16 replies to this topic

[Abrahms]

Have seen concepts like this noted before in other threads/games. Would be interesting to see weapons interact to encourage weapon diversity (and reflect on possible real life situations).

note: boating isnt bad, and should be viable, it just shouldnt be the ONLY way to go, and if anything, should fall into a niche that makes it inferior to a diverse load out (so, that large laser sniping mech is just that, a large laser sniping overheating mech that owns ppl at range, but as soon as a medium laser/AC10 mech gets close enough, the close range/diverse load out has the advantage)
-can accomplish this is many ways, like heat management, adding incentives to not go pure energy weapons (example: make heat punishment a curve, so a few energy weapons dont do much but more energy = more heat per ton, etc)

The MAIN point, is that some diversity and depth could be added to the game without leaving battletech canon at all if weapons were to impact how other weapons dealt damage. For instance....

1: Energy: do more damage to less armor (so a light mech, or a damaged assault mech, would maybe take 5%, or 10% more damage from an energy weapon: # based on ton of armor present on component)
2: Ballistic: a mech's component that has been hit with energy weapons takes 5% or 10% (hypothetical #s) from ballistic (meaning, ton for ton, the mech with the AC and medium lasers will do more damage than the double AC boat)
3: Missiles: do higher % damage based on the damage of the enemy component (different from energy in the sense that it looks to the HP% left of the component, and not its raw #; in otherwords, the light mech and assault mech at 100% hp take the same damage from a missile, but the light mech takes more energy, whereas a damaged assault mech takes more damage from missiles but the the healthy light mech takes no extra damage, even if the total armor on the light mech's component is still less than whats left on the damaged assault mech component)

As you can tell, these are hypothetical #s with hypothetical bonuses (and small bonuses at that). It plays on the fact that, maybe thinner armor is more sensitive to heat (thicker armor can absorb the heat better and disperse it), that softer armor (from being heated by a laser) is easier to penetrate by a ballistic, and that missiles are great for wreaking damage on damaged components due to their explosive, but less penetrating nature.

Any of these bonuses could be changed due to developer preference, and kept very small to prevent some weapons from being too powerful while using current stats, but an extra 10% damage to a ballistic due to heating up your target first would be very interesting... perhaps too meticulous but none-the-less would lead to interesting gameplay.

edit: someone noted that it would give some loadouts too much of advantage.
1)the bonus is small, so skill would easily be better (only changes equal scenarios)
2)can have a diverse team, encouraging team play. The drawback of a PPC boat can be removed by going with the AC2 boat (now only issue is lack of heat distribution among mechs, but that would be the cost of having long range, unlimited ammo sniping mech)

Edited by Abrahms, 07 May 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Zylo]

I think this might just leave some mech types at a serious disadvantage if they could not mount the best weapon combination to result in maximum damage bonus from weapon diversity.

[Abrahms]

Just a reminder (as I know ppl might storm in here and blow the concept way out of proportion) the bonuses would best be very low... like the 3-15% range (and mostly around 5).

So, after dealing 10 pts of energy damage, a compontent takes 5% more ballistic damage (so if they then get hit with 10 pts from an AC, it does 10.5 damage instead... and the bonus can dissipate over time... who knows, I am not here to balance it all in one post, but to merely point out that adding more dynamics into weapon choice would be interesting.

I'm one of those gamers that loves to check and crosscheck every # and loadout + playstyle to find what is optimal in different circumstances... Not really a fan of "Take all large lasers and your'e the best!"

[Aelos03]

i would like to see using machine gun to shoot missiles that come at you.

[Abrahms]

Zylo, on 07 May 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I think this might just leave some mech types at a serious disadvantage if they could not mount the best weapon combination to result in maximum damage bonus from weapon diversity.

That is why the bonus is small. But, if they are on a team, then isnt it cured?

Cant that PPC boat have an AC2 boat with him? It merely prevents players from going laser boats and single handedly dominating. They either need to mix it up, or mix their team up.

Again, the perks are pretty small, so you're also looking at a 5% or 10% edge, at most, which in a game like mechwarrior is easily overcome by skill (the AC10 hitting for 10 dmg vs 10.5 damage wont win most battles, but a whole team of players really using their skill MAY make a difference with EVERYthing else being equal.

Aelos03, on 07 May 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

i would like to see using machine gun to shoot missiles that come at you.

mechs already have laser defense systems that do that automatically (some variants)

[Zylo]

Abrahms, on 07 May 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Not really a fan of "Take all large lasers and your'e the best!"

How is taking a certain "best combination" of different weapon types going to be any different than your example of taking all large lasers to be the best? It's still going to result in min/maxers all running similar setups based on which weapon combination proves most effective.

[Abrahms]

Zylo, on 07 May 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

How is taking a certain "best combination" of different weapon types going to be any different than your example of taking all large lasers to be the best? It's still going to result in min/maxers all running similar setups based on which weapon combination proves most effective.

Because I'd rather see everyone running 1gauss, 2large lasers, 1MRM30 insteead of 5 large lasers....

Not to say that either is good, but I HIGHLY doubt that everyone would roll the same mixed set up, since its much easier to do when it only takes 1 weapon type in 1 size....

You're more likely to find everyone using all the weapons in the game, with maybe one set up being best for short/medium/long range, and also it will vary base don mech.,.

Basically, I really doubt that you will see the same standard boating procedure of carry all large lasers if a mixture was better because of slot requirements, etc, and at a minimum everyone would be using more of the available arsenal, even if some specs became standard.

Also, it may take a couple more brain cells to experiment, AND a little more skill to fully utilize (since all large lasers is much easier to deal damage with than a mix, as a mix now offers in different weapon travel speeds, ammo management of varying amounts, etc)

Edited by Abrahms, 07 May 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Zylo]

Abrahms, on 07 May 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Because I'd rather see everyone running 1gauss, 2large lasers, 1MRM30 insteead of 5 large lasers....

Not to say that either is good, but I HIGHLY doubt that everyone would roll the same mixed set up, since its much easier to do when it only takes 1 weapon type in 1 size....

You're more likely to find everyone using all the weapons in the game, with maybe one set up being best for short/medium/long range, and also it will vary base don mech.,.

Basically, I really doubt that you will see the same standard boating procedure of carry all large lasers if a mixture was better because of slot requirements, etc, and at a minimum everyone would be using more of the available arsenal, even if some specs became standard.

I think just based on the strengths/weaknesses of weapons on their own without any interaction between weapons you will see weapon diversity. Let someone carry a bunch of large lasers, they will heat up really fast and find their damage output ends up far lower than someone who chose a more diverse setup.

[Jonas]

The only weapon that should have a lingering effect would be the PPC or ERPPC but that is it.

[Aelos03]

Abrahms, on 07 May 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

That is why the bonus is small. But, if they are on a team, then isnt it cured?

Cant that PPC boat have an AC2 boat with him? It merely prevents players from going laser boats and single handedly dominating. They either need to mix it up, or mix their team up.

Again, the perks are pretty small, so you're also looking at a 5% or 10% edge, at most, which in a game like mechwarrior is easily overcome by skill (the AC10 hitting for 10 dmg vs 10.5 damage wont win most battles, but a whole team of players really using their skill MAY make a difference with EVERYthing else being equal.



mechs already have laser defense systems that do that automatically (some variants)

i know lams, but it would be cool that is possible to take out some missiles with machine gun

[Abrahms]

Aelos03, on 07 May 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

i know lams, but it would be cool that is possible to take out some missiles with machine gun

Would be hard to balance, and with server latency it might favor some people far greater than others (missiles are VERY small and travel VERY fast) The LAMS and other automated defense systems cover this fairly well without making LRM mechs useless.

To possibly implement a feature where you could take out a couple incoming missiles with sustained machine-gun-fire in the "vicinity" of the missile could maybe work, and would add more uses to the machine gun (and to ppl that are just sitting at watching LRMs fly in from over the hill) but LRMs are also still pretty easy to avoid with terrains and LAMS. Would need to be something that in the time available could only take out a few of the missiles.

[Aelos03]

Abrahms, on 07 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Would be hard to balance, and with server latency it might favor some people far greater than others (missiles are VERY small and travel VERY fast) The LAMS and other automated defense systems cover this fairly well without making LRM mechs useless.

To possibly implement a feature where you could take out a couple incoming missiles with sustained machine-gun-fire in the "vicinity" of the missile could maybe work, and would add more uses to the machine gun (and to ppl that are just sitting at watching LRMs fly in from over the hill) but LRMs are also still pretty easy to avoid with terrains and LAMS. Would need to be something that in the time available could only take out a few of the missiles.

well i never thought you could destroy all missiles but 1-3 will satisfy because how many time you will see you will get hit and there is nothing else to do why not shot some birds

[Abrahms]

All in all, I would like to see weapon choice really matter.

[Zylo]

Abrahms, on 07 May 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

All in all, I would like to see weapon choice really matter.

I suspect this will be the case with the current system. With only gameplay vids to go by it's difficult to be certain but at the very least it appears an excess of energy weapons will be a bad idea since heat generation seems pretty high with just a few lasers, while going pure ammo based of course has the risk of explosions and ammo depletion.

[Sassori]

Oof another one of these.

Weapons are already pretty balanced, considering we're looking at more armor and more ammo per ton already, we don't even know what sort of weapon balance we're at /now/. This kind of conversation won't help anything since we're already in the dark.

[Lightfoot]

I didn't vote, but generally all weapons in MW do the job just about as fast. However there is some slight varience to the damage model usually where;

Lasers peel off armor best.
Ballistics punch through armor, or try too.
Missiles cause damage that is partially transfered through armor to internals and components.
PPC's try to punch through armor and cause a mild heat spike to the target.

I never really noticed any damage difference in MW4 except with Thunderbolt missiles (high transfer), Heavy Gauss, and LBX (large impact footprint).

[Pvt Dancer]

Not to come across as crass, but I feel your trying to add in a needless mechanic. If you want a simple answer to balance, get rid of Clan tech and leave it as standard tech. This also means getting rid of 'Lost Tech'.

The balancing factor to energy weapons is heat, they produce /alot/ of it. But if you get a Double Heat Sink engine, even a 20 ton mech has 20 heat sinks. Add onto that the making of a clan mech with lighter (less tonnage) and more compact (less critical spaces) and 50% of the time superior performance (better range, more damage, ect), it really does mean that a 20 ton mech can out gun IS mechs twice it's tonnage. That is how the game was broken and it poorly recovered. There is a reason no mechs from 3025 mounted 5 large lasers, because they couldn't survive the 40 heat it produced, much less pack on the tonnage and critical locations needed for 30 heat sinks and 5 LLs.

As for current balance of the game, the Hard-point system helps keep things under control, even if it is an artificial nerfing that the TT game never had. I for one would like to try out putting a LRM 5 system (or two) on a Hunchback for example to give it long range punch for minimum tonnage, but to really do this I would have to go with a Dragon or Centurion as they both have Ballistic hard points and Missile hard points.

The other artificial nerf they could create is the weapon recycle time and reduction of damage into smaller packets (AC 20 is a popular subject of this) and even heat dispersion over said period of time. Cost can also be an artificial way to balance it, by having energy weapons cost two to three times more than Ballistic or Missile weapons.... and thus cheaper to replace from Criticals or when your mech gets blown up (it is not a question of if...if so, your being naive).

Personally, I am ok with 10 second weapon recycle time for weapons, as the guys who are screwed are the mechs with 1-2 weapons (Wasp for example has two weapon systems). This makes heat dispersion more of a balancing effect IMO to make ballistic/missile weapons more desirable.