249 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 29 November 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

How about the fact that with LRMs you do not have to expose yourself to enemy fire but with everything else you do. That is the real perk of the LRM IMO. The fact that they do more damage than pretty much everything else in the game is just crazy.

Regardless of however the weapons are balanced, the best players will use the best equipment and roll noobs. It's just making the game a big snooze fest because they have buffed LRMs to the point that nobody wants to come out from cover to actually fight. Less fun = Bad.

How about with LRMs you don't do damage to the enemy when they are in your minimum range. That is a 180 M radius that LRMs can't do a thing, and that range is 2/3 the range of a medium laser. So those Jenner that warp across the battle field... They can fight a miss managed Missile boat with impunity. Not knocking the fact, it is what it is. LRM20s do more DpS than all but the Ultra AC5 BTW.

Hey Plat,
You missed the part about having to maintain weapons lock while missiles are in flight. Keeping the crosshairs on the target the whole flight time or missiles miss. Not that I am knocking learning to lead a target as a skill. but it only takes a few shots to get the right cadence. Where as target lock can never be assured. Just sayin, there are hard things and easy thing with every weapon. I can put a Gauss slug in a Mechs eye at 1200M My Missiles detonate harmlessly at 1000M.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 November 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

How about with LRMs you don't do damage to the enemy when they are in your minimum range. That is a 180 M radius that LRMs can't do a thing, and that range i2 2/3 the range of a medium laser. So those Jenner that warp across the battle field... They can fight a miss managed Missile boat with impunity. Not knocking the fact, it is what it is. LRM20s do more DpS than all but the Ultra AC5 BTW.

Very true. Lone missile boats with no backups are vulnerable. Most often this is effectively combated in two manners:
1) LRM boats support each other, keeping at least 180m apart with LOS to fire at any pests.
2) Boats can stay near the group and get support that way via teamwork.
Pubbing as a missle boat is not realized here. Some pub groups are just awful, and 1 or 2 is not possible.

But then again I am not a proponent of pubbing either.

[RedHairDave]

Obeast, on 29 November 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Complete and utter reading failure.

SRM6's are missiles? Damn I didn't realize........................

The point being made (which is clearly lost on you) is that Lock On Missiles are complete easy mode. People who use them should have an asterisk (like Barry Bonds!) beside their damage done indicating they were playing on what essentially is "Arcade Mode" in a Sim game.

everything is easy mode. all weapons are easy to hit with, im sure there are those very far from servers and what not that have terrible ping and cant hit with direct fire. but thats not a skill issue, on their screen, im sure every shot is going right into the target. its very easy to hit with everything.

being in a lock on mech is no harder, or eaiser than a direct fire mech. i play both and a mix, no change in anything. sure lrm's get better damage, but all over. if they just removed damage done stats, this wouldnt be an issue.

[Joseph Mallan]

I was a dedicated Missile Boat Captain for a bit over 2 months. I didn't think fire support was going to be my nitch. I was a brawling monster on TT. I have a better computer now than when I started MWO, and i acn do more than just spam missiles. I can spam lasers and Autocannons and mix and match, and you know what I found using all the weapons this game has to offer? None are hard to use. None. They have their skills that separate one from the other but in the end. All are simple to use. They all have a place in a combat sim game, and those who QQ cause this weapon is X and my weapon of choice is better. Here's a tip for you, Your weapon of choice is better for you, and if you have to try to do away with someone else's preferred weapon, you are lacking skills. Cause I have killed with everything we have at our disposal, and I want weapons to be even more powerful. Cause if we nerf our ability to do damage at range the Clans will kill us from the shade, before we even see them!

[RedHairDave]

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

This is the only reason why I don't support a big nerf. I dislike LRMs but the tactics they introduce to the game are necessary and make for a better game dynamic. Making them relatively easy to use is an annoyance to me but if it keeps newbs and people with lag/fps issues happy for a little bit of OP then so be it.

Last night I ran my 2LRM20,UAC5,2LrgLas atlas to confirm support yet again on the ease of use. When in proper position, LRM targeting is like taking candy from a baby. Loss of lock was inconsequential and support while other teammates were engaging was very deadly and effective. In fact, it was so easy and effective I could keep an LRM lock on one target to support a teammate and aim with my UAC5/2LrgLas at a whole new target at the same time. I think that outlines the ease of use point nicely.

i often have a very easy time shooting anyone with anything also, in my direct fire mech i often target 2 different targets also, say gauss at sniper in the distance and lasers on close hunchback right shoulder. its all easy. i dont see the differance between direct and lock on for difficulty. except ams umbrella will crush lrm spam hard, and there is nothing you can do to stop direct fire, so really, it sounds like direct fire is easy mode if there is one at all.

[Joseph Mallan]

I just mentioned this in a PM. As a young Boot Marine my first billet in my fire team was the teams Grenadier. I was both direct and indirect fire as the grenade launcher could lob rounds over walls and low hill.

So there I am an Infantry Marine, in the thick of combat able to lob damage at the enemy indirectly as well as directly with a max range of 400M... But indirect fire is for sissies right? And the Mk-19 could fire 2,200M indirectly or 1,500m for a "point target". But again that weapon is for sissies right?

[IamSeanConnery]

RedHairDave, on 29 November 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

i often have a very easy time shooting anyone with anything also, in my direct fire mech i often target 2 different targets also, say gauss at sniper in the distance and lasers on close hunchback right shoulder. its all easy. i dont see the differance between direct and lock on for difficulty. except ams umbrella will crush lrm spam hard, and there is nothing you can do to stop direct fire, so really, it sounds like direct fire is easy mode if there is one at all.

More specifically (per my previous example), LRMS are so easy to shootthat I can lock, hold down the LRM group button on Target A and forget about it, then move on to actually aiming at Target B at the same time. The key concept here is LRMs I can forget about as they fire while I must keep tracking and aiming with the remainder of my weapons. That is not possible in the other direction.

Think of in in this way..Which would be easier to code, an LRM spam bot or direct fire bot? The LRM bot would take less input and work to make. Therefore, the weapon is easier.

[Joseph Mallan]

excuse me you can do what again? You can fire your missiles & track another Mech to shoot with Lasers? You mean like i could in the TT Game? You can spread your weapons on more than one target? Vids or I call BS!

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

I just mentioned this in a PM. As a young Boot Marine my first billet in my fire team was the teams Grenadier. I was both direct and indirect fire as the grenade launcher could lob rounds over walls and low hill.

So there I am an Infantry Marine, in the thick of combat able to lob damage at the enemy indirectly as well as directly with a max range of 400M... But indirect fire is for sissies right? And the Mk-19 could fire 2,200M indirectly or 1,500m for a "point target". But again that weapon is for sissies right?

Support fire is awesome. Why fight up close or engage when you can neutralize the enemy from afar with little risk to yourself? It's just logical. I get that completely.

But...it's also not fun. Using your logic, why don't we just implement nukes and air drop them on the enemy team or shoot their dropships out of the sky before the game starts? We're talking GAMEplay here, not realistic military tactics.

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

excuse me you can do what again? You can fire your missiles & track another Mech to shoot with Lasers? You mean like i could in the TT Game? You can spread your weapons on more than one target? Vids or I call BS!

lol. All I am proving with this point is that that shooting LRM is easier than direct fire in general. I'm not addressing gameplay tactics, mech builds or talking about nerfs or even when and if it's a good idea to spread. Just supporting the previous point about ease of use between locked and direct fire weapons.

[Elkarlo]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

excuse me you can do what again? You can fire your missiles & track another Mech to shoot with Lasers? You mean like i could in the TT Game? You can spread your weapons on more than one target? Vids or I call BS!

Depends on the Definition i do this often when my Team is losing.
I am mostly attacked in Close Combat but still have Targets on long range, so i putt my both Med-Lasers into the close Range target and Assist my Teammate with Long range Support fire it's tricky and of course gives a +2 on the secondary Target. But it is possible.

[RedHairDave]

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

More specifically (per my previous example), LRMS are so easy to shootthat I can lock, hold down the LRM group button on Target A and forget about it, then move on to actually aiming at Target B at the same time. The key concept here is LRMs I can forget about as they fire while I must keep tracking and aiming with the remainder of my weapons. That is not possible in the other direction.

Think of in in this way..Which would be easier to code, an LRM spam bot or direct fire bot? The LRM bot would take less input and work to make. Therefore, the weapon is easier.

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

lol. All I am proving with this point is that that shooting LRM is easier than direct fire in general. I'm not addressing gameplay tactics, mech builds or talking about nerfs or even when and if it's a good idea to spread. Just supporting the previous point about ease of use between locked and direct fire weapons.

i wish i knew where this eaiser thing is coming from, its all silly easy, its no eiaser to shoot lrm's and hit, than it is to shoot direct and hit. realistically my hit % is likely higher with direct fire, as i am in control of it, and no ams to stop my gauss.

i completely disagree one is easier than the other, anyone with decent ping can hit anyone with anything.
with a bad ping, lrm is easier but again, thats not a skill issue. the player with 300 ping is likely hitting the jenner every shot on his screen, but the jenner is protected by lag.

i have no idea why you think one is easier than the other, im sure programming a aim bot is easier with lrm's(you said it was, so why not, i have no way to know, not a programmer) but whats that have to do with anything, bots arent aloud.

Edited by RedHairDave, 29 November 2012 - 11:02 AM.

[Jonnara]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 29 November 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

Regardless of however the weapons are balanced, the best players will use the best equipment and roll noobs. It's just making the game a big snooze fest because they have buffed LRMs to the point that nobody wants to come out from cover to actually fight. Less fun = Bad.

That is whole point of the game, its not a fast twitch shooter.

Your meant to be coordinating with your team and do a combat simulation, does none of you guys remember the concept of "No Mans Land"?

Get this out of your head guys.

Skill in this game is not who can point their cross hairs at target, that would be a twitch shooter which this is not.

Skill here is the brawler on my team hugging a line of cover, forcing other side to come into the open to engage him, calling my support fire to malt the ADHD twitch player who has no patience.

Edited by Jonnara, 29 November 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Elkarlo, on 29 November 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Depends on the Definition i do this often when my Team is losing.
I am mostly attacked in Close Combat but still have Targets on long range, so i putt my both Med-Lasers into the close Range target and Assist my Teammate with Long range Support fire it's tricky and of course gives a +2 on the secondary Target. But it is possible.

Ok now this... I need to try! I've been kinda bumming cause I couldn't fire on multiple targets but this sounds like what I've wanted to do! To Cool!

[TruePoindexter]

Jonnara, on 29 November 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

That is whole point of the game, its not a fast twitch shooter.

Your meant to be coordinating with your team and do a combat simulation, does none of you guys remember the concept of "No Mans Land"?

Get this out of your head guys.

Skill in this game is not who can point their cross hairs at target, that would be a twitch shooter which this is not.

Skill here is the brawler on my team hugging a line of cover, forcing other side to come into the open to engage him, calling my support fire to malt the ADHD twitch player who has no patience.

This and I freakin' love it.

[Wolfways]

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Support fire is awesome. Why fight up close or engage when you can neutralize the enemy from afar with little risk to yourself? It's just logical. I get that completely.

But...it's also not fun FOR ME. Using your logic, why don't we just implement nukes and air drop them on the enemy team or shoot their dropships out of the sky before the game starts? We're talking GAMEplay here, not realistic military tactics.

Fixed that for you.

[Joseph Mallan]

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

lol. All I am proving with this point is that that shooting LRM is easier than direct fire in general. I'm not addressing gameplay tactics, mech builds or talking about nerfs or even when and if it's a good idea to spread. Just supporting the previous point about ease of use between locked and direct fire weapons.

You mean easy to use like lasers are? i mean really how hard is it to put cross hairs over a target and pull the trigger sir? Now depending on your reflexes and how fast or slow a target is may increase how much twitch action you have to have but seriously, you actually think shooting lasers at a target you can see is harder than firing on a Mech over a hill that your friend is trying not to be killed by? It's not, it's just faster.

Platinum Booger, on 29 November 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Support fire is awesome. Why fight up close or engage when you can neutralize the enemy from afar with little risk to yourself? It's just logical. I get that completely.

But...it's also not fun. Using your logic, why don't we just implement nukes and air drop them on the enemy team or shoot their dropships out of the sky before the game starts? We're talking GAMEplay here, not realistic military tactics.

Word of Blake will be using this in a few decades. I hope to still be playing then to see if i can defeat them too.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 November 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[IamSeanConnery]

RedHairDave, on 29 November 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

i wish i knew where this eaiser thing is coming from, its all silly easy, its no eiaser to shoot lrm's and hit, than it is to shoot direct and hit. realistically my hit % is likely higher with direct fire, as i am in control of it, and no ams to stop my gauss.

i have no idea why you think one is easier than the other, im sure programming a aim bot is easier with lrm's(you said it was, so why not, i have no way to know, not a programmer) but whats that have to do with anything, bots arent aloud.

I do some programming. However, I would never bot nor have the experience to do so. Again, just supporting a point with an example.

That being said, I agree that hit% is lower on LRM. However, initial DPS is higher to buff this(Damage/missile).
Also, I am not arguing effectiveness of LRM over direct fire, overall. I think they are relatively close.

My argument is simply that they are easier to use to damage opponents. This does not correlate directly with hit% since I'm making the assumption for this that they are relatively close in effectiveness regardless how often either method actually hits. In other words,locked fired weapons are easier to do damage than direct fire in general. And most definitely initially. A new person can be more effective with LRMs than direct fire initially. People who have lag issues or 4FPS bug issues use LRMs effectively when this is not possible with direct fire. That alone speaks volumes.

I can't believe this is actually a debate. Please support arguments with examples at least. I would be happy to change my opinion if the argument can be supported.

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Ok now this... I need to try! I've been kinda bumming cause I couldn't fire on multiple targets but this sounds like what I've wanted to do! To Cool!

I thought you were joking with me when you initially responded to it. It is not something to do with very long distance missile locks however since without LOS and maybe no teammate support those locks may not be steady. ( to your previous point about unsteady missile locks which I agree in part). The time to use this is when your team is engaged. Missile locks are very steady in comparison taking out the primary targets out of LOS while you focus on secondary targets within LOS. Not always the best option necessarily but it has it's merit

And to clarify, I mean the missile lock target is locked and targeted, and the second target is a manual shot with direct fire.
The UAC5/2LrgLas with 2LRM20 or variant of such has been a good candidate to run like this in my experience.

[Joseph Mallan]

Any way it can work is better than being stuck firing on just one target! THAT shows some degree of skill, being able to fire on and hit more than one target at a time! I have a new skill to master now!