349 replies to this topic

[Deadoon]

I can see this petition has utterly failed.

[Particle Man]

if only they would announce a new game mode thats coming soon or something.

[Krivvan]

Doing a rush for the cap puts your team at a gigantic tactical risk. If the other team catches your rushing group of 4 then you'll lose those 4 right off the bat and consequently are almost assured that you will lose the game.

Having a team of 4 rush the cap only works so often when you're playing against inferior teams. As such, it's just an extension of pug-stomping. If the other team has a group of 4 with their **** together, you'll almost certainly lose.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 09:45 PM.

[Teralitha]

Deadoon, on 28 November 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

I can see this petition has utterly failed.

Fixed. Its just a discussion now. The poll question was really no where near what the ensuing discussion was about.

Metal Shakes, on 28 November 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

The point of this game is to engage the enemy in close combat and destroy them utterly and decisively. This capture the flag bs needs to go. This isn't Stratego.

Yes, this video illustrates exactly what this game really feels like.

[Krivvan]

Teralitha, on 28 November 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Yes, this video illustrates exactly what this game really feels like.

I respectfully disagree. Rushing a cap is never an optimal strategy in a game, and as such only a very tiny minority of my games have me actually seeing a cap rush. In those games where I do see the enemy team cap rush then I simply tell the other PUGs to stick around at the base and the enemy team ends up losing horribly.

I think the base aspect is absolutely required for the balance (or semblance of balance in the eyes of some) of this game to work. Without the base you'll have even more problems where people split off into random directions and just go glory hounding for kills.

If you want a case study then look no further than most FPS games on the market. Even team deathmatch gametypes devolve into just running randomly in all directions around the map even when there's voice comms enabled for PUGs.


You probably have a lot of success with rushing caps because you have a competent team of 4 carrying it out and you're more likely to win against another group of 4. But your entire strategy is based around an enemy team's mistake. Such strategies are always risky. If an enemy team notices your cap rush and the majority of their team will listen to someone tell them to stay at the base (which is surprisingly very often as long as you are polite about it), then your cap rush will have utterly failed. The worst case scenario is that all 4 of you die for no real benefit to your team while the better case scenario is that you all turn tail and run but take a large amount of damage along the way.


Also, 1 or 2 light mechs going behind the enemy team and touching their capture point is not a cap rush. It is a ploy to bring back elements of the enemy team. What makes it not a cap rush is the fact that the light mechs will be able to get away in time without taking significant damage. You rarely lose to situations like this however because it's usually more likely that the team will come back to the base with a disproportionate response than to not send enough stuff.


tl;dr The game is all about cap rushing to you because you play in a team of 4 individually skilled players and are relying solely on the fact that you're more likely to come across less skilled players when you do a cap rush. If you try not cap rushing every game you'll find that cap rushing is a very rare occurrence.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[Fate 6]

The issue I have is that on these small maps with bases, there is little room to maneuver. It is your team one one side and theirs on the other. Flanking pretty much doesn't exist except in a few limited cases. It also greatly limits scouting as well (it's pretty much only useful to have spotters on the river city and snow map, but they are spotters not scouts, since you basically know where the enemy is).

Edited by Fate 6, 28 November 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[Teralitha]

Krivvan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Without the base you'll have even more problems where people split off into random directions and just go glory hounding for kills.

If you want a case study then look no further than most FPS games on the market. Even team deathmatch gametypes devolve into just running randomly in all directions around the map even when there's voice comms enabled for PUGs.

Are you really sure that the players running off in all random directions is actually going to win vs the team that stays together and focuses fire on the lonewolfs? You must be thinking this a respawn FPS game where you die to sniper rifles..... because it isnt. What you described is what an FPS respawn game in like BF3 or Counterstrikwe, or halo pvp is like.

Here Your in a heavily armored battlemech. You only get 1 life, and the track record for lonewolfing vs coordinated teams doesnt look to impressive....

Try again.

Edited by Teralitha, 28 November 2012 - 10:22 PM.

[Krivvan]

Another problem is that too many people don't understand the game type at all.


Let's take a very common scenario:

You're an Atlas and you meet a Jenner in the middle of the map. The Jenner turns tail and runs to cap your base. What is your best option?

Too often I've seen the Atlas go for the enemy base just like the Jenner is doing. They then proceed to blame the gametype that they lost. The thing is, a couple seconds of thinking logically should tell you that the Atlas has zero chance of winning by going for a cap because the Jenner will reach the base first. The correct move is for the Atlas to return to his/her own base since he/she will likely make it before the Jenner finishes capping.


Another scenario is when an entire team goes for the middle of the map then just stands there defending when 4 enemy mechs go through the tunnel to do a cap rush. Aside from the fact that the scout would've failed if he/she had not seen this coming, the correct move is for your entire team to come back to the base. Too often, however, only 1 or 2 people will go back every minute or so leading to a stream of easy kills for the group of 4.

Teralitha, on 28 November 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Are you really sure that the players running off in all random directions is actually going to win vs the team that stays together and focuses fire on the lonewolfs? You must be thinking this a respawn FPS game where you die to sniper rifles..... because it isnt. What you described is what an FPS respawn game in like BF3 or Counterstrikwe, or halo pvp is like.

Here Your in a heavily armored battlemech. You only get 1 life, and the track record for lonewolfing vs coordinated teams doesnt look to impressive....

Try again.

Did I say it was a good idea that people split apart and run off randomly? Of course the team that sticks together will do well, but the fact of the matter is that most PUGs don't want to work as a team whatsoever. Call it "teamwork OP" but it makes for an extremely boring game. And even in game modes in FPSes with only a limited number of lives people still just run off in different directions.

Lets say you have a perfectly coordinated team of 8 versus a perfectly coordinated team of 8 in a team deathmatch mode without a base. The entire gametype now just boils down to both blobs of 8 engaging each other and fighting until one side dies. How is this not utterly boring? The addition of a base means that both teams must actually take into account the positioning and layout of the map.


Now of course I'm in favour of more game types. But I just think that the current Assault game type is far superior than a simple Team Deathmatch.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[LoveCake]

More game modes is MUST! Firstly, author have a point.....well organized team always win, Secondly, its just boring!

[Secundus]

Assault is a terrible game mode the way it's been implemented. There's nothing fun about a base cap and it encourages really lame tactics that can ruin an otherwise good fire fight. A dozen mechs are fighting each other, but sorry guys, game is over because a Jenner stood in a square. Lame and thoughtless game mode in my opinion.

[Krivvan]

Secundus, on 28 November 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

Assault is a terrible game mode the way it's been implemented. There's nothing fun about a base cap and it encourages really lame tactics that can ruin an otherwise good fire fight. A dozen mechs are fighting each other, but sorry guys, game is over because a Jenner stood in a square. Lame and thoughtless game mode in my opinion.

The Jenner can't stand in a square to cap if the Atlas simply walks back to his own base. An Atlas deciding to instead go and cap the enemy base isn't so much the gametype's fault as it is the Atlas player simply not thinking about the nuances of the game type.

[ICEFANG13]

I love when they rush the base, such an easy win, every single time. I can't believe the OP has a problem with defending something. If that's your problem, getting rid of the base won't help you.

[Pr8Dator]

There will be FFA gamemodes coming up in the future, be patient. My favorite Solaris 7 is now being developed!

[Teralitha]

Krivvan, on 28 November 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Doing a rush for the cap puts your team at a gigantic tactical risk. If the other team catches your rushing group of 4 then you'll lose those 4 right off the bat and consequently are almost assured that you will lose the game.

Having a team of 4 rush the cap only works so often when you're playing against inferior teams. As such, it's just an extension of pug-stomping. If the other team has a group of 4 with their **** together, you'll almost certainly lose.

Thats why you do it with 8 and not 4.

[Krivvan]

Teralitha, on 28 November 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Thats why you do it with 8 and not 4.

Then you're not talking about this game anymore.

Even so, rushing with 8 guaranteeing a win just means that you did a Pugstomp where anything you would've done would've guaranteed you a win. Rushing with 8 against another group of 8 just puts your team at a disadvantageous position as they come out of a choke point with the entire enemy team waiting for you.

The problem is that it's your team with better teamwork against their team with a lack of any. The game type could be CTF or it could be Team Deathmatch but you'd have the exact same result every time: a complete and utterly boring stomp.


I thought you were complaining about a small group of 3-4 going for a cheap cap rush, but if you're talking about an entire team of 8 then that's not a cap rush anymore, that's just an offensive push from a different direction.


If premade versus premade matchmaking is completed by the coming Tuesday then you can go ahead and see how well cap rushing works in that.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[Krivvan]

If none of that proves my point, then how about this. If you want to remove base capping and turn it into pure team deathmatch, then I will go hide in places inaccessible to other mechs every time I'm the last person left on my team and grief you for the 14 minutes it takes your team to find me.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[QuantumButler]

I would love if capture the red square was gone.

[Secundus]

Krivvan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

The Jenner can't stand in a square to cap if the Atlas simply walks back to his own base. An Atlas deciding to instead go and cap the enemy base isn't so much the gametype's fault as it is the Atlas player simply not thinking about the nuances of the game type.

Don't assume I don't understand the game mode. It's a simple concept, but I think it's a weakly implemented game mode where the base capping takes the fun out of the game. I'm playing the game to kill other mechs with mine, I've played many rounds where there's 14 or 15 players that want to play the same game as I do, but our fun is ended because someone is standing in a square somewhere on the map. Yes we could maybe all turn tail or hope we have a competent scout to go back and try to get them out of the square or rush to their square, but usually the game ends and regardless of if I'm on the winning team or not my fun is cut short. For how rare good close fights are in this game, the majority of them are ended prematurely by this stupid thoughtless game mode. Yes the Atlas can go chase the Jenner back to his base in your scenario and then play cat and mouse with it for 5 or 6 minutes until one of us dies or the timer runs out. This doesn't interest me and feels like a waste of my time. If you guys love the mode so much, power to you, but even a king of the hill capture in the centre of the map would be far more entertaining than what we have here as it would keep the game more about the battle and less about the standing in the square on the opposite side of the map. Can someone explain to me what standing in the square is even representing and why it seemingly eliminates every mech on the battlefield and every mech just stops fighting?

[ICEFANG13]

Because we aren't here to kill all the mechs, we are here to stand within 90m of a base to download information from it to end the war. We just do it after you're dead if you'd rather do it that way.

[Krivvan]

Secundus, on 28 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Don't assume I don't understand the game mode. It's a simple concept, but I think it's a weakly implemented game mode where the base capping takes the fun out of the game. I'm playing the game to kill other mechs with mine,

I don't play to kill other mechs with mine. That alone is boring. I play to kill, distract and disable other mechs with mine in the aim of giving my team the most advantages possible and to ultimately beat the enemy team by either force of arms or out maneuvering them.

Tying up 8 mechs with a group of 5 mechs while 3 mechs go for a cap is far more fun and interesting than just 8 mechs brawling against 8 other mechs.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:54 PM.