125 replies to this topic

[Comassion]

UPDATE: PGI will not be putting ECM on the Jenner. Thank you all for your votes and opinions! I really enjoyed this thread.

--- Original Post Below ---

I am a Jenner pilot. A good one. The kind that will swing matches and bring down many 'mechs even after they fix the netcode and put collisions back in.

Why? Because MWO has made the Jenner an amazing 'mech to play. It's fast. It's deadly. It's well-armed, and the armor really isn't too shabby. My preferred ride is the F, but the D is an excellent choice.

Honestly, I think it's a very well balanced 'mech (or will be once netcode gets better and collisions return - right now it's a bit much). It's truly deadly in the hands of an expert, and a novice can get themselves killed very easily.

If you're like me, then you recognize the Jenner is plenty good as-is. It's better - objectively - than every other light 'mech in the game.

You've seen that ECM is coming, and you may have some idea of how good it's going to be.

How good? It makes you immune to LRMs. And SSRMs. And keeps you off radar so that nobody will know where you are.

As a Jenner pilot, I'm taking a stand and saying that the Jenner does not need this. The Jenner will still be every bit as amazing of a 'mech without this feature, and it's high time that the other light chassis got something to distinguish themselves.

I want a reason to take a Raven over a Jenner. I want a reason to take a Commando over a Jenner. If you give this awesome technology to the Jenner as well, then that reason will simply not exist - and I question whether it ever will. We're at the end of the technology tree here. If a Jenner-D can mount the same electronic warfare suite as the Raven, then there's no point to the Raven - and I'm happy to say this as a Jenner pilot. The Jenner should not 'have it all', and this must be the line drawn in the sand of making other 'mechs worthy of consideration.

So vote. Make your voices heard. Let us urge PGI to give the Raven the ECM it richly deserves. Give it to the Commando because they need love too. Give it to some other variants like the Centurion if you like. But we Jenners are already richly blessed and well loved, and no Jenner variant needs more than we've already got.

I made the poll option for Jenner pilots specifically so that we can get opinions from people who already pilot this 'mech. I'm sure some will opt for it because they'd love to go over the top in terms of power, but it is my hope that most will see the merits of my argument and agree that ECM does not belong to us.

Edited by Comassion, 28 November 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Yes i dont wanna to give it to Jenner for 2 reasons but only 1 stay if netcode+collision will be back.
1)Why we have Ravens if we can put ECM on Jenner?
2)It will make Jenner even more OP than its now w/o netcode improved+collisions and knockback implemented.Now i am happy when i will hit them with SSRMs and lasers are totally unusable,same for balistics...

[Orkhepaj]

hmm why n+1 topic , jenners dont deserv this many topics

[Shad0wsFury]

I especially don't like the fact that it's the D variant which is slated to have ECM. Being that this is the Founder's variant, anyone who got it for "free" as a founder is going to slap it on and they'll be everywhere.

I also don't like that it makes you "immune" to LRMs and SSRMs, though I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. It certainly invalidates locks under 180m or whatever, so when you get close you're safe, which does give you some limited immunity (but you'd be immune to LRMs inside that range anyway). Regardless, this negates one of the best weapon systems for dealing with lights: SSRMs.

I also feel that the ECM is making AMS redundant on mechs that allow it. If you look at it like the AMS can negate SOME missile damage, but the ECM can negate nearly ALL missile damage, it really seems overpowered. If anything, ECM should make it take an additional 50-100% more time to achieve a target lock for SSRMs, that seems a lot more reasonable, but it shouldn't be doing the job of a super-powerful AMS and everything else it does. ECM-capable mechs should still need to use AMS if they want to mitigate some missile damage, not have it done by an all-in-one wonder module.

I hope they do a serious balance pass over ECM before it actually gets released. Maybe things will be "better" when netcode issues don't make fast moving mechs nearly invincible to begin with, since SSRMs are the only reliable way to deal with lights at the moment. Also the return of knockdown mechanics might help keep things balanced, but even with knockdown and resolved netcode, ECM still seems vastly overpowered from their initial announcement.

Edited by Shad0wsFury, 28 November 2012 - 07:17 AM.

[Comassion]

Shad0wsFury, on 28 November 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

I also don't like that it makes you "immune" to LRMs and SSRMs, though I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. It certainly invalidates locks under 180m or whatever, so when you get close you're safe, which does give you some limited immunity (but you'd be immune to LRMs inside that range anyway). Regardless, this negates one of the best weapon systems for dealing with lights: SSRMs.

The reason it makes you immune from LRMs is the 200-meter max targeting range. I can run out into the water and nobody can target me* unless a spotter gets within 200 meters (but stays outside of 180 meters). Good luck staying exactly 180-200 meters from a full-speed Jenner in the time it takes an LRM carrier to lock on and travel time for missiles - if you actually manage it, you'll get the worst of it because I'll be spending that time leading you back to friendlies, since you have to be following me. Your only other chance is TAG, but you'll actually have to hold it on me as opposed to hitting occasionally - also very difficult. Your best chance for shutting down my LRM immunity is a counter-ECM, but if I run with an ECM buddy you'll need two.

Quote

I hope they do a serious balance pass over ECM before it actually gets released. Maybe things will be "better" when netcode issues don't make fast moving mechs nearly invincible to begin with, since SSRMs are the only reliable way to deal with lights at the moment. Also the return of knockdown mechanics might help keep things balanced, but even with knockdown and resolved netcode, ECM still seems vastly overpowered from their initial announcement.

Even if ECM gets a balance pass and doesn't end up as it's current written incarnation, the Jenner still doesn't need it to be good. The Raven does.


*I still won't do this with ECM because of direct fire long range weapons. But I'd be safe from LRMs.

Edited by Comassion, 28 November 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[Kousagi]

ECM will not stop LRM's from locking on to a mech. The only time would be if the ECM is within 180m of the LRM bloat, which you can't even fire LRM's at a mech 180m from you anyhow, so thats a moot point and i sure hope you don't plan to shoot LRM's at other mechs with a light mech up your rear. Also ECM is not taking the place of AMS, as with LRM's they can still lock, and AMS does nothing to streaks so theres no overlap in its function.

Only thing that will hamper LRM's though is the reduced sensor range and the ECM's disruption of the C3 target sharing. Which Tag from outside the ECM's effect can negate the hidden unit(s). So, a crazy thing called teamwork. Also ECM can Countered other ECM, which I think a lot of people are forgetting. If you don't have you own light with a ECM fighting off their ECM equipped light, then, sucks to be on your team. Also that atlas variant Also can get the ECM, which is awesome for your brawler section, put on disrupt during movement and fighting, flip to counter if their ECM comes in range.

[Kraven Kor]

There are few enough reasons already to take any other light over a Jenner, so... no

Commando is "canon" as having ECM. Jenner is not.

Jenner is less of a scout and more of a light combat mech. Or that is my understanding.

[Icebound]

Nobody will care about this once they put knockdowns back in.

[Tuonela]

Put it on the K, not the D, it would solve a lot of issues and make that variant useful.

[Squid von Torgar]

The Jenner was designed as a anti scout mech and guerrilla warfare.

In that role it does well, it packs a lot of firepower for such a small mech and also has the maneuverability to use it.

It certainly doesnt need ECM as well. It goes against the design concept of the mech and also it is effective enough without further buffs.

The Raven at the moment is a fish out of water and doesnt really do anything well. It was designed for EW, and next patch it should come into its own. Its nice to see the Commando get some loving too. Even the Cicada 3M will be worthwhile.

I expect the Atlas to shed its ECM once it gets its command console.

[Comassion]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

ECM will not stop LRM's from locking on to a mech. The only time would be if the ECM is within 180m of the LRM bloat, which you can't even fire LRM's at a mech 180m from you anyhow, so thats a moot point and i sure hope you don't plan to shoot LRM's at other mechs with a light mech up your rear. Also ECM is not taking the place of AMS, as with LRM's they can still lock, and AMS does nothing to streaks so theres no overlap in its function.

This is the part that stops LRMs from locking on to a 'mech:

Quote

Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.

If you're outside of 200 meters, you cannot target an ECM 'mech. That means LRMs will never be fired at it since it isn't targeted, and locks will break as soon as the 'mech is no longer targeted. So yes, ECM will indeed stop LRMs from locking on to a 'mech, very effectively.

If you're inside 180 meters, you cannot share your targeting data with your LRM carriers - no lock there.

To use LRMs, you have to stay 180-200 meters away from the target, use TAG, or use ECM yourself in counter mode. Each of these has problems.

1. You'll never be able to hold yourself at 180-200 meters from a full speed Jenner for any length of time.
2. TAG will be really difficult to hold on a Jenner if he's moving (right now with TAG you can still maintain lock even if you aren't hitting them with TAG, which lets you reacquire them.) If the Jenner is actively attacking you, he's not going to stay targeted the second he gets out of your arc.
3. ECM countering require that you have your own ECM 'mech, and this may be the most viable solution, but you still have to get within 180 meters yourself to pull it off, and if the enemy chooses to break off then following him to hold that counter may be much more detrimental to you than to him.

Incidentally, all these things will be true for any ECM mech, but at least those 'mechs could be the less dangerous Ravens and Commandos rather than the already-fantastic Jenner.

Edited by Comassion, 28 November 2012 - 07:57 AM.

[Kousagi]

Squid von Torgar, on 28 November 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

The Jenner was designed as a anti scout mech and guerrilla warfare.

In that role it does well, it packs a lot of firepower for such a small mech and also has the maneuverability to use it.

It certainly doesnt need ECM as well. It goes against the design concept of the mech and also it is effective enough without further buffs.

So what is the main thing that anti-scouts and guerrilla's need to do to be effective? Hide, not be seen, to be able to sneak, and strike before they are noticed. What does ECM do? Hides mechs... Seems to fit the design concept to me.

the raven 3L and Jenner D pretty much have the same hardpoints, raven has better missile setups, where the jenner has a bad missile setup, but gains 1 energy. Though the only argument i could see is to move the ECM to the Jenner K, so that its a trade off for the raven to jenner, 1 energy for 1 missile.

[Lane]

ECM is a scout tool, yes light mechs should get ECM and maybe a fast medium.

[Orkhepaj]

Lane, on 28 November 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

ECM is a scout tool, yes light mechs should get ECM and maybe a fast medium.

jenner is not a scout

[Destoroyah]

the ravens need ECM to be viable over jenners. The thing to bare in mind is these are both 35 ton mechs yet the jenner has sizable advantages over the ravens with the ravens having nothing on their side to balance the equation. Pilot Skill is not a factor as it is variable and can't be measured but stats are and the ravens don't stack up.

All ravens only have 5 weapon hardpoints compared too two of the jenners having 6.

All the jenners have jump capability, ravens only get one variant.

All Ravens are slower then Jenners. The Raven 3L is a bit of a anomaly as it can get up to a 295 engine where as the other two ravens can only reach 245, only because the engine code is based on the current engine of the variant and not based on the chassis as a whole.

I don't got the raven 4x so I don't know how many module slots it gets. The jenner K gets 3 to make up for it's lack of a hardpoint. Well all the ravens only have 5 hardpoints so why do they only have 2 and that's not counting the fact of there lacking in the speed department and lack of jump jets on some.

Originally the Electronic Equipment was supposed to be the ravens balancing factor to the jenners but they decided to give BaP to all mechs for some bogus reason, and gave ECM only to the 3L and it's the strongest raven in the bunch. The 2X and 4x really need the ECM as well to make them somewhat viable options as well.

I think for one they need to normalize engine restrictions based on the chassis for all mechs. Then I think they need to make Electronic Equipment use special hardpoints, but still restrict ECM to certain mechs. So they can give the raven 2X/4X 1 EW Hardpoint and a choose between BaP or ECM and give the Raven 3L 2 EW hardpoints for both. Then give the Raven 2X a bonus module slot since the 4X gots Jumpjets and I think ravens would be pretty well balanced to jenners.

[Lane]

Orkhepaj, on 28 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

jenner is not a scout

Like it or not, the jenner is a scout.

[Lee Ving]

Orkhepaj, on 28 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

jenner is not a scout

Wrong.

Chassis type from Sarna.net: "Diplan Scout-A"

[Kousagi]

Orkhepaj, on 28 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

jenner is not a scout

The jenner is a scout... as much as people fight this fact, it is. Theres even a "hero mech" for it thats a... wait for it... spotter! Its chassis is even classed as a scout... Yes, its said its designed to be able to operate behind enemy lines, and its well suited for guerrilla warfare, but does that make it any less of a scout?

[Orkhepaj]

you guys are wrong in this game mwo jenner is not a scout but a speedy close combat mech

[Voridan Atreides]

If any mech deserves ECM it is the Commando. That thing dies way to quickly from my SSRMs.

Nadia Winson, on 28 November 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Wrong.

Chassis type from Sarna.net: "Diplan Scout-A"

Not everything in this game is 100% correct from the real battletech lore...

Edited by Voridan Atreides, 28 November 2012 - 08:12 AM.