145 replies to this topic

[Captain Midnight]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

They way I see it, ECM needs three fixes:

1) instead of reducing detection range to 200m it should reduce detection range to 640m
2) ECM should not affect BAP, so that way BAP will increase that 640m range detection back to 800m (making BAP and ECM effectively cancel eachother out)
3) ECM should not prevent missile lockons when its disrupting enemy mechs.

Those three changes would pretty much fix ECM while keeping BAP useful.

those three changes would maintain the status quo of LRM/SSRM topping damage charts in every game all day long.

[Orkhepaj]

ecm should turn back ssrms and lrms to their launcher

[Khobai]

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those three changes would maintain the status quo of LRM/SSRM topping damage charts in every game all day long.

LRMs should top the damage charts. The reason is because LRM damage is spread out across all the locations of mechs. Damage done to arms and legs doesnt really count since its essentially non-lethal. So if a missile boat does 1000 damage and a gaussapult does 500 damage, the gaussapult is still contributing more lethal damage towards its team's total. Thats what players dont realize... all they see is the damage, but fail to understand its not how much damage that matters, its where the damage was done that matters.

And streaks are already being nerfed. PGI said so.

[Rifter]

Orkhepaj, on 28 November 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

ecm should turn back ssrms and lrms to their launcher

Why stop there? it should turn them back to the cockpit of the mech that fired them, and then if it kills it the remainder should redirect to the next closest enemy mechs cockpit.

[Captain Midnight]

Khobai, I disagree completely. Damage is damage. Which is better, an LBX10 or an AC10? What if the LBX10 did 20 damage. What about 40 damage? What about 80? Right now LRMs are doing 80. the fire power on my 3xLRM15+Artemis atlas is like 78.5 or some crazy **** and with a tag it allllll hits. I knock 20% off a medium in one volley and I've two-shot Jenners who were unlucky enough to have a tag on them. I *should* do that much damage? Just for pressing R and then holding down left trigger? Really?

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[Khobai]

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Khobai, I disagree completely. Damage is damage

You are still confused about the difference between lethal and non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the arm does damage however it will not kill them, so its non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the center torso will kill them, so its lethal damage, and lethal damage is the much more important kind of damage. Its the reason why Ive suggested in the past that damage scoring be weighted based on location, because hitting someone in the arm or leg is not equal to hitting someone in the center torso.

If an LRM15 does 27 damage and the damage is spread about equally over 6-7 locations on the mech, only about one-third of the damage that LRM15 is doing is considered lethal. Where if a Gauss rifle hits someone in the center torso then all 15 of that damage is considered lethal. So the LRM15 may do more overall damage, but a large part of it is not the kind of damage thats going to kill you. So again to reiterate, LRMs do lots of damage, but its not how much damage that matters, its where the damage is done that matters. The reason why the LRM nerf was significant, is because prior to the nerf, the missile spread was so tight that many of the missiles were landing in the same location and drilling through torsos. Since the nerf, missiles are much more spread out, and hitting multiple locations on mechs.

Regardless, this is irrelevant to the discussion. Whether or not you agree or disagree about LRMs being overpowered, I hope everyone is intelligent enough to believe that LRMs should have a place in the game, and the fact is that ECM in its current form removes any chance of them ever having a place in the game. ECM needs to be balanced in such a way that it doesnt completely remove LRMs and SSRMs as options.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Rifter]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

You are confused about the difference between lethal and non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the arm does damage however it will not kill them, so its non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the center torso will kill them, so its lethal damage, and lethal damage is the much more important kind of damage.

If an LRM15 does 27 damage and the damage is about equally over 6-7 locations on the mech then maybe only one-third of the damage that LRM15 is doing is considered lethal. Where if a Gauss rifle hits someone in the center torso then all 15 of that damage is considered lethal. So the LRM15 may do more overall damage, but a large part of it is not the kind of damage thats going to kill you.

Exactly, i have had sub 300 damage games in my gausscat and racked up 4 kills, I've also had over 1000 damage games in my LRM support mech and got 0 kills.

Its all about placement and LRM's while they can rack up some numbers suck for actually killing people unless they are already down to structure.

[Captain Midnight]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

You are confused about the difference between lethal and non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the arm does damage however it will not kill them, so its non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the center torso will kill them, so its lethal damage, and lethal damage is the much more important kind of damage.

If an LRM15 does 27 damage and the damage is about equally over 6-7 locations on the mech then maybe only one-third of the damage that LRM15 is doing is considered lethal. Where if a Gauss rifle hits someone in the center torso then all 15 of that damage is considered lethal. So the LRM15 may do more overall damage, but a large part of it is not the kind of damage thats going to kill you.

Mental gymnastics are a sure sign of a poor argument or a flawed ideology. Only people defending OP weapons try to say that more damage is somehow worse than less damage. LRMs are generating more damage and kills than dual gauss K2s with the exception of god tier tournament-grade mechwarriors who can get headshots regularly. Try to think about where this game will be in a year, or where it won't be, with LRMs/SSRMs remaining where they are now.

Good thing ECM is going to effectively remove lock on weapons from the game.

[Kernfeuer]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Khobai, I disagree completely. Damage is damage. Which is better, an LBX10 or an AC10? What if the LBX10 did 20 damage. What about 40 damage? What about 80? Right now LRMs are doing 80. the fire power on my 3xLRM15+Artemis atlas is like 78.5 or some crazy **** and with a tag it allllll hits. I knock 20% off a medium in one volley and I've two-shot Jenners who were unlucky enough to have a tag on them. I *should* do that much damage? Just for pressing R and then holding down left trigger? Really?

Well ur just see that count of damage..but what is more dangerous an lrm boat whit maybe 2*20er Lrm laucher far away or an Ak20 cat in front of you?...and believe or not..he´s also just pressing an Button..*puff* dead mech..and yes..he gots no minimal range or have to lock on first


so pls stopp this whining about this..Streaks got nerfed..and Lrm are just fine as they are..and by the way..some other weapons are dangerous too if the player boats this..like Lasers.(laserboat) Ak (Ak2/5 cathrapact) and so on

[MeerKatV]

Kernfeuer, on 28 November 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Well ur just see that count of damage..but what is more dangerous an lrm boat whit maybe 2*20er Lrm laucher far away or an Ak20 cat in front of you?...and believe or not..he´s also just pressing an Button..*puff* dead mech..and yes..he gots no minimal range or have to lock on first


so pls stopp this whining about this..Streaks got nerfed..and Lrm are just fine as they are..and by the way..some other weapons are dangerous too if the player boats this..like Lasers.(laserboat) Ak (Ak2/5 cathrapact) and so on

Just updating the last section - AC2's (not sure about 5's) will have their knock factor reduced.

[AlexWildeagle]

This is just what I figured. The LRM crowd has enjoyed easy mode for so long that they will QQ forever because now they will actually have to learn how to do more then hit "R" or have a teammate do it for them, then just pull the trigger.

I celebrate the day of easy mode going away!

[Joseph Mallan]

H3rtz, on 27 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

I dont understand, is it in the lore?, All Ravens and maybe the Commando and the Atlas... But the Jenner? the hit-harder of the scouts with ECM? Really? ECM is looking awesome... but with a Lag shielded Jenner is going to be OP.

Seriously? The most popular scout/raider(right now) and you want to ask a question like, "Why would anyone want to to put ECM on it?" Does anyone understand the concept of WAR? I want to kill you as gratuitously as I can, while limiting your chances of returning the favor. So every advantage I can give myself, I will. I expect you to do the same! Then let the best warrior win.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 November 2012 - 05:52 AM.

[cmopatrick]

ECM on the 3L only (at least for now). with it, BAP, and TAG, you can't really arm the mech very well without HUGE sacrifices, but it can do it's job as a scout/spotter/TACCOM. contrary to popular belief (at least some of it offered in previous pages here), it is made for the role. not jennies (they are scout hunters & PITA) and commandos (PITA). since we can not yet mount our spare ECM's to the jennie to prove the point, let me just give a quick example based on mechlab data:
i have a jennie f in my stable that i'm working on (i know, heresy, but my 3L is already master):
138.8kph (plus the elite upgrade), 2mpl, 2ml, 300xl, 1.13 heat, 238 armor, DHS, ES frame, BAP, AMS + 1 ton. if i drop the AMS for ECM... well, that beats the pants off any config i can come up with for my 3L (it's not even close, and because i had expected for a little while now that they were going to do this to us, i have been trying to figure it out).

i would be ok, however, with a limited ECM on the other listed lights... if it were a countermeasures only version... since they are scout hunters by nature, i can understand it as a matter of balance (even though it still violates canon massively).

btw, the boost in weight for tag to 1 ton is not good. not a balance issue for cats, atlases, or awesomes, but the spotter mech gets hosed (imo, of course), but i digress.

[Khobai]

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Mental gymnastics are a sure sign of a poor argument or a flawed ideology. Only people defending OP weapons try to say that more damage is somehow worse than less damage.

Its not mental gymnastics its a fact. You can kill an Atlas outright by doing 36 damage to its left eye. Or you can shoot at both its arms, do over 150 damage, and stil not kill it.

So right there is proof that less damage can be better.

[AlexWildeagle]

Honestly I think they should allow ECM on any mech that does not have a missile hardpoint.

[Broceratops]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Regardless, this is irrelevant to the discussion. Whether or not you agree or disagree about LRMs being overpowered, I hope everyone is intelligent enough to believe that LRMs should have a place in the game, and the fact is that ECM in its current form removes any chance of them ever having a place in the game. ECM needs to be balanced in such a way that it doesnt completely remove LRMs and SSRMs as options.

i think you're going a little overboard there with that. There's still what, 8 mechs that cant carry ECM? Plus all the variants that aren't ECM capable for mechs that can. That's still a lot of targets.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

LRMs should top the damage charts. The reason is because LRM damage is spread out across all the locations of mechs. Damage done to arms and legs doesnt really count since its essentially non-lethal. So if a missile boat does 1000 damage and a gaussapult does 500 damage, the gaussapult is still contributing more lethal damage towards its team's total. Thats what players dont realize... all they see is the damage, but fail to understand its not how much damage that matters, its where the damage was done that matters.

And streaks are already being nerfed. PGI said so.

Shouldn't regular SRMS and LB10-X users not also top the damage charts then? After all, their damage is also spread around.

[Khobai]

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i think you're going a little overboard there with that. There's still what, 8 mechs that cant carry ECM? Plus all the variants that aren't ECM capable for mechs that can. That's still a lot of targets.

Im not going overboard. You only need 2-3 ECM mechs per team since ECM shields ALL friendly mechs inside the bubble, so no mech inside the bubble can be detected further than 200m away. As long as you stay near a friendly mech with ECM you cant be targetted at all by LRMs. So there will be no targets at all for LRMs if ECM is used right.

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Shouldn't regular SRMS and LB10-X users not also top the damage charts then? After all, their damage is also spread around.

LB10X certainly! Cluster rounds should do way more damage than normal AC/10 slugs. SRMs not so much because SRM launchers weigh next to nothing compared to LRM launchers. As a general rule, damage should be proportional to the weight of the weapon system. Also its still possible to point-blank someone in the same location with all your SRMs. So I think SRMs are more or less perfect.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[Fusea]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

You are confused about the difference between lethal and non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the arm does damage however it will not kill them, so its non-lethal damage. Shooting someone in the center torso will kill them, so its lethal damage, and lethal damage is the much more important kind of damage.

As a Support lover, you are wrong. Most 'mechs have their weapons in their arms, so if you knock the arms off, you effectivley cripple the 'mech. Knock that right arm off a Streak Cat. Or take the arms off of a Cataphract 4x or a Jenner and watch its effectiveness plummet.

'Mechs being hammered by LRMs lose weapons and componets faster and overall die faster than the ones that aren't. The only difference is LRMs won't get you (read as: me apparently) a very good kill/death ratio.

As for the question of Jenners with ECM being broken? Have some lasers, when you start getting hit by a Jenner, plant your butt up against a convenient piece of terrain, and let the lasers go to work on the lag shield. Most lights aren't dumb enough to try and match their front armor against yours. So if they can't get behind you, they tend to wander off and look for easier targets. Even with the stock 4 lasers on my Cat and the stock 15s, I have never actually had to duel a light for more than a couple of passes before they get bored and wander off to look for someone else to deal with.

And If you're in a brawl with no convenient way to lean up against a wall? Then your lance mates should be close enough to cover you and dissuade him. If you're in a brawl with no convenient way to lean against a wall and no lance mates... You were probably going to die either way. The ECM is not going to be the deciding factor. Being out numbered in the open is going to be what kills you.

Edited by Fusea, 28 November 2012 - 06:14 AM.

[Vila deVere]

Raven should be the only light with ECM, IMO.