322 replies to this topic

[Shadowsword8]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

So, I say this as objectively as possible, but I think if you look at the previous games, then back here, you'll notice a shockingly good balance of chassis/weapons/etc.

Why are we even speaking about previous MW games? They do not impact the gameplay in MWO, thus they are irrelevant.

What I see that that, as an example of frontal duel, a quad-AC Cataphract will have a decisive advantage over a large-laser or PPC centric Atlas in practical dps, and that the atlas will shut down from overheating long before the Cataphract does, And don't get me started on the abusive shaking and smoke.

[Sulf]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Those games also had (not all, but some) PPC's that did 30 damage, lights no-one used, and 'coolant flushing.' Also, in every previous game DHS > SHS in every situation, and we want to avoid that.

I don't think I've ever weighed in on this but I honestly, really get it. DHS are already very good and have become a necessity of 75% of my mechs. Should it be 1,500,000? maybe not. Is it already better than FF or endo steel? Yes.

There are 2 primary issues that keep popping up: Trial mechs and high heat weapons.

Trial mechs are simply not built for the high-heat generation and low-heat threshold that MW:O is pushing forward. Personally I find that the way things are going is much more fun than it would have been otherwise, but because of how it is, most players are sacrificing other systems and upgrading in order to get more continuous fire out of a chassis and there by increasing the gap between trial mech and custom.

two minds of thought: 1. giving players a way to "level up" their mech is good for grind. 2. All builds should be more or less viable to start with and only work out different.

Use as you feel is necessary, but the one thing I feel is most important, is that new players are given a trial mech that they can actually compete in.

Now, high heat weapons, like PPCs simply don't work out. very few people use them and the simplest reason why, is that ammo weapons are the same or better, and often create less heat at the readily paid cost of limited ammo (which is piled high and cased).

You've always nerfed and buffed weapons in interesting ways, so I won't try to give you ideas, but I think most agree that the larger energy weapons just aren't viable currently.

Edited by Brickyard, 30 November 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Those games also had (not all, but some) PPC's that did 30 damage, lights no-one used, and 'coolant flushing.' Also, in every previous game DHS > SHS in every situation, and we want to avoid that.

Garth...
...
...
Did you really say this? Honestly?

If something is twice as effective as another is it not in fact better? For almost 30 years double sinks have been better than single sinks. Having $10 is better than having $5. having 2 steaks is better than having one. Having two cars better than having one. Double sinks are supposed to be twice as good as their single cousin. It's even in the description. "Twice as effective"

Seriously Garth... That was stupid!

[Jonas]

I think putting them back to 2.0 would be for the best, If it gives the light chassis a slit advantage I can live with it. Because it gives heavies and assaults a chance to fire more of there weapons in a give length of time thus allowing them to do more damage which balances everything out.

[Sephlock]

They tested it and found out it made the game too fun. Heat is designed to be a limiting factor in this game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sephlock, on 30 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

They tested it and found out it made the game too fun. Heat is designed to be a limiting factor in this game.

The Sarcasm is strong in this one.

[TruePoindexter]

Lefty Lucy, on 30 November 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Please, tell us your broken 2.0 build, and use math to explain why it would be broken. Most builds would gain at best 10% more heat efficiency out of 2.0 out-of-engine heat sinks. That's not going to break anything.

SteelPaladin, on 30 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

No, you really won't. Thanks to the 10 full DHS in the engine, the increase wouldn't even be all that dramatic. Do you know how much extra cooling my 16 DHS CTF-1X would get w/full true DHS? 3.4 heat per 10 seconds. That's a little under a 13% increase. It's not even enough to offset the HPS increase going from a PPC to an ER PPC (it gets you about 1/3 of the way there).

Challenge Accepted.

Behold the 6 ML Jenner that is now almost perfectly heat neutral. Every Atlas/Cataphract 4X pilot in the world wants to run into these.

Spoiler

Chassis Name: Jenner
Model Name: JR7-F
Variant Name: Jenner God

Engine Cost: 1,200,000 C-Bills
Heat Sink Cost: 8,000 C-Bills
Armor Cost: 70,112 C-Bills
Weapons Cost: 480,000 C-Bills
Equipment Cost: 0 C-Bills
Ammo Cost: 0 C-Bills

Engine: 300 XL Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel
Armor Type: Std Armor
Heat Sinks: 14 (12) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 35.00
Speed: 138.9 kph
Armor Total: 224
Alpha Strike Damage: 30.00
Alpha Strike Heat: 24.00
Firepower: 7.50 dps
Heat Efficiency: 48.67% (32.67% @ 1.4 DHS)
Effective Range of Loadout: 270m

Head: 14/18
Right Torso: 22/32
Right Rear Torso: 10/32
Center Torso: 30/44
Center Rear Torso: 12/44
Left Torso: 22/32
Left Rear Torso: 10/32
Right Arm: 22/24
Left Arm: 22/24
Right Leg: 30/32
Left Leg: 30/32

Weapons Locations
Right Arm:
(3) Medium Laser
Left Arm:
(3) Medium Laser

Heat Sink Locations
Right Torso: 1

Left Torso: 1


Jump Jet Locations
Center Torso: 1

How about we go hog wild? Remember the medium pulse laser 9M Awesome? Yeah now it's almost heat neutral. We all want constant 51 point damage Alphas to the face from an assault that can run 85kph don't we!

Spoiler

Chassis Name: Awesome
Model Name: AWS-9M
Variant Name: Awesome God

Engine Cost: 1,540,000 C-Bills
Heat Sink Cost: 24,000 C-Bills
Armor Cost: 150,240 C-Bills
Weapons Cost: 880,000 C-Bills
Equipment Cost: 0 C-Bills
Ammo Cost: 27,000 C-Bills

Engine: 385 XL Engine
Internal Type: Std Internals
Armor Type: Std Armor
Heat Sinks: 22 (15) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 80.00
Speed: 78.0 kph
Armor Total: 480
Alpha Strike Damage: 51.00
Alpha Strike Heat: 34.00
Firepower: 13.35 dps
Heat Efficiency: 48.89% (34.22% @ 1.4 DHS)
Effective Range of Loadout: 180m

Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 52/68
Right Rear Torso: 16/68
Center Torso: 74/100
Center Rear Torso: 26/100
Left Torso: 52/68
Left Rear Torso: 16/68
Right Arm: 52/52
Left Arm: 52/52
Right Leg: 61/68
Left Leg: 61/68

Weapons Locations
Right Arm:
Medium Pulse Laser
Left Arm:
SRM6
Right Torso:
Medium Pulse Laser
Left Torso:
Medium Pulse Laser
Center Torso:
(2) Medium Pulse Laser
Head:
Medium Pulse Laser

Heat Sink Locations
Right Arm: 2

Left Arm: 1

Right Torso: 2

Left Torso: 2


Equipment Locations

Ammo Locations
Left Arm:
SRM Ammo

Modifying DHS because a couple of the high end energy weapons are hard(er) to use is not the solution.

[Joseph Mallan]

Your Awesome not firing the SRM should be heat neutral. The Jenner isn't quite heat neutral as the Jump jets are supposed to generate heat also. but these builds would be good on the table top. I'll even say they would be dangerous. So whats the problem with being this efficient?

[TruePoindexter]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 November 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Bottom line: fire the spirit of the setting, not the letter of its rulebooks. They're supposed to work in lore. If they don't work in your game, then change the game.

And they did and in fact are working. Soooo you're agreeing then I take it?

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

We're getting much closer. I will say there isn't a single previous MW game that had as many weapons viable as MWO does. People often forget, in their fond memories, that many games had extremely small lists of usable weapons. I liked MW4 a lot, as it had a pretty good balance on weapons. That said though, Lights were almost universally worse than Assault/Heavys, I barely touched half the weapons due to them being categorically worse than the rest, and the game wasn't in beta and barely a year into development.

So, I say this as objectively as possible, but I think if you look at the previous games, then back here, you'll notice a shockingly good balance of chassis/weapons/etc.

Very much this! Thank you for your effort to make everything viable in this game!

SteelPaladin, on 30 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

PPCs are still lasers' b****. I'd take a Large Laser before a PPC and an ER Large Laser before an ER PPC any day of the week. Only 1 less damage and a bit less range in a game mostly brawler specced for a massively more manageable heat profile and 2 less tons? Don't have to worry about weird projectile behavior on top of it? Yes, please.

PPC's deal a burst hit of damage where lasers must be kept on their target for a duration of time to receive the full hit. A PPC hit at optimal range always deals its full damage to a single location. Large Lasers (especially at range) will always spread their damage around to other areas/have missed shots because of this fact. Assuming you're shooting at something more than a statue of course.

[Kobold]

Reminder: BV solves upgraded mech issues.

Trying to make every option equal is not only futile, but contrary to the spirit of the lore.

Edited by Kobold, 30 November 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 November 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Your Awesome not firing the SRM should be heat neutral. The Jenner isn't quite heat neutral as the Jump jets are supposed to generate heat also. but these builds would be good on the table top. I'll even say they would be dangerous. So whats the problem with being this efficient?

The reason this is an issue is because you don't worry about heat then. You literally ignore an entire game mechanic, and since you get to ignore heat there is no reason at all to look at ballistics. The game devolves into energy weapons being yet again the favored tool of choice.

[SpiralRazor]

And now in the news, DHS, a tech level 2 item, are better then SHS, a tech level 1 item...


"Those games also had (not all, but some) PPC's that did 30 damage, lights no-one used, and 'coolant flushing.' Also, in every previous game DHS > SHS in every situation, and we want to avoid that."


Coolant flushing was dumb and arcade-y......and no one used lights because scouting wasnt as viable as it could have been...the game just wasnt developed along those lines. 30 damage PPCs were just as dumb, same as being balls of energy dumb.

Mechwarrior 3 had a much better weapons balance then MW4, even if the unlimited chassis customization kinda ruined it. For STOCK play though, MW3 PM was better then MW4, IMO.


Make all types of PPCS hit-scan weapons and now you have something thats worth generating that kind of heat for.

[Kobold]

TruePoindexter, on 30 November 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

The reason this is an issue is because you don't worry about heat then.

That describes most of the best mechs in tabletop as well. If you are worrying too much about heat it meant that you had lots of backup weapons that you're never using, but still paying BV for.

[Joseph Mallan]

I haven't been worrying about heat for my entire BattleTech history. Since 1987-88 (ish) I have been reconfiguring my Mechs to be Alpha boats. And Energy weapons were not the only weapon I used! I had Alpha Capable Archers, Victors and Hunchbacks as well as Black Knights and Marauders!

[TruePoindexter]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

I haven't been worrying about heat for my entire BattleTech history. Since 1987-88 (ish) I have been reconfiguring my Mechs to be Alpha boats. And Energy weapons were not the only weapon I used! I had Alpha Capable Archers, Victors and Hunchbacks as well as Black Knights and Marauders!

Setup the very best heat neutral AC boat you can. Now setup a heat neutral energy boat. Comparing the two the difference is clear. If heat is always neutral energy is always superior due to it either dealing more damage or simply not having ammunition.

EDIT: Add in the mechanics of shooting inside of MWO and the instantaneous beams of light energy are vastly superior to slow flying ballistics.

Heat and other traits like kinetic impact and fire rate must be the balancing factors that encourage use of weapons that aren't lasers.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 30 November 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Monky]

Personally, I think all DHS should do 1.5 HPS

This way boats who plan on using only the 10 in engine have to still worry about heat a little. DHS aren't supposed to make heat trivial, they're supposed to provide different build options.

I also say this as a person who has used DHS on every custom mech I've played since open beta (3 hunchies and a phract). Almost none of my builds ever overheated with heavy firing, and when they did it was very brief.

Reducing their effectiveness is at this point the only option to making single heatsinks a true option.

Edited by Monky, 30 November 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Monky, on 30 November 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Personally, I think all DHS should do 1.5 HPS

This way boats who plan on using only the 10 in engine have to still worry about heat a little. DHS aren't supposed to make heat trivial, they're supposed to provide different build options.

I also say this as a person who has used DHS on every custom mech I've played since open beta (3 hunchies and a phract). Almost none of my builds ever overheated with heavy firing, and when they did it was very brief.

Reducing their effectiveness is at this point the only option to making single heatsinks a true option.

SHS are viable at a certain point on Assaults. Really any mech that has more weight than space could consider SHS over DHs.

EDIT: As an example build here's a 4 LL Atlas that most definitely benefits from SHS

Spoiler

Chassis Name: Atlas
Model Name: AS7-RS
Variant Name: SHS 4x LL

Engine Cost: 1,440,000 C-Bills
Heat Sink Cost: 56,000 C-Bills
Armor Cost: 190,304 C-Bills
Weapons Cost: 800,000 C-Bills
Equipment Cost: 0 C-Bills
Ammo Cost: 0 C-Bills

Engine: 360 XL Engine
Internal Type: Std Internals
Armor Type: Std Armor
Heat Sinks: 38 (14) Standard Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 100.00
Speed: 58.3 kph
Armor Total: 592
Alpha Strike Damage: 36.00
Alpha Strike Heat: 28.00
Firepower: 8.47 dps
Heat Efficiency: 57.68%
Effective Range of Loadout: 450m

Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 64/84
Right Rear Torso: 20/84
Center Torso: 94/124
Center Rear Torso: 28/124
Left Torso: 64/84
Left Rear Torso: 20/84
Right Arm: 68/68
Left Arm: 68/68
Right Leg: 74/84
Left Leg: 74/84

Weapons Locations
Right Arm:
(2) Large Laser
Left Arm:
(2) Large Laser

Heat Sink Locations
Right Torso: 9

Left Torso: 9

Center Torso: 2

Right Leg: 2

Left Leg: 2

Edited by TruePoindexter, 30 November 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[Jace11]

In response to thread:

No it isn't. They are fine.

[Joseph Mallan]

TruePoindexter, on 30 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Setup the very best heat neutral AC boat you can. Now setup a heat neutral energy boat. Comparing the two the difference is clear. If heat is always neutral energy is always superior due to it either dealing more damage or simply not having ammunition.

EDIT: Add in the mechanics of shooting inside of MWO and the instantaneous beams of light energy are vastly superior to slow flying ballistics.

Heat and other traits like kinetic impact and fire rate must be the balancing factors that encourage use of weapons that aren't lasers.

Gausszilla! No? The the Thunderhawk. 45 hard hitting ballistic points, give it double sinks and it is one deadly heat neutral monster. Able to kill most, if not all heat neutral energy boats.

[Deadoon]

Jace11, on 30 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

In response to thread:

No it isn't. They are fine.

They are broken, arguing otherwise is foolhardy, there should be no reason not to mount dhs until clan stuff arrives and people need less space consuming stuff, due to all that weight savings, which is why the compact heat sink was invented.