457 replies to this topic

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

A few things come to mind. Keep in mind that I'm discussing things in broad strokes unless I point to specific examples.

First of all, True born are regarded as being supperior because as warriors (and remember, there society is dedicated to efficient warfare), they are born with better gene stock then a free born, but they still have to prove for the first twenty years of their lives that they are worthy of being in the warrior caste, with failure relegating them to a more appropriate caste or (in extreme cases) death.

I think it is important to note you have admitted their society is dedicated to war. The most horrific, sick and cruel thing mankind has ever done and they are dedicated to it. War is inhumanity, pain, famine, death, and this is the focus of clan society.
Military Glory- that attractive rainbow, that rises in a shower of blood- that serpent's eye, that charms to destroy... -Lincoln

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That having been said, Children of freeborn families are also tested for aptitude, and it is possible for them to change castes if they show an apptitude for it all the way up to warrior caste. Granted, they aren't regarded as being the equal to trueborns and are thus put into defensive roles as second line galaxies, but the fact remains that they do exist and they can be every bit as dangerous as their trueborn cousins.

Extraordinarily rare circumstances, most exceptional members are staying right in their caste because that reinforces to the clans that their ideas of breeding inside the caste strengthens the cast. And what an honor to be chosen to be a warrior, where you too can be taken away from your family and given a shoddy combat training so that a trueborn can kill you as part of their trial.

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Furthermore, the attitude towards freebirths isn't even that clear cut, since some clans treat them extremely well (Ghost bear, Diamond Shark, Coyote, Hells Horses, Blood spirit, Wolf in Exile all springing readily to mind) while others are famously terribad (Smoke Jaguar, Jade Falcon, Vlad's Wolves) and the rest probably falling somewhere in the middle.

How noble of a few clans to let the matter of your birth only slightly hold you back? How many freeborn khans are we talking here, I count one Mary Sue, anymore?

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Besides that, non-warrior castes usually don't act out to a degree that would cause them to get there skulls busted (litterally), since they generally don't have reason to **** warriors off that much.

They sound just as happy as North Koreans, good for them. Maybe the reason they don't protest is because they don't have the right to free expression and the people in charge solve disagreements by killing people who hold an opposing viewpoint.

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Also: The clans are more socialist then anything else, given that they don't really use money and have structured there society so that everyone relies on everyone else.

That doesn't take away from their fascism.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Well their better gene stock still puts them at seconds best at most against the Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere.

Again: not really. The degree to which the eugenics program has effected the trueborn has actually resulted in distinct phenotypes; effectively new specialized breeds (for want of a better term) of humanity.

Mechwarriors: not even factoring in the more strenuous training they undergo (Clan troops come out of training with a ranking equal to veteran as opposed to regular), a typical clan warrior will have the edge in dexterity, reflex and will over a typical IS warrior, so as a result they can usually perform better under pressure and respond more quickly.

Elementals (infantry): are bigger and tougher then IS jar heads meaning they can travel farther, carry more equipment and take more damage to put down.

Aerospace pilots: have had the parts of the brain relating to percieving three dimensional motion improved along with sharpened reflexes.

Now, I realize that I've been defending them ad nauseum without admitting their faults so here goes:

1. Espionage: the nature of clan warfare rendered spying/sabotage a moot point in clan society, so the IS intelligence community was able to do incredibly terrible things to them. This prompted the clans to form The Watch to try and provide a defence, but they are still far and away the worst of all the various factions at this crucial aspect of warfare.
2. Use of conventional armor: Tanks are cheaper to build and maintain then mechs and have long been used to bulk out militaries, but the clans have generally dismissed vehicles from front line combat; better use of them would probably have changed the outcome of at least a few major battles (e.g: Luthien and Tukkayid).
3. Lack of Artillery: Considered distasteful, the clans have for the most part abolished it and as a result been badly hurt.
4. Zellbrigen: What makes them strong is also what makes them weak; the clans were manipulated badly on multiple occasions by the IS by either turning the battle into a trap or a wild goose chase.
5. Scaling: The sheer volume of territory that the clans attempted to take from the IS meant that they generally were stretched by the end of the invasion, and some (Smoke Jaguar) were holding far more territory then they could reasonably hold in light of their losses on Tukkayid. This made them vulnerable to raids by the other clans and/or the IS.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Again: not really. The degree to which the eugenics program has effected the trueborn has actually resulted in distinct phenotypes; effectively new specialized breeds (for want of a better term) of humanity.

This is all fine and dandy, but 1 on 1 the best Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere are better than the best the Clans have to offer (by a HUGE margin). Especially the Phantom Mechwarriors are WAY beyond anything the Clans can offer.

[Wales Grey]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Now, I realize that I've been defending them ad nauseum without admitting their faults so here goes:

1. Espionage: the nature of clan warfare rendered spying/sabotage a moot point in clan society, so the IS intelligence community was able to do incredibly terrible things to them. This prompted the clans to form The Watch to try and provide a defence, but they are still far and away the worst of all the various factions at this crucial aspect of warfare.
2. Use of conventional armor: Tanks are cheaper to build and maintain then mechs and have long been used to bulk out militaries, but the clans have generally dismissed vehicles from front line combat; better use of them would probably have changed the outcome of at least a few major battles (e.g: Luthien and Tukkayid).
3. Lack of Artillery: Considered distasteful, the clans have for the most part abolished it and as a result been badly hurt.
4. Zellbrigen: What makes them strong is also what makes them weak; the clans were manipulated badly on multiple occasions by the IS by either turning the battle into a trap or a wild goose chase.
5. Scaling: The sheer volume of territory that the clans attempted to take from the IS meant that they generally were stretched by the end of the invasion, and some (Smoke Jaguar) were holding far more territory then they could reasonably hold in light of their losses on Tukkayid. This made them vulnerable to raids by the other clans and/or the IS.

We aren't attacking their military structure. Our observations about the differences between the "percived" and "actual" effectiveness of Clan Trueborns are meant as a thrust not against their military, but against their culture. We're attacking their social organization and their utterly repellent world view.

You also didn't address the fact that Clan aerospace pilots are of only 'average' skill, despite the un-ending efforts of Clan eugenics. Gee, it's almost like the biggest factor in determining a person's skill at a task is how throughly trained and experienced they are! Man, I wonder what an Inner Sphere mechwarrior who was basically trained from birth could be like!

Oh wait, they're 3/4 as well. It's like the whole bloodname and eugenetics thing is just an elaborate replacement for a state religion!

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I'm a ******** child who browses 4chan

This isn't a counterargument, GIFSOUP.COM.

Can't even make them yourself, disgraceful.

Edited by Wales Grey, 31 January 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Borias Zarkhan]

Viper69, on 26 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Their power, period. Everything they have is better in every way. That is what draws people. If they say otherwise they are fibbing .

Nope as I like Kurita just as much and for similar reasons. Warrior society, honor (though hypocrite about it sometimes). And also the fact their mechdesigns are kickass.

qultar, on 31 January 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

this is my last post on this topic as the goons have taken it over fully
but i must point out that the cans were out numbered badly
and the ONLY thing that made clan mechwarriors better is they
start training at like 6 unless they are a freebirth

Yep. I only skimmed to a few pages and I think i'll keep from posting too.
For the most part the thread seems to mostly be taken over by people out to troll.

[Sadistic Savior]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

The Clans are still a bunch of Fascists.

Yes they are.

Most of the Inner Sphere is still worse. Fascism > Monarchy/commie autocracy/Dictatorship. As far as I know the Rasalhague Republic and (maybe) Marik are the only things in the IS that could be called democratic.

Most of the Clans give enough of a crap about their lower castes not to starve them for profit, or shoot them for fun, or use them as cannon fodder. They deserve a little credit for that IMO.

[Ashla Mason]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Yes they are.

Most of the Inner Sphere is still worse. Fascism > Monarchy/commie autocracy/Dictatorship. As far as I know the Rasalhague Republic and (maybe) Marik are the only things in the IS that could be called democratic.

Most of the Clans give enough of a crap about their lower castes not to starve them for profit, or shoot them for fun, or use them as cannon fodder. They deserve a little credit for that IMO.

The FWL is a prime example of why democracy isn't inherently supperior to more centralized commands; most of it's history is spent squabbling over anything and everything and it only ever becomes a force to be reckoned with when the Captain general is given the freedom to do with as he or she sees fit. About the only reasosn I can figure that the FRR didn't fall into the same hole was because they didn't have time before the clans invaded and they didn't control as much territory.

That having been said, in the context of the setting I'd argue that it's Innefectual Parliament = Monarchy = Dictatorship = Fasism > whatever the hell the wobbies were supposed to be.

[Cik]

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goons: if you play a "bad" (quotes because they are not all bad) guy in a fictional universe YOU ARE A TERRIBLE PERSON AND SHOULD FEEL BAD

oh no, we're going to hold people to a standard that doesn't even exist in a fictional universe. tip: anything you can say about the clans (atrocities, mistreatment of lowborn, military minded and dismissal of sanctity of life) could be said in spades about any inner sphere power and most of the periphery. sorry, but no one is a good guy, especially not liao. most of you barely know what you are talking about, IMO.

[Ashla Mason]

Cik, on 31 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

oh no, we're going to hold people to a standard that doesn't even exist in a fictional universe. tip: anything you can say about the clans (atrocities, mistreatment of lowborn, military minded and dismissal of sanctity of life) could be said in spades about any inner sphere power and most of the periphery. sorry, but no one is a good guy, especially not liao. most of you barely know what you are talking about, IMO.

Seriously.

House Liao is the only house to the best of my knowledge to engage in slavery of it's people who fail measure up to a test that they take at "maturity", which is hilarious when you note that even labor caste have legal rights within the clan.

[Wales Grey]

Cik, on 31 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

oh no, we're going to hold people to a standard that doesn't even exist in a fictional universe. tip: anything you can say about the clans (atrocities, mistreatment of lowborn, military minded and dismissal of sanctity of life) could be said in spades about any inner sphere power and most of the periphery. sorry, but no one is a good guy, especially not liao. most of you barely know what you are talking about, IMO.

Just you wait. When CW launches, Liao will experience a... shift... in leadership.

[Rannos]

Cik, on 31 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

oh no, we're going to hold people to a standard that doesn't even exist in a fictional universe. tip: anything you can say about the clans (atrocities, mistreatment of lowborn, military minded and dismissal of sanctity of life) could be said in spades about any inner sphere power and most of the periphery. sorry, but no one is a good guy, especially not liao. most of you barely know what you are talking about, IMO.

Playing the bad guy isn't the issue. We goons love that ****. Its when you start actually wishing the real world functioned like clan society, like i know some of these grogs do, that we start having issues. Also doing your sister is just gross.

[Cik]

Rannos, on 31 January 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Playing the bad guy isn't the issue. We goons love that ****. Its when you start actually wishing the real world functioned like clan society, like i know some of these grogs do, that we start having issues. Also doing your sister is just gross.

shrug. if you are on some kind of crusade to cure delusion, i wish you luck because surely you will need a thousand lifetimes just to rid the present of it. why not go pick on house steiner "LOL MERCHANT PRINCES U ALL DELUDED IT WOULD NEVER WORK IN THE REAL LIFES" why pick on the clans? besides, the position you were attacking was never even mentioned in this thread, good sir goon.
note: your signature is adorable, thank you for the laugh.

[Rannos]

Cik, on 31 January 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

shrug. if you are on some kind of crusade to cure delusion, i wish you luck because surely you will need a thousand lifetimes just to rid the present of it. why not go pick on house steiner "LOL MERCHANT PRINCES U ALL DELUDED IT WOULD NEVER WORK IN THE REAL LIFES" why pick on the clans? besides, the position you were attacking was never even mentioned in this thread, good sir goon.
note: your signature is adorable, thank you for the laugh.

What's wrong with merchant republics? :colbert:

[Jaroth Corbett]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Counterpoint: The Clans could never have taken the Inner Sphere. Ever. This also doesn't at all excuse or justify the way the Clans **** over the working castes, or make them not a bunch of murderous Fascists.

Wrong. Operation:Klondike proves you are wrong. The Clans were not written to take over the Inner Sphere or else Operation: Revival would have been written as Klondike was. I shot the **** out of your statement in another thread where somebody else brought it up.

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

This is all fine and dandy, but 1 on 1 the best Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere are better than the best the Clans have to offer (by a HUGE margin). Especially the Phantom Mechwarriors are WAY beyond anything the Clans can offer.

well there is your view and then there is what the people who actually wrote Battletech said a.k.a facts, so I think I will go with them. Again this was proven in another thread, but you keep dreaming, you keep dreaming. ROFL

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 31 January 2013 - 02:18 PM.

[Wales Grey]

Rannos, on 31 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

What's wrong with merchant republics? :colbert:

I will not have you besmirch the Steiner name. Your punishment is to take back the space oil derricks your posting cost us.

[Ken Fury]

Jaroth Winson, on 31 January 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

well there is your view and then there is what the people who actually wrote Battletech said a.k.a facts, so I think I will go with them. Again this was proven in another thread, but you keep dreaming, you keep dreaming. ROFL

Well Kai Allard Liao and Phelan Kell Ward Kell certainly beat every Clanner in every Match they had.

[Wales Grey]

Jaroth Winson, on 31 January 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Wrong. Operation:Klondike proves you are wrong. The Clans were not written to take over the Inner Sphere or else Operation: Revival would have been written as Klondike did. I shot the **** out of your statement in another post where somebody else brought it up.

Cool story bro, shame you never replied to anything I posted...

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well there is your view and then there is what the people who actually wrote Battletech said a.k.a facts, so I think I will go with them. Again this was proven in another thread, but you keep dreaming, you keep dreaming. ROFL

Uh, what? Battletech, as written, provides no special benefit to Clan pilots. I mean, they start at veteran skill levels, but other than that, there's nothing. Also, there has never been a cannonical instance of a Clan pilot using the Phantom Mech skill.

M A L l C E, on 31 January 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

The clans are an ideal "other" for Battletech that is able to avoid being a racial charicature yet still seem different from the otherwise-diverse Inner Sphere cultures despite using similar technology and tactics. They're alien enough to come off as disturbing, while still being human in a universe that has few non-human senient species.

Basically, this. The Clans are the 80's equivalent of the Jihad.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Well Kai Allard Liao and Phelan Kell Ward Kell certainly beat every Clanner in every Match they had.

Kai and Phelan aren't your average mechwarriors.

[Jaroth Corbett]

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Cool story bro, shame you never replied to anything I posted...

What are you talking about? Your point is that the Clans could not take the IS. This was dealt with already in a super huge thread, where using the lore, I proved my case. Can you do the same?

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Uh, what? Battletech, as written, provides no special benefit to Clan pilots. I mean, they start at veteran skill levels, but other than that, there's nothing. Also, there has never been a cannonical instance of a Clan pilot using the Phantom Mech skill.

There are at least three instances where the lore specifically states Clan mechwarriors are superior to their IS counterparts and again whatever you (or anyone else for that matter) say or think up, holds no water when compared to the people that actually made the universe.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 31 January 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Kai and Phelan aren't your average mechwarriors.

Well the Comstars are average. And they won.

Edited by Tank Boy Ken, 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM.