249 replies to this topic

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

You mean easy to use like lasers are? i mean really how hard is it to put cross hairs over a target and pull the trigger sir? Now depending on your reflexes and how fast or slow a target is may increase how much twitch action you have to have but seriously, you actually think shooting lasers at a target you can see is harder than firing on a Mech over a hill that your friend is trying not to be killed by? It's not, it's just faster.



Word of Blake will be using this in a few decades. I hope to still be playing then to see if i can defeat them too.

You know I would think the same thing! But watching others in spectator mode, opponents or teammates shooting them is a whole other story. Often the beam duration does not remain on the target mech completely, and more rarely on the same component, spreading the damage across LA, LT, CT, RT and RA. Also, Lasers are very HOT and I see many pilots shut down due to this and get killed. That or not be able to shoot waiting for their mech to cool down a bit for the next shot. LRMs are considerably cooler and heat is not constantly an issue.

Can you vouch your entire team shoots lasers (potentially coming from 2 different reticules) consistently hits a target on a single large component like the CT?

[Joseph Mallan]

well the heat of LRMs kinda leaves with the rocket so I can understand why its not as hot as a laser or ballistic propellant.

I can't say that for my team and Missiles or even ballistics so the question is kinda moot. LRMs cannot do that at all, and Streaks need to fix that one catch. However, I see that Streaks do the same damage as a medium laser. They also converge like a laser with less heat than a laser...
...
...
so they only only one point better than a Medium laser. but take into account you have to carry one ton of explosive ammo, and it weights 50% more than a medium laser and I don't see the Streak being much better than a medium laser if it is really better at all. Now a streak 4 or 6... those are nice weapons! A Swayback is scarier to me than a StreakCat.

[RedHairDave]

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

I do some programming. However, I would never bot nor have the experience to do so. Again, just supporting a point with an example.

That being said, I agree that hit% is lower on LRM. However, initial DPS is higher to buff this(Damage/missile).
Also, I am not arguing effectiveness of LRM over direct fire, overall. I think they are relatively close.

My argument is simply that they are easier to use to damage opponents. This does not correlate directly with hit% since I'm making the assumption for this that they are relatively close in effectiveness regardless how often either method actually hits. In other words,locked fired weapons are easier to do damage than direct fire in general. And most definitely initially. A new person can be more effective with LRMs than direct fire initially. People who have lag issues or 4FPS bug issues use LRMs effectively when this is not possible with direct fire. That alone speaks volumes.

I can't believe this is actually a debate. Please support arguments with examples at least. I would be happy to change my opinion if the argument can be supported.

i dont know what to put up as evidence. i have no more issue hitting direct than indirect. if anything indirect needs more effort. if you lose lock when the missiles are on the way, they all miss. when i pull the trigger on gauss or any laser or ppc, it hits exactly where i want it to. i still cant see one being harder than the other. there is nothing to consider when firing direct, if you see him, you hit him. with lrm, you need to consider how many ams there are at the target area, and how many on the way there. then if you will maintain lock the whole time(los and what not) also if the target is going to fast. trying to time shots for when they are done a turn, not just starting one as the arrival time of your missiles. i just cant see how you think one is easier than the other. its comparing apples to other apples from the same bag.

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

You know I would think the same thing! But watching others in spectator mode, opponents or teammates shooting them is a whole other story. Often the beam duration does not remain on the target mech completely, and more rarely on the same component, spreading the damage across LA, LT, CT, RT and RA. Also, Lasers are very HOT and I see many pilots shut down due to this and get killed. That or not be able to shoot waiting for their mech to cool down a bit for the next shot. LRMs are considerably cooler and heat is not constantly an issue.

Can you vouch your entire team shoots lasers (potentially coming from 2 different reticules) consistently hits a target on a single large component like the CT?

so because there are terrible players out there that have trouble hitting with direct fire, you see lrm as to easy. i see lots and lots of lrm boats get less than 100 damge by firing at target that they dont keep lock on. then watch their expensive ammo splash into terain,

Edited by RedHairDave, 29 November 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[Kurayami]

this is still alive i see.
lrms are user friendly but tricky. sure you can tell some newb to just wait for lock and then fire away and this will work for some degree. aside from sad fact that most of missiles will miss, and those which will hit will hit wrong target in wrong area etc and in the end newb will be left with great glowing red minus result for battle no matter win or lose since rearm is a *****.

so lets increase skills. by doing so we will see less wasted ammo and right targets being hit right? WRONG. because said upgraded newb doing only half of the job - he will still need at least a spotter so he will see targets. he will need said spotter with tag to maximize efficiency and spotter should be skilled enough to find, choose, lock, command, and stay alive fro the duration. or at least a good commander and somehow decent team who will not forget to R, call target, and keep it locked for the missiles.

now lets assume that we have perfectly skilled set of boat, spotter, commander etc this should work right? NOPE. because you enemy is a premade moving in tight group with ams cover, protected from scouts by hunter and using cover. and lets not forget that somewhere in the middle of the road we decided to use artemis - say hello to x2 rearm.

so in the end yes - lrms are extremely easy to use against low skill\noncoordinated opponents (and by those i mean both pugs AND premades) but they are hardly efficient and require a very good team with specific skillset and expensive equipment to actually perform as intended.

So lets see about direct fire. lets give noob ac5 (i dont want to start on gauss). lets tell him "see mech? reticule to center - shoot" he will obviously miss at least half of the times. not so user friendly if you are a cod\bf player but still somehow effective and boy that is cheap.

so lets up his skills. and miraculously newb learns to lead targets. efficiency will rise drastically! and it is still cheap! also at this point he is wery close to initial lrm solo user lvl.
lets do it again and said newb learns to target specific location - wow he is almost a killer! and it is still cheap and he can do it totally alone! efficiency is somehow better than that of experienced solo player since lets be honest - newb can now kill. again - and he even better. again - better. in the end solo direct fire weapons outperform indirect fire groups while still staying cheap as meth *****.

TL:DR balance and skill is a complex thingys and if you don't like something it is your problem and not the balance more often than not.

[FerretGR]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

A Swayback is scarier to me than a StreakCat.

This a million times over.

[Utilyan]

I made a 5 alpha swayback on caustic valley. This mech made me feel so dirty, I don't usem. Its just so wrong blowing away two cataphracts in 2 on 1 fight.

I'd hate to see a hero variant of the forpy. Its the mech i'd hand to a complete noob.

If you use this mech exclusively and always on the top of the list......shame on you.

If using LRMs is easier, man someone please show me what im doing wrong.

When its all said and done, it not gonna matter who's kicking who's butt, its about looking good, what matters is making the coolest mech.

[Murphy7]

I cannot leave this alone, and would proffer the following distinction: individual skill vs. group skill.

Assuming the OP is speaking of individual accomplishment, I am inclined to agree to a point. There are pilots who will happily break their scapula to pat themselves on he back for their KDR, damage totals, kills while boating LOWSs. It s not the weapon systems, it is the pilot attitude that annoys me.

In terms of group mechanics, LOWSs at both long and short ranges have enormous tactical utility to a coordinated group. LRM support, whether direct or indirect, SSRMs in close support and anti-scout duty is an important counter that can and should be applied judiciously.

[Captain Midnight]

Everyone who says this isn't a twitch game is lying to themselves, because with the sole exception of LOWS every OTHER weapon is a twitch weapon! Anyone who says it's as easy to hit with direct fire as with LRMs is also lying. I mean, really? You'll say anything and ignore all the facts. Let's see how easy it is to hit with direct fire once ECM comes out and you can't use your crutches anymore :-)

Everything you have to do to use LRMs you have to do with direct fire as well. If LRMs hit a mountain no one bats an eye, if a gauss catapult shot a hill people would laugh him out of his premade.

ED: I think you guy who love lock on weapons and wish this game was MPBT are going to ruin this game then jump ship to mechwarrior tactics because that's the game you actually want to play. This game isn't that. This is mechwarrior, not battletech.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 30 November 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[dF0X]

Captain Midnight, on 30 November 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Everyone who says this isn't a twitch game is lying to themselves, because with the sole exception of LOWS every OTHER weapon is a twitch weapon! Anyone who says it's as easy to hit with direct fire as with LRMs is also lying. I mean, really? You'll say anything and ignore all the facts. Let's see how easy it is to hit with direct fire once ECM comes out and you can't use your crutches anymore :-)

Everything you have to do to use LRMs you have to do with direct fire as well. If LRMs hit a mountain no one bats an eye, if a gauss catapult shot a hill people would laugh him out of his premade.

ED: I think you guy who love lock on weapons and wish this game was MPBT are going to ruin this game then jump ship to mechwarrior tactics because that's the game you actually want to play. This game isn't that. This is mechwarrior, not battletech.

I thought premades were these no-obligations, fun, inviting group of fellow players? I didn't realize they were epeen mongers.

Or is it just that a premade player never misses?

This game is far from twitch.

[Captain Midnight]

If "Twitch" means actually aiming your weapons then with the exception of LOWS it is a twitch game. I think even without LOWS this game would be far from the twitch you see in other FPS and combined with the mech lab I'd say this game is really more akin to an FPS version of EVE Online. The only way for this game to succeed is if skill is rewarded, there is a reason that auto aim never miss weapons in OTHER games are only achieved using third party programs (SSRMs in any other game would be called hacking).

LRMs just promote camping because for how easy they are to use combined with their damage you can't go out and "outplay" an LRM, you just die to the combined indirect fire. LRMs are why every game of caustic valley is either a 3 line rush or an E5 campfest. LRMs are why that is that way. And campfests suck. I don't want this to be a mindless brawl but I also don't want it to be a mindless campfest until someone gets bored, tries to do something interesting, get's shredded by LRMs, then his team collapses because they are outnumbered. The reason the strategies in this game are so one-dimensional is because LRMs are too easy to use and don't have a skill component. If direct fire were king then people could go "bad" routes and win by being better shots, whereas right now the map strategies are stagnant and I don't see a change unless LRMs take a fat nerf.

Most people in this thread equate having skill = twitch. This game is supposed to simulate you driving a mech, it's not an RPG where you play as an elite mechwarrior. You ARE the mechwarrior, you're as good as you are. That's the point of a simulator. HAWX for example would be a flight simulator RPG where the game is simulating you being an ace pilot who can do anything, whereas an ACTUAL flight simulator is simulating a plane that you are piloting and is a lot harder and takes skill, for example?

Edited by Captain Midnight, 30 November 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[dF0X]

Captain Midnight, on 30 November 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

If "Twitch" means actually aiming your weapons then with the exception of LOWS it is a twitch game. I think even without LOWS this game would be far from the twitch you see in other FPS and combined with the mech lab I'd say this game is really more akin to an FPS version of EVE Online. The only way for this game to succeed is if skill is rewarded, there is a reason that auto aim never miss weapons in OTHER games are only achieved using third party programs (SSRMs in any other game would be called hacking).

LRMs just promote camping because for how easy they are to use combined with their damage you can't go out and "outplay" an LRM, you just die to the combined indirect fire. LRMs are why every game of caustic valley is either a 3 line rush or an E5 campfest. LRMs are why that is that way. And campfests suck. I don't want this to be a mindless brawl but I also don't want it to be a mindless campfest until someone gets bored, tries to do something interesting, get's shredded by LRMs, then his team collapses because they are outnumbered. The reason the strategies in this game are so one-dimensional is because LRMs are too easy to use and don't have a skill component. If direct fire were king then people could go "bad" routes and win by being better shots, whereas right now the map strategies are stagnant and I don't see a change unless LRMs take a fat nerf.

Most people in this thread equate having skill = twitch. This game is supposed to simulate you driving a mech, it's not an RPG where you play as an elite mechwarrior. You ARE the mechwarrior, you're as good as you are. That's the point of a simulator. HAWX for example would be a flight simulator RPG where the game is simulating you being an ace pilot who can do anything, whereas an ACTUAL flight simulator is simulating a plane that you are piloting and is a lot harder and takes skill, for example?

twitch <> skill, twitch = twitch.

Eve is a terrible example if you're trying to convince us that MWO is twitch. Take a look at something like Tribes for a little better example (even though Tribes does require some thought).

Twitch, to me, means that a split second decision, or reflex error is the difference between full health and death. Twitch, to me, means run and gun tactics, die and respawn, rinse and repeat, and do it as fast as possible to earn your precious KDR. This isn't MWO.

Twitch means your twitch reflexes determine the winners vs the losers. That isn't skill. It just isn't. besides that, MWO doesn't fit into that category. Sure you have to aim, but Fallout NV isn't twitch, and you have to aim in that too.

Edited by Desrtfox, 30 November 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Captain Midnight]

I'm not trying to convince you this game is twitch, I'm trying to convince you that needing to aim weapons in order to succeed is NOT twitch, and that this game is like EVE Online with an FPS element rather than Counter-strike with an EVE Online element. Just because I don't like LOWS doesn't mean I want this to be a twitch game, and I don't think requiring good skills to get good results means twitch.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 30 November 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[anonymous175]

They should look at how skill is handled in LoL.

[dF0X]

Captain Midnight, on 30 November 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

I'm not trying to convince you this game is twitch, I'm trying to convince you that needing to aim weapons in order to succeed is NOT twitch.

OK, fine. My bad

You know, you do have to aim SSRMS and LRMS though right? You also have to maintain lock on those too. TO me, they seem fine, like most of the weapons in MWO they have pluses and minuses.

[Captain Midnight]

Desrtfox, on 30 November 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

OK, fine. My bad

You know, you do have to aim SSRMS and LRMS though right? You also have to maintain lock on those too. TO me, they seem fine, like most of the weapons in MWO they have pluses and minuses.

If other weapons were just as easy as SSRM/LRM you'd see other weapons getting so many kills and damage so consistently. Atlas DDC with 3xLRM15+Artemis who turns off rearm is going to get like 1,000 damage and 4+ kills every single game with no skill required. That same atlas with SRM6 and UAC5s has the same potential damage but it would take an amazing pilot to read that damage.

If you get less than 500 damage and 3 kills in an SSRM A1 you ought to be ashamed because you are truly one of the worst players in the game for example, whereas if a Gauss catapult did that I would consider that pretty decent.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 30 November 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[Kobold]

For all my strident posts in the ECM threads, I actually agree somewhat with the premise of the thread. Streaks are too good because they do something they were never supposed to do, which is auto-hit. LRMs are good, but at least they have some drawbacks (slow flight time that lets you get to cover, for example). I think they would be fine if they did a little less damage (like 1.5).

[dF0X]

Captain Midnight, on 30 November 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

If other weapons were just as easy as SSRM/LRM you'd see other weapons getting so many kills and damage so consistently. Atlas DDC with 3xLRM15+Artemis who turns off rearm is going to get like 1,000 damage and 4+ kills every single game with no skill required. That same atlas with SRM6 and UAC5s has the same potential damage but it would take an amazing pilot to read that damage.

Like I said, pluses and minuses. Most of the problem with lock on weapons right now is the terrible netcode making leading properly very difficult and random.

In my, humble, opinion, there is no worthwhile conversation to be made about weapon balance until the netcode is SERIOUSLY improved.





Also, skill is required by the LRM boats to stay away from direct fire and short range engagements. You do close on LRM boats right? Maybe more skill is being employed here than you think.


Also, SSRMS are indeed meant to hit 100% once locked.

Edited by Desrtfox, 30 November 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[Captain Midnight]

Desrtfox, on 30 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Like I said, pluses and minuses. Most of the problem with lock on weapons right now is the terrible netcode making leading properly very difficult and random.

In my, humble, opinion, there is no worthwhile conversation to be made about weapon balance until the netcode is SERIOUSLY improved.





Also, skill is required by the LRM boats to stay away from direct fire and short range engagements. You do close on LRM boats right? Maybe more skill is being employed here than you think.


Also, SSRMS are indeed meant to hit 100% once locked.

SSRM in tabletop did NOT hit 100% of the time, they just didn't fire if you rolled a miss. So a "miss" in tabletop meant you didn't deal damage and didn't use ammo. Not always hits without rolling dice 100% of the time. SSRMs in this game are an abomination.

Also, you think that no other weapon needs situational awareness? A jenner can circle of death a Gauss Catapult pretty freakin' well I'd say. PPCs too. Hell all ballistics suck close range thanks to convergance. An AC2 cataphract is just as vulnerable as LRMs are except they have to AIM THEIR GUNS to apply damage. EVERY weapon needs situational awareness and positioning, they just need to aim as well. LRMs are easy mode and do all the damage of real weapons with none of the work, which is stupid.

Maybe we could keep LRMs "powerful" by even upping the damage by like 20% so they are DEVASTATING if they hit, but lower travel time by 30-40% so landing a hit is really hard? Then it still takes no skill but your opponent has to have no skill either to get hit, nice and fair :-)

[dF0X]

Captain Midnight, on 30 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

SSRM in tabletop did NOT hit 100% of the time, they just didn't fire if you rolled a miss. So a "miss" in tabletop meant you didn't deal damage and didn't use ammo. Not always hits without rolling dice 100% of the time. SSRMs in this game are an abomination.

Also, you think that no other weapon needs situational awareness? A jenner can circle of death a Gauss Catapult pretty freakin' well I'd say. PPCs too. Hell all ballistics suck close range thanks to convergance. An AC2 cataphract is just as vulnerable as LRMs are except they have to AIM THEIR GUNS to apply damage. EVERY weapon needs situational awareness and positioning, they just need to aim as well. LRMs are easy mode and do all the damage of real weapons with none of the work, which is stupid.

Maybe we could keep LRMs "powerful" by even upping the damage by like 20% so they are DEVASTATING if they hit, but lower travel time by 30-40% so landing a hit is really hard? Then it still takes no skill but your opponent has to have no skill either to get hit, nice and fair :-)

Once you achieved a lock through dicerolls, they did hit 100%. We have a lock mechanic in MWO, it isn't a diceroll because this game isn't supposed to be based on random rolls right?

Read this part (I like how you skipped this part entirely) **** Lock on weapons are a problem right now due to the terrible netcode that makes leading random and impossible to predict consistently, therefore discussing weapons balance when it comes to lock on vs aimed weapons is an impossibility until the netcode is fixed ****

Also, really, aiming <> skill

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Midnight, on 30 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

SSRM in tabletop did NOT hit 100% of the time, they just didn't fire if you rolled a miss. So a "miss" in tabletop meant you didn't deal damage and didn't use ammo. Not always hits without rolling dice 100% of the time. SSRMs in this game are an abomination.

Also, you think that no other weapon needs situational awareness? A jenner can circle of death a Gauss Catapult pretty freakin' well I'd say. PPCs too. Hell all ballistics suck close range thanks to convergance. An AC2 cataphract is just as vulnerable as LRMs are except they have to AIM THEIR GUNS to apply damage. EVERY weapon needs situational awareness and positioning, they just need to aim as well. LRMs are easy mode and do all the damage of real weapons with none of the work, which is stupid.

Maybe we could keep LRMs "powerful" by even upping the damage by like 20% so they are DEVASTATING if they hit, but lower travel time by 30-40% so landing a hit is really hard? Then it still takes no skill but your opponent has to have no skill either to get hit, nice and fair :-)

You realize that no lock/no fire is the same as what is happening in the MMO? The SSRM does not fire unless a solid lock is active(ie successful to hit roll!). So 100% of the time Your SSRMs hit the target.

Maybe you should turn in your commission Captain. Cause you seem to not know what is and isn't working properly.