133 replies to this topic

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

The LBX sounds really nice, and feels really nice to fire, and it certainly looks like it is doing a lot of damage, but I am finding the AC10 to be massively more effective. For that matter, you could go the other way and the UAC5 is also a lot more effective, so no, the LBX really doesn't have a niche right now. My experience is on dragons btw, so I haven't run two of them or done anything crazy like that.

[xRaeder]

Zelus, on 23 November 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

The critical mechanic is barely in the game as it is, and you're already complaining?

I don't know about you, but I've lived plenty long after having my Gauss killed via critical. Usually my sentiment is, "I miss my Gauss." But it forces me to support my team it other ways (ER Large FTW). I like this mechanic. The sequence of going in fresh, fighting, walking out crippled, and finding a way to continue to fight, is awesome.



Don't get me wrong. Gauss is THE ballistic weapon right now. I think after it has its integrity nerfed, its dominance will be questioned. I think it might take a bit more than just reducing it's health to 3 points, but it will be progress.

You're in an Atlas. You can live longer. But for anyone else a punched through torso means you are dead. I was just using a Gauss Rifle as an example.

The critical Mechanic is stupid because you usually die. Not 100%... but Atlas' are notorious for surviving with one side torso gone. 90% of the other Mechs in the game won't.

[Churzy]

I like that it weighs less than an AC10 and generates less heat... However, it performs worse than an AC5, which in turn weighs even less and doesn't spew C-Bills. So, as it stands now, it is indeed fairly useless

Ideally, it should support ammo switching - but even if it did, would there be any point in using the "shotgun" at all? Would it be any different than the AC10? I think that this would be one of those times where the devs might need to stray away of strict lore/TT rules in the name of usability and viability.

As someone mentioned earlier, Instead of having LBX have two fire modes, they could just make them shoot "hybrid" ammo; some sort of explosive shrapnel slugs that detonate and spread right before hitting the target (instead of spreading when shot). This would increase their effectiveness at long range and put it on par with regular AC10. Also in comparison to the AC10, the spreading functionality could allow the LBX to deal a minimal amount of damage when the shot didn't miss for too much; at the cost of splitting damage on near-perfect hits.

This would make it into an AC10 that is not so bad when it misses (because 2 or 3 damage is better than 0), but not so good when it hits (because 10 damage to a single part is better than 7 damage to that part and the remaining 3 split amongst nearby ones). Should be a balanced trade-off, and if it wasn't, they could just tweak ammo/ton, damage, heat and whatnot.

[Cmdr Harabec]

The spread should be much tighter. At maximum effective range, it should basically have the full of the spread (4/5ths of the pellets at least) impacting on a Cataphract's LT, CT, and RT. Past that the pellets should still have most of their damage but the scattering effect reducing their effectiveness.

It basically just needs a VERY tight spread, like an actual real life shotgun has. This is one of the few games where that won't become overpowered because of the sheer health mechs have and their divided health in components.

It should ideally be able to hit a light's three torso sections at about half of its effective range or so with the majority of its pellets easily, not right next to them, and scaling up. Within 80 metres or so it should basically be delivering all of its damage to a single component on most mechs due to tight spread.

This, combined with slugs, will give this weapon a great place. Just tighten the spread dramatically and you'll see good results from it, I promise. Just a little tightening isn't going to help it much - you have to tighten it to the point it's a realistic shotgun that is hitting the primary components of a larger Mech at its maximum range, or it's not going to have a place anywhere except for using slugs in it.

[Sybreed]

I think having a "flak" effect would be nice, doable and makes the weapon a lot more balance:

target under 50m : targeted part receives full damage
target between 50-120m : damage is split between 2 adjacent parts
target between 120-250m : damage split between 3 parts
target between 250-450m: damage split between 4 parts

and so on

[ollo]

Milkman Luke, on 23 November 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

In TT, it has the option of firing slug or shot, but that's irrelevant for now.

Basically, the LBX isn't a main weapon for opening up a mech's armor. It's a secondary weapon for quickly critically damaging the interior components of a mech. From what I've seen, it's actually pretty good at that now that critical hits are implemented. Basically, it ENDS fights. It doesn't start them.

Nope, crits work differently in MWO, no advantage for MG, LBX etc.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Um if it had the ability to shoot Slug and Cluster. Yes.

That's pretty much it. If you give it slugs, it would be an AC/10 deluxe, if you keep the cluster ammo, it's an AC/2 Extra-Heavy or something like that...

I think the cluster ammo would work a lot better if it simply didn't spread more with range, or at least much slower. Or it would only spread 50-100 m in front of the target, so the spread stays small. As it is, the spread is simply a liability.

If they give it slug ammo, it will be superior tot he AC/10 - unless they adjust something else. FOr example, they could increase it's recycle time by 0.5 seconds when fired with slugs, and lower it's recycle time by 0.5 seconds when firing cluster. (However they'd do that -maybe you need to decide in the mech lab what kind of ammo you want to use with the weapon then...)

[Sybreed]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

That's pretty much it. If you give it slugs, it would be an AC/10 deluxe, if you keep the cluster ammo, it's an AC/2 Extra-Heavy or something like that...

I think the cluster ammo would work a lot better if it simply didn't spread more with range, or at least much slower. Or it would only spread 50-100 m in front of the target, so the spread stays small. As it is, the spread is simply a liability.

If they give it slug ammo, it will be superior tot he AC/10 - unless they adjust something else. FOr example, they could increase it's recycle time by 0.5 seconds when fired with slugs, and lower it's recycle time by 0.5 seconds when firing cluster. (However they'd do that -maybe you need to decide in the mech lab what kind of ammo you want to use with the weapon then...)

but then I'm wondering: What is superior? A single part receiving the full 10 points of damage or those 10 points spread across different body parts. In other words, I would never use the "cluster" rounds as they aren't as efficient.

[BlackSquirrel]

Can kick *** with it on my raven... You do need to be fairly close. Heard it had good scout killing qualities.... Eh jenner legs are tough to kill when they're really really close (No angle to shoot down at them)...Which is always.

But it actually does ok in a support role. (No one pays attention to a raven anyway. The best thing about it vs a regular AC is that you dont need to compensate as much for convergence. Scored over 600 dmg in one round with an LBX and 2 med lasers.

Granted this could be just because i'm in a raven and you get ignored for larger prey.

[New Day]

K2 300XL 2LBX10 4ML = WIN

[MustrumRidcully]

Sybreed, on 24 November 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

but then I'm wondering: What is superior? A single part receiving the full 10 points of damage or those 10 points spread across different body parts. In other words, I would never use the "cluster" rounds as they aren't as efficient.

As I said - there seems to be really litlte value to cluster ammo in MW:O. A slug version of the LBX would simply be superior to the AC/10 (lighter, takes less crits, and produces less heat), but a cluster variant... Seems always inferior to the AC/10. Maybe it would need to deal 1.5 damage per pellet with cluster ammo to make it worth it? They doubled (now 1.7-tupled) the LRM damage per missile, and its damage spread is cited as the reason why it needed that...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 November 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

fitted to a cicada 3m it works fine, run behind enemys and fire, then run to next enemy repeat OR find isolated heavy/assult keep firing and evading, a solo Atlas usualy lasts about 30 seconds in this senario.

it is a viable weapon, but needs to be fired point blank (within 30 meters) for maximum effect

[General Taskeen]

The MW3 LB-X guns are 10x more effective and actually have the range as the intended advantage:

LB 10-X - 1 round of the cluster shot does 18.67 Damage at 520M

To say the "LB 10-X is viable" in MWO is the most tragic sentence ever concerning balance of this weapon, because the PGI Devs have fed people these fantasies.

A Cluster and Spread have the same enhanced range from canon. Every Mech game since MW3 that I can think of has made the LB-X line competitive, by increasing the damage, and making them long-range weapons like they are supposed to be.

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 April 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Oppresor]

I love this weapon to bits; but there is no way on any planet that it should be used as your Primary Weapon for the following reasons:

1. Real effective range is <100.
2. It seems to be fragile, at least it seems to get taken out very quickly.
3. It jams.
4. Reload is slow.

having said all of the above, I use one as my main Defensive weapon on my Atlas (Sniper)and is has got me out of more than a few sticky situations.

[Zyllos]

Oppresor, on 14 April 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I love this weapon to bits; but there is no way on any planet that it should be used as your Primary Weapon for the following reasons:

1. Real effective range is <100.
2. It seems to be fragile, at least it seems to get taken out very quickly.
3. It jams.
4. Reload is slow.

having said all of the above, I use one as my main Defensive weapon on my Atlas (Sniper)and is has got me out of more than a few sticky situations.

I think your #3 point is incorrect. LBX do not jam.

But, the thread's point still stands, the LBX needs to hit with 80% of it's pellets, on average, at full optimal range on a medium target for it to become useful. This also will make it more useful for critical seeking due to pellets dealing 2.0 damage to internal equipment.

The problem with the weapon is that not enough pellets can hit a structure location, once it is opened, unless your point blank on your target. It needs to be able to do this for it to be an effective critical seeker.

Edited by Zyllos, 14 April 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[LordBraxton]

So far 46 people don't know beans bout MWO

[DocBach]

we've got pinpoint accuracy with several giant weapons slaved together. What do I care if I get a critical hit in a location with a spreadshot weapon when I can just blow the entire location off with accurate fire?

[Jman5]

Edustaja, on 23 November 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Actually it's absolute rubbish at dealing critical hits. Each component has health of 10 which means at least a PPC or ac 10 round to the internals is needed to take something out in one shot. Basically you end up destroying the whole section before even damaging a single component.

I'm not going to get into my opinion of the LBX-10s because the discussion has been done to death. However, you are mistaken about how critical hits work.

The fact that not a single person here has called out this poster despite being in a prominent page position, leads me to believe that most of you don't actually know how critical hits work. Especially with regard to crit seeking weapons.

• Each pellet has its own chance of criting
  
• There are 3 levels of crit: regular, double, and triple. The lbx has significantly increased chance to not only pull off a crit, but to pull off a double/triple one (67% for each pellet).
  
• lbx crit damages are doubled. So a 1 damage pellet that crits once does 2 damage, if it crits twice it does 4 damage. If it crits thrice it does 6 damage.

So no, you don't need all 10 pellets to hit and crit a specific component to 1-shot an internal item. You just need a few pellets to hit and there is a good chance they will crit. Just two pellets could take out a 10 hp weapon or trigger an ammo explosion.


Edit: Oh wow, this was necro'd from November...

Edited by Jman5, 14 April 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Smk]

Phantomewzick, on 23 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Honestly they just need to tighten the spread on it by about 25% and then it would be fantastic.

They need to tighten the spread by like 85%. LBX weapons were actually fairly long range weapons. Now we have this buckshot awfulness.

[Sephlock]

Why do people keep saying "Well if it had the ability to fire both cluster and slug rounds"... the problem is that the current "cluster" rounds are poopy.