraint and patience instead of mashing the fire key as early as possible, while still having the opportunity to choose to use the double tap feature at their own discretion.

Slow your roll pork chop, L2P.


For those who still don't understand how to properly use the UAC/5;
The UAC/5 is for "SURESHOT" low risk situations OR last ditch efforts in high risk situations. So what that means is, if you are dueling a mech head on, you don't use the double tap unless it's for sure going to down the enemy mech or you are for sure going to die if you don't.

Otherwise, you use the UAC/5 as if it was an AC/5, or when you have the drop on someone and are at no risk of return fire if you do happen to jam.

If used properly the UAC/5 trumps the AC/5 even at the 25% jam rate.

It's all about choosing the right time to use the double shot. If you're running around using double shot every time you shoot, you're using it wrong and deserve to be punished for it.

Edited by Laokin, 22 November 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Naeron66]

River Walker, on 22 November 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Will I am happy you like the new Junk gun because I be happy to kill you off as you have nothing to shoot back at me with because you are jamming up after every 3 shot.

Not if you are smart enough to only use the double shot sparingly and when its really needed. Its still better than the AC/5 for not much extra overhead.

Lefty Lucy, on 22 November 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree that on paper the UAC5 is still a more-than-viable gun.

Its a more than viable gun in game. Use it like an AC/5 most of the time and then when you get a chance to do some serious structural damage kick it up to full fire rate. I run 2 UAC/5 on my cataphract and in many games that burst DPS has cored mechs or taken out an arm or side torso and stripped a mech of its main weapons. Doesn't matter if you get a jam after doing 25+ damage in a few seconds as the threat to my mech is gone while it unjams.

Edited by Naeron66, 22 November 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[River Walker]

Alexa Steel, on 22 November 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

For the same reason, any weapon system is deployed. It has its place and it IS still usefull, I prefer it over an AC10 most of the time.

Sorry to tell you but any weapon system that is deployed would not Jam in combat or it would get pull Fix or Scrap. A cannon that jam after 3 shout and keep jamming in combat would not make it back because it would get scrap right there with a C4 charge.

Edited by River Walker, 22 November 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Mackenzie]

Laokin, on 22 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

What you are citing here is called lacking in skill.

If you are firing your second shot too early and not waiting until the cooldown is over and activating the double tap, it's because you lack restraint.

It's not the fault of the weapon, it's the fault of the operator. Skilled pilots will be able to use restraint and patience instead of mashing the fire key as early as possible, while still having the opportunity to choose to use the double tap feature at their own discretion.

Slow your roll pork chop, L2P.

Gotta love the 1337 peeps around here. I am impressed that you have the hand-eye coordination coupled with the cranial ability to maintain your crosshairs on the target while watching the little part of the HUD in the lower right corner that shows the 1.1 second cooldown of your AC5's. Or is it that you have a form of perfect timing (like perfect pitch for singers) that your mind knows exactly when 1.11 seconds have elapsed and you can click the trigger again? The longer you wait after 1.1 seconds, the less efficient/effective the weapon becomes. The closer you get to 2 seconds (slowing your roll) the better the AC/5 is. I can not speak for MuonNeutrino, but I try to time it with rhythm, and I get it wrong on occasion. I think MuonNeutrino makes a valid point. It would be nice to be able to toggle the "Ultra" fire capability so in the heat of battle it is one less thing to worry about. I would rather turn it off when I want to so I don't have to look in the lower right and take my eyes off my opponent. It isn't an L2P thing. It isn't a request that would dumb down the game. Hell, it is an option available today on modern automatic rifles. Single fire or three round burst? Single fire or fully automatic. Take your overgrown epeen elsewhere. You have no currency to belittle someone here.

[Squid von Torgar]

Yes but this is BT.

We have weapons that max out at 1Km far insuperior than the stuff we have today.

No ballistic computers, generated lead, fully guided fire and forget munitions.

It was designed in the 80s when the top tech was considered to have been lost through centuries of warfare. You cant argue against cannon, its like a bad 80s B movie or the A team.

Makes no sense but is a lot of fun.

"I pity the fool!"

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 22 November 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Laokin]

River Walker, on 22 November 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Sorry to tell you but any weapon system that is deployed would not Jam in combat or it would get pull Fix or Scrap. A cannon that jam after 3 shout and keep jamming in combat would not make it back because it would get scrap right there with a C4 charge.

Um, not true at all. In fact, this is 100% false. Almost every weapon system deployed that is magazine fed and burst/fully automatic runs the risk of jamming.

The M16A1 Assault Rifle and the M4A1 Carbine both jam a lot under full fire, yet they are still routinely deployed everyday to battlefields around the world.

This is why Kalashnikov's are so popular to rebels, because they jam less.

[Laokin]

Mackenzie, on 22 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Gotta love the 1337 peeps around here. I am impressed that you have the hand-eye coordination coupled with the cranial ability to maintain your crosshairs on the target while watching the little part of the HUD in the lower right corner that shows the 1.1 second cooldown of your AC5's. Or is it that you have a form of perfect timing (like perfect pitch for singers) that your mind knows exactly when 1.11 seconds have elapsed and you can click the trigger again? The longer you wait after 1.1 seconds, the less efficient/effective the weapon becomes. The closer you get to 2 seconds (slowing your roll) the better the AC/5 is. I can not speak for MuonNeutrino, but I try to time it with rhythm, and I get it wrong on occasion. I think MuonNeutrino makes a valid point. It would be nice to be able to toggle the "Ultra" fire capability so in the heat of battle it is one less thing to worry about. I would rather turn it off when I want to so I don't have to look in the lower right and take my eyes off my opponent. It isn't an L2P thing. It isn't a request that would dumb down the game. Hell, it is an option available today on modern automatic rifles. Single fire or three round burst? Single fire or fully automatic. Take your overgrown epeen elsewhere. You have no currency to belittle someone here.

Uh, if you had a toggle switch, the AC/5 would be completely useless. This weapon is specifically designed for people who have the patience to master it.

I never said mastering it was easy -- just that there are tons of people who already have.

In the event that you wish NOT to master it, there is another route you can take;

You could also ya know, make a push and hold macro to shoot it every 1.11 seconds effectively making your own toggle switch. You can do this in 99.99% of proprietary mouse drivers. [i.e. Logitech/Razer/Steel Series mice.] Same with gaming keyboards, [Logitech G series/Saitek/Razer keyboards.]

It takes a whopping 10 seconds to make.

Personally, I don't use ANY Auto Canons.

I pilot a K2 and an A1. I use a Gauss Rifle, 2 medium pulse lasers, 2 medium lasers, 3 tons of gauss ammo and an AMS with 1 ton.

However, with that said, it's still super duper easy to make your own toggle switch for double shot or single shot at max fire rate. It just requires 1 extra button. In other words, you would be making a phantom 7th weapon group.

Edited by Laokin, 22 November 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Kanaric]

I like how there are no patch notes to read. What a professionally run game :/

At least planetside is out now.

[SteelPaladin]

Laokin, on 22 November 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Uh, if you had a toggle switch, the AC/5 would be completely useless. This weapon is specifically designed for people who have the patience to master it.

Uh, no. I am firmly in the "UAC/5s are still pretty cool" camp, but requiring a particular level of coordination to NOT use ultra fire has never been part of the balancing mechanic for UACs. They are a ton heavier, a crit larger, and cost more both for the weapon and the ammo than a standard AC/5. "Oops I accidentally ultra fired when I didn't want to" is a ridiculously stupid idea for a balance mechanic.

[Laokin]

Kanaric, on 22 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

I like how there are no patch notes to read. What a professionally run game :/

At least planetside is out now.

Quoted for truth.

SteelPaladin, on 22 November 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Uh, no. I am firmly in the "UAC/5s are still pretty cool" camp, but requiring a particular level of coordination to NOT use ultra fire has never been part of the balancing mechanic for UACs. They are a ton heavier, a crit larger, and cost more both for the weapon and the ammo than a standard AC/5. "Oops I accidentally ultra fired when I didn't want to" is a ridiculously stupid idea for a balance mechanic.

I just told you how to fix it.

Or do you want me to make you a tutorial on how to make the UAC/5 toggle Double Fire or Single Fire with no risk to accidentally double fire with your mouse drivers, cuz -- I totally will.

And naw, I still think it's fine, especially since 99.9% of gamers have gaming hardware that enables them to do this very easily.

Edited by Laokin, 22 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[River Walker]

Laokin, on 22 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Um, not true at all. In fact, this is 100% false. Almost every weapon system deployed that is magazine fed and burst/fully automatic runs the risk of jamming.

The M16A1 Assault Rifle and the M4A1 Carbine both jam a lot under full fire, yet they are still routinely deployed everyday to battlefields around the world.

This is why Kalashnikov's are so popular to rebels, because they jam less.

Sorry to inform you If a M16A1 fail to shoot in the field and can not be made to shoot in full in combat the M16A1 is removed and replace with one that dos.
Any weapon system deployed that dos not keep to stander of safety is removed and replace.
Ps you do understand their is a difference between a Cannon and a rifle

Edited by River Walker, 22 November 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[Laokin]

You're wrong chap. The M16 was phased out yes -- but only after being in service for countless years.

The A1 was the fully automatic version of the M16, which had a toggle switch, single fire/3 shot burst/fully automatic. It didn't jam in Single Shot, rarely jammed in burst, and jammed occasionally in full auto.

There for, again -- it was the standard in which the M4 Carbine and it's variants were based on.

The M4A1 is solidly based on the M16A1, it's just shorter. This is also the go to carbine soldiers use everyday in the field today. Yes, it jams too.

Basically the M4 replaced the M16 for most operations. The M16 is still used for long range engagements, but they use newer versions/variants than the ones they used in the 60's in Vietnam.

The reason why the M16 was replaced by the M4, is because the M4 was made into a Carbine instead of an Assault Rifle.

Essentially becoming the CQB version of the M16, and since we currently fight extensively in CQB/Mid Range, the extra mobility provided by the shorter carbine proves to allow a soldier to be more mobile and allow the operator quick target acquisition when rounding corners.

This is why they still use M16's to this day for long range engagements. M16's are a staple of the American war fighter.

Edited by Laokin, 22 November 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Naeron66]

Laokin, on 22 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Jamming didn't exist until magazines circa WWII.

[Magazines existed since 1780 but not for firearms, but Air Guns. The first rifle to use a clip was the M1 Garand in WWII, and that wasn't a magazine, it was a clip. All the same, I suppose it could jam -- however, the point is, jamming wasn't even a thing until world war 2 with automatic feeding and blow back action chambering.]

The earliest semi-automatic rifle would be the Mannlicher Model 85 or 91, which were developed around 1890.

Fixed magazines loaded via a strip predate the Model 85 by a few years and were used in a number of bolt action rifles in the late 19th century.

The M1 Garand was the first semi-automatic rifle that was a standard issue infantry weapon.

[Madoc Owain]

Paul Inouye, on 22 November 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Jams? Yes.. as it should. There's a 25% chance of jamming on the 2nd shot (double tapped). If you wait for cooldown it will never jam. This is the risk and part of the backstory that makes up the UACs.

Heavier? The weight didn't change.

More Slots? The number of slots hasn't changed.

Lower DPS? To be expected with a jammed weapon no?

Paul, here's the issue - UAC5 fires multi-shot mode when you hold down the fire button, as well as when you double-tap the fire button. Previous behavior had it firing one shot, CD then another shot if the button was held down.

This is a serious issue and is causing the weapon to jam for me 25% of the time, regardless of whether I want to double-shot or not. Because of the versatility of this weapon, it is in a separate group and fired with my right mouse button.

Unless, I'm missing something..?

[axeman]

Also, M16A1s selector went from singles to full auto with no three round burst. Further anything from the hand crank gatlings to the maxims and all that in world war I would have been able to jam plenty