133 replies to this topic

[Khavi Vetali]

PanchoTortilla, on 23 November 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Forcing you to carry 2 different types of ammo which can explode isn't enough of a drawback already?

It's only a drawback if they actually force you to carry both types of ammo. If you elected to just carry slug rounds, you would have a weapon superior to an AC10 in nearly every way, and tied in the rest. An LBX10 has less heat, less slots, less weight, same cooldown, and better ranges. So, no one would ever fit an AC10, ever. If you wanted solid shot, you would just take an LBX and use slug ammo. The same problem would be recurrent with other LBX AC sizes.

I'm not forgetting cost. LBX is considerably more, but the cost is a limiting factor for a very short period of time.

My original statement wondered how they would implement LBX ammo types without obsoleting basic ACs. That question still stands.

Edited by Khavi Vetali, 23 November 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Onyx Rain]

I posted a way to make lbx-10 better...keep ac10 from being obsolete...and most on the forums poo poo'd the idea whle those in TS thought it would be great, so I don't know....

I think allowing the LBX to shoot a few rounds of ac10 ammo pretty much solves all problems(and it is canon)....Like you could load 1 ton of ac10 ammo and switch fire on the fly...once they are used up though, you are stuck with standard Lbx rounds.... You could even make the ac10 do the same only in reverse...both guns would be useful, but have different focuses...both would be more fun to use.

Here is the thread with my reasons and justifcations if anyone wants to take a look...
http://mwomercs.com/...-ac10-obsolete/

Boggles my mind why more didn't vote in favor of the idea....seems like it was at least better then what we have.

[Lootee]

I got a feeling that's what they will do. Make LBX ammo weigh 2 tons, take up 2 slots, and contain 15 slugs and 15 clusters.

Otherwise you're right, it's just a better AC/10 if you take nothing but slugs. At least until the precision and armor piercing ammo that only regular ACs can use gets added.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 23 November 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[Onyx Rain]

Khavi Vetali, on 23 November 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

My original statement wondered how they would implement LBX ammo types without obsoleting basic ACs. That question still stands.

See my post above and link....

But the short version is...
Make it able to carry 1 ton of ac10 ammo...or 1 ton per 3-4 total tons of ammo. Make it optional, and add a button to switch fire types on the fly. You could even do the same in reverse for the ac10...both guns viable, both more fun to play...just a different primary focus for each....and it is canon.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 23 November 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[DCLXVI]

i voted no so they don't get nerfed. but they are seriously overpowered when its the last weapon in the game that allows you to walk into a group of players take out 2 assaults in half a sweep each and walk out. i miss the good old ultraac5 days

Edited by DCLXVI, 24 November 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Viper69]

The only thing I found the LBX good for is head hunting. You aim anywhere near the head hitbox at close range and you are getting one or two head hits. But until we have pilot effects from head damage its totally gimmicky at this moment. Which is sad because I love the LBX.

[Teralitha]

Phantomewzick, on 23 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Honestly they just need to tighten the spread on it by about 25% and then it would be fantastic.

No.... more like 75%.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

To be honest, the only way to maintain standard AC viability long-term (ie when the other LBX ACs are added) will be to add special ammo types. Ultras will do the raw damage output, LBX will have superior performance across the board (and the added bonus of cluster rounds when you want them), and so standard ACs will just be an inferior option.

When you special munitions, though, standard ACs will come into their own.

AP rounds will be able to crit through armor (which could be brutal, especially once Gauss has its health reduced). Caseless rounds will double the ammo per ton (potentially huge, especially with the larger-bore ACs), though they'll add a chance to jam like the UACs. Precision rounds are bigger (less ammo per ton) but could conceivably act sort of like guided shells (perhaps using the LRM/Streak lock-on mechanic). This could be a huge advantage, especially for the smaller, high rof guns.

The big problem is the timeline. AP rounds could be in use as early as 3053 (3 years and some change from now), Caseless in 3055 (2 years after AP), and Precision in 3062 (so nearly 10 years from now). This will likely prove prohibitive, unless PGI jumps the gun for the sake of balance (something that I actually would not mind, if it made LBX ACs and standard ACs both viable options).

Regardless, until special munition are added one way or the other, standard ACs will be inherently inferior to the LBX alternative. The main thing preventing this from being a huge issue is the fact that only the 10-class will have an LBX version until 3058 (9ish years from now). If the AC10 is the only gun that suffers for it, then so be it. It's already far inferior to every other ballistic gun out there (except the useless MG and possibly the LBX as-is, with shotgun rounds only). The AC5 and AC2 have far higher range and rof (and consequently DPS), the AC20 is barely heavier and does double the damage, and the Gauss has the same number of crits and has drastically higher damage, far longer range, and way less heat. The AC10 is already essentially useless; at least the LBX version will have more of a place amidst the field of standard ACs once slugs are added to it.

[Hood]

Deployed correctly it can be.. you need 2-3 cats with duel loads and it works nicely.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

The people who think LBX10 is good at crits don't know how crits work.

To summarize, each pellet does 2-4 damage (standard damage + bonus 1-3x) on crits, on average 3. You have 10 pellets. Components have 10 hit points, Engine 15 hit points.

On average, you are going to have to hit a completely exposed component with 4 pellets and an engine with 5 pellets to destroy it. Good luck.

Contrast that to an SRM critical hit which does 4-8 damage, on average 6. 2 critical SRM hits will on average destroy a 10 point component, and 3 an engine.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 23 November 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

A Resounding no...

what must be done you cry??? WHY U NO WORK EXPENSIVE AC 10???



Simple, make each shot count for 2 damage instead of 1.


That would be a start, and i STILL dont think it would be anywhere near close to op.

[Truck Thunders]

As far as rendering standard AC-10s obsolete, I thought the LB-10X already rendered AC-10s when it was introduced in tabletop. I have to confess I never played TT myself (my only friends interested in TT games were 40k nerds) but aside from the expense it seems like there was no reason to have an AC-10 when you could have a lighter, smaller, cooler-firing, longer-ranged version just by using an LB-10x with slugs.

I really like Levi's idea -- go ahead and make the LB-10x badass (or way better than the AC-10 anyway), and introduce the special ammo early to make the ACs the customizable option.

Edited by Truck Thunders, 23 November 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Leetskeet]

It's not a primary weapon.

It's not a secondary weapon.

It's not even a weapon that you need to test out.

Stay the **** away from it or risk being one of those Atlases with 2 LBX10's that's completely hilarious and horribad

[Rhae]

If you could switch ammo on the fly for it, that'd be a major improvement.

Although it can work reasonably at controlling lights/mediums for high ping players who have difficulty with other ballistics.

[Khobai]

LB10X just needs to be able to switch between slug rounds and cluster rounds and it would be fine.

[Obadiah333]

I think a tighter spread and maybe a small boost in damage might make it worthwhile. I use one on my light-hunting Dragon, but that's it. I also still use an ERPPC, so you can see how hung up I am on using only good weapons. Once they buff up the inferior weapons, I will be experienced using them, while everyone else will be starting from scratch.

[Leetskeet]

Obadiah333, on 23 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I will be experienced using them, while everyone else will be starting from scratch.

Yeah, whatever makes you feel good, man.

[Psydotek]

Good weapon? Eh, kinda...

Fun weapon? Absolutely!

Double LB10-X on a Hunchback is alot of fun.

[Zelus]

Right now? Absolutely not.

The LB-10X might be more viable after all items receiving a pass through their critical-hit-point rework.
Right now, the 10 hit points per item is just a place holder.

Also, taking an engine down to 0 points doesn't kill a mech.
This really weakens high-critting weapons.

Items like the Gauss Rifle, and XL engines, will suffer to an LB-10X, in the future.

Considering that a Gauss occupies the most of a section, each pellet has a 42% chance of criting, there are 10 pellets, and the Gauss has 3 hit points; the LB-10X will become a Guass-eliminator.

As far as adding slug ammo, while keeping the AC-10 viable, there's a simple answer.
Make LB-10X slugs only do 7 damage.

[Woky]

Khavi Vetali, on 23 November 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

It's only a drawback if they actually force you to carry both types of ammo. If you elected to just carry slug rounds, you would have a weapon superior to an AC10 in nearly every way, and tied in the rest. An LBX10 has less heat, less slots, less weight, same cooldown, and better ranges. So, no one would ever fit an AC10, ever. If you wanted solid shot, you would just take an LBX and use slug ammo. The same problem would be recurrent with other LBX AC sizes.

I'm not forgetting cost. LBX is considerably more, but the cost is a limiting factor for a very short period of time.

My original statement wondered how they would implement LBX ammo types without obsoleting basic ACs. That question still stands.

The LBX family have access to cluster and slug, the AC family could possibly get access to more exotic rounds (maybe some incendiary or long range high speed flat trajectory rounds like a mini guass) these may however take from HVAC a bit some im not sure, but selectable ammo types can be a real game changer for balistic weapons in general. It could also allow them to tinker with balance with out affecting any of the stock builds in game.