134 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Aww....... the tears of hate from all the missile boating players. This is good as watching friday night drama! What are you guys going to do without a homing weapon?! Look at you guys crying because you wont be able to cheese people and brag how good you are in missile boats rofl. Heres a tip. Use lasers. It still works believe it or not. Besides that, keep on crying and moanin at ecm

Uh the ramifications go well beyond missiles. It basically kills ALL long-range weapons if you cant detect/target enemy mechs past 200m. Especially since theyre adding in a module that will make you invisible to heat detection. ECM will basically turn the game into a medieval brawl where all fights take place at 200m or less. Its completely stupid.

ECM should not reduce detection range to 200m. The long-range sniping/suppression dynamic NEEDS to stay in the game. At most ECM should reduce detection range to like 600m-650m instead of the normal 800m.

Additionally, ECM should not stop the opponent from locking on missiles, because Jenners do not need invulnerability to missiles on top of everything else.

And yeah BAP should cancel out with ECM somehow... like if the enemy has ECM and you have BAP you should still be able to detect them at the normal range of 800m.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[cmopatrick]

i'm quite disappointed at the number of mechs that can run it. kinda makes the 3L an also-ran. i will still run it, just because of preference, but i expect to get clobbered by the light PITAs and scout hunters (commando and jennie) who now will have my primary weapon...

i don't harp on canon much, but this is the one violation that annoys me most. not going to stop playing, but i am disappointed with pgi over this failure.

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Uh the ramifications go well beyond missiles. It basically kills ALL long-range weapons if you cant detect/target enemy mechs past 200m. Especially since theyre adding in a module that will make you invisible to heat detection. ECM will basically turn the game into a medieval brawl where all fights take place at 200m or less. Its completely stupid.

not to offend, but gauss and ppc units have been targeting WAY beyond lock (greater than 800m/1km for a long time, and that without spotters... using visual only from what i have been told (though some times they use heat). it is the scout/spotter that has the problems, not the snipers.

Edited by cmopatrick, 28 November 2012 - 05:23 AM.

[OpCentar]

Although I don't like this ECM proposal in general, I do like using the MK1 Eyeball targeting system.

But the maps are so small and all approach vectors are well known by now, so it won't make a difference.

[NoRoo]

I'm pretty surprised ECM won't be available on all of the ravens from the get go. :\

[Miken]

I think devs will make upgrade which allow to install ECM to a different mechs, not only listed.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Hmm, I have many thoughts on this. First: The mech will be put into two categories: Direct fire ECM mechs and fast capture ecm mechs. If the ECM will come out like it is written above, the LRMs and streaks will be utterly useless. Streak cats are a problem, yes. But this is not the right way to counter them.

200 meters and double the time to lock on? Everyone will equip the ecm then. This shield is better than any AMS.

In my view, the ECM will work like this:

While the normal sensor range will get an enemy in 750m and the combined sensor range of two mech at 1000m, the ECM might reduce those values to 500/750.
The missile lock on will be doubled and missiles with Artemis will now work like normal missiles and missiles without artemis will be worse in guiding than normal.

Tag-Lasers and NARC should work normal, no downgrade on their effects, because they are direct comm-abilities which should not be disrupted by any ecm. Remember: The NARC-probe sends a direct signal back, while the TAG-Laser is also a very prominent direct access ability.

What I think is more important will be passive sensors: If sensors are passive, enemy mechs can only detect you within a reduced range, but you also have a reduced range. You can still lock on to targets outside your sensor range, if friendly mechs have the target allocated. The bonus/malus stacks with ecm.

The Beagle active probe may be a good counter to the ECM. It will give you the target lock-on-time back to a value that ir maybe 1.25 or 1.33 instead of x2 without BAP. But you cannot detect a shutdown mech with ECM, even with BAP.

Also an area-cloaking from the ECM is not good. Take this out completely. ECM only works on single mechs, not on groups.

Counter-ECM aka ECCM: Take this out too. Counter the normal ECM with normal methods and do not introduce thousand layers of counter-counter-counter-tactics. It just confuses people and forces everyone to build in and ECM. I can already see the results: Everyone will try to get the Jenner or the Atlas and all other mechs will only be fodder and can't do anything than standing by if the have lock-on missiles. All tactics should be valid an mechwarrior is a game with slight adjustments and not a single machine that can erase every sensor signal from everything and also provides cover for the whole group, counters every target approach and still is able to mask everything until you are under 200 m. This is just... no.

[charov]

Hobo Dan, on 27 November 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

All Raven variant's should have this.
and zero Jenner variant's should have this.

imo

^this. Nothing more to say.

[OpCentar]

Shevchen, on 28 November 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

....
The Beagle active probe may be a good counter to the ECM. It will give you the target lock-on-time back to a value that ir maybe 1.25 or 1.33 instead of x2 without BAP. But you cannot detect a shutdown mech with ECM, even with BAP.
....

Yes on BAP, no on shutdown ECM mech invisibility.

ECM requires power - shutdown mech doesn't generate any power therefore all ECM effects are canceled.

[Koreanese]

Damn yall cry more then bunch of girls watching notebook.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Well, you still have your heat vision. So it will not change. But maybe, the range is reduced. Instead of getting them on 200m while shutdown, you will only get them in 150m.

Quote

Damn yall cry more then bunch of girls watching notebook.

We only try to find a good balance. In the end, you can always mount two gauss rifles and shoot the enemy to death with direct fire weapons. The tricky thing is just to make guided missiles not utterly useless.

Edited by Shevchen, 28 November 2012 - 06:41 AM.

[Koreanese]

I cant wait till i see a match between a ecm raven and streak cat. Ill watch it on my leather couch with some popcorn

[Taryys]

BAP should not be completely negate, perhaps allow the sharing of targets, but not affect locking, except for reducing the counter-locking bubble by the 25% while under the affect of BAP.

[MaddMaxx]

If they did not tac the BAP module onto the existing targeting range, it would have been fairly useless. In TT it has a 4 hex range (120m) Sure you could see around corners (figuratively) and get ambushed less but having a longer "R" range was a better choice over-all.

Given that TAG will still work just means more TEAMS will have to be more diverse in make up to assure that a ECM Team does not take advantage of it.

I thought Streaks needed LOS could track out to 200m and still hit? Why would Streaks become useless if you stay "outside" the "bubble"?

It should prove interesting to have to visually detect where those Gauss shells are coming from. Oh wait, we have to do that now don't we..

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 November 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[Lupin]

I am a Jenner pilot and I think it is a bad idea to allow them ECM and steels thunder a bit from Raven.

Did not see this point covered but running along side a mech/mechs without ECM will cover them until they are in range.

Seem to remember seeing topic saying DEV delayed ECM as was to powerful.
BAPS should help counter ECM.

[Gremlong]

This kind of makes me sad =(

I spend over 14 million I believe on the 360, increases scanner range, faster target info and the beagle.

And one piece of equipment that requires no XP to acquire cancels it all out ?

[PurpleNinja]

OpCentar, on 28 November 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

ECM requires power - shutdown mech doesn't generate any power therefore all ECM effects are canceled.

I'm not pretty sure the devs are aware of this.

[Sprouticus]

Ok, some thoughts:

1) I love the ECM/ECCM toggle. It is a great model.
2) Im withholding judgement, but I am concerned about a few things.

• A 180m bubble it pretty big, that is a 360m diameter circle. If you have 2 mechs with ECM you could cover almost the entire distance mechs use to close.
  
• 200m sensor range: reducing sensor to 200m is too much. I would start at 400m. This issue boils down to PUG vs premade. In premades, you will be able have load outs to counter their ECM and 200m would be ok. In PUG's you cant rely upon that. That being the case, you have to go with the less powerful option.
  
• I am curious of BAP and the sensor module increase that 200m. With both it would bump it to 275m. If that is the case then perhaps 300m for the sensor range would be acceptable (420). Also, if this is the case then BAP DOES counter ECM somewhat like people are asking for in this thread.
  
• If an ECM mech turns on disrupt mode or a mech gets under the umbrella while missiles are in the air, do they lose lock? If so you could just run in counter mode and flip on disrupt when missiles are inbound A fix for this would be to remove the change so missiles maintain their track even if you lose lock (like it was pre Sept).
  
• Streaks are getting a nerf (hitting arms and legs now) coming up, so they are not going to be as much of a problem as they are now. Combine this with the ECM issue and they become.....questionable. At best.
  
• And finally, the jenner-D. As has been mentioned by some (and whined about by others), the Jenner-D is a terrible choice for ECM. As VERYBAD pointed out, one of the Dragon variants would be a MUCH better choice.

Overall ECM has the potential to be an amazing addition to the game. Having ECM/ECCM in one module makes it very tactical in nature. The potential for being OP is obvious but it sounds like the Devs are on the right track.


My suggesitons for last minute tweaks:

Change the Jenner-D to one of the Dragon variants
Change the bubble to 150m
Change the target range to 300m (if bap and modules increase range to 375/420) or 400 (of they do not)

[Scratx]

Elkarlo, on 28 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

And there you say a very important thing... I like playing fast Jenners by my own but the later the Day in EU the more unlikely it is that you will hit ANYTHING with a Med Laser. I use them in my Artemis LRM Boat for selfdefense and mostly i got fast light Mechs with them, but when i need them most of the Team is dead or my 8 Tons LRM Ammo are gone. So ping is better.

Without Beagleprobe sniffing Jenner on Steroids with ECM out LRM boats will be unplayable for EU Players, Ballistic and Light Mechs have already big Problems, Energymechs are unbalanced thanks to the DHS nerf (instead of only nerfing the Med and Small lasers).

So even when we don't whine, we will simply Quit playing MWO because it's no fun beeing ***** all the time. So the Big EU Market leaves until we got a EU server, with low Ping. My Impression is: Ping 90-110 Energy/Ballistic Mechs are playable and you can hit something ( around 260-400 Damage) when i hit 130ms my Damage drops below 150 per Game.
Only Chance is then LRM/SRM Boats.

I like Energy Ballistic Mechs, personally i prefer them, but when it gets late they are unplayable and i got ***** and i make a lot of Lagg Damage... i hit Mechs without Damage done. So i use Missle-Setups..

My ping is ~150ms usually and I just did 600 damage in a quad-AC2 Cataphract.

It's not an outlier performance for me, either. If you're sub-200ms it's quite possible to use ballistics, unless you're trying to shoot at fast lights...

[Túatha Dé Danann]

MaddMaxx, on 28 November 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

If they did not tac the BAP module onto the existing targeting range, it would have been fairly useless. In TT it has a 4 hex range (120m) Sure you could see around corners (figuratively) and get ambushed less but having a longer "R" range was a better choice over-all.

Beagle should also provide a tiny little longer target lock after you lost LOS. But yeah, direct line of fire should always be better than indirect.

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Given that TAG will still work just means more TEAMS will have to be more diverse in make up to assure that a ECM Team does not take advantage of it.

So, you suggest to buildup an entire team just to counter one equipment module? Seems like fun. One less ECM by coincidence and your entire team is FUBAR. Seems legit.

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I thought Streaks needed LOS could track out to 200m and still hit? Why would Streaks become useless if you stay "outside" the "bubble"?

Yes, and when you get the target (finally) you'll find out, that the bubble got 7 additional mechs under its cover.

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It should prove interesting to have to visually detect where those Gauss shells are coming from. Oh wait, we have to do that now don't we..

Nope, we use heat vision to see the enemy. tracking down gauss rifles by their vector mean you are already exposed. You assume, that the gauss will miss. I assume, that the gauss will hit. But anyway, we will see how it will work out.

[Khobai]

No one in their right mind would try to tag ecm'd mechs for lrms that barely do any damage. The only reason lrms are half decent now is Artemis and the lack of ECM. Once ECM is added lrms are DEAD as an option.