24 replies to this topic

[Pale Jackal]

SSRM 2s have a signfiicant advantage: you get a lock, and they'll hit.

However, the way current SRM spread works, they also have a much greater effective range.

Take an SRM6 without Artemis, and try firing at 250 meters. Even if you aimed your shot perfectly, several SRMs are going to miss. Even if you do this with Artemis, several SRMs will miss.

So, at 270 meters, your 3 ton SRM6 is more like an SRM2... so why not use an SSRM2 and save yourself a couple extra tons? Not to mention you don't even have to predict your enemy's movement anymore.

However, this is not true with SSRM2s. 270 meters, and they will all hit.

SRM6s are wonderful. I love them, but my point is that SSRM2s have an advantage in MWO beyond a 100% chance to hit. They also have an advantage in terms of range.

(Also, in closed beta SRMs were not always this inaccurate, they used to be extremely accurate and fly in a tight cluster. However, this was modified because SRMs were too effective. This may have inadvertently made SSRM2s more effective than intended, because they have a similar damage per missile compared to SRMs, but - given their guaranteed accuracy - a greater maximum effective range.)

I like the current "shotgun" effect of SRMs - they are very potent, but very short range, but it might be wise to reduce their damage and increase their accuracy. This would nerf SSRM2s, and keep damage values consistent. This would reduce the shotgun effect of SRMs, but it would increase their viability at range.

Of course, there are other solutions, such as increasing the difficulty of maintaining a lock with SSRM2s, or requiring the lock to be re-acquired after every volley.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 29 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[stjobe]

If two of your SRMs hit at 270 meters, there's no difference.

[MrPenguin]

Streak Short Range Missle 2 -> 5 Damage Costs a small fortune to re-arm only 2 of them, couldn't imagine re-arming 6.
Short Range Missle 6 -> 15 Damage

Also, according to the Wiki and from what i could remember in-game. They both has a range of 270. And I've got full shots on double SRM6 near that range with out artemis. But marksmanship is my forte in this game.

And honestly, its the difference between 30~ damage and 10 with around the same DPS. <-- said that wrong, I meant there fire rate where near similar. Oops.
I have 2 streaks and 2 srm6 in my awesome so i know full well the difference between the 2 and I could tell you right now that I will always take the SRM6 for DPS over SSRM2 any day of the weak. I mostly just have them as an anti-light deterant.

Edited by MrPenguin, 29 November 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[3rdworld]

stjobe, on 29 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

If two of your SRMs hit at 270 meters, there's no difference.

Other ammo, damage location, heat. But ya no difference.

[Kristov Kerensky]

The point of Streaks is that ALL of the missiles will hit the target..once you achieve lock...and the weapon won't fire unless you have a lock....

This makes them useless for the quick twist and fire at that little Jenner that's suddenly came up behind you while you were locked on that Atlas, unlike an SRM which doesn't require a lock and can be quick fired. There is a reason you see Atlases with an AC20 and 3 SRM6s instead of an AC20 and 3 Streak SRM2s...

[Bilbo]

If I want to hit a point at that range, I use something that hits a point(AC/20, lasers). My 3 SRM6s are for tearing pieces and parts off of mechs at considerably shorter distances.

[Hayashi]

The title is misleading. They may have 3 times the 'effective' range of srms according to your argument, but it's not 3 times the absolute range.

ER Large Lasers have an effective range of 675m for instance (IIRC), but that doesn't mean that's their maximum range. Their actual maximum, I believe, is 1350m.

The scattershot effect of SRM6 is useful for some players. It is hard to nearly impossible to maintain/acquire a missile Streak lock on Jenner pilots with sufficient skill, making Streaks nearly useless unless they make mistakes. But SRMs at 270m spread out enough such that the pilot cannot escape being hit by at least some of them, and over the long run this can be a very effective way of bringing them down.

Quite a few Commando pilots out there I know of use Streak SRM2 and SRM6 in combination for this reason. If SRM grouping were to be tightened, they wouldn't hit at all.

Edited by Hayashi, 29 November 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

What you are describing is not a range issue but missile hit percentage. Streaks are always 100% where SRM's are less. This is by design and kinda the point of Streaks.

Bilbo, on 29 November 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

If I want to hit a point at that range, I use something that hits a point(AC/20, lasers). My 3 SRM6s are for tearing pieces and parts off of mechs at considerably shorter distances.

This

EDIT: Also Bilbo those SRM's hurt.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 29 November 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[stjobe]

3rdworld, on 29 November 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Other ammo, damage location, heat. But ya no difference.

In damage to the target, no.
SSRM-2 does 5 damage (2.5 per missile).
SRM-2 does 5 damage (2.5 per missile)
SRM-4 does 10 damage (2.5 per missile)
SRM-6 does 15 damage (2.5 per missile).

OP says SSRM-2s always hit and does 5 damage.
I say that if only two of your SRMs hit, damage done is the same.
Fire 6, have 4 miss, 2 hit - 5 damage.

Capice?

[Bilbo]

TruePoindexter, on 29 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

What you are describing is not a range issue but missile hit percentage. Streaks are always 100% where SRM's are less. This is by design and kinda the point of Streaks.



This

EDIT: Also Bilbo those SRM's hurt.

Yes....Yes they do.

[Mu]

I think SRMs and non-boated SSRMs are fine the way they are right now.

SRMs used to have predictable flight paths and could reliably hit at 200m. They were crazy overpowered, it was like having a super-light LBX that did insane damage. The nerf made them unpredictable outside of melee range but they still did great damage up close, and Artemis SRMs feel just about right despite the tonnage/space sacrifice you make.

Also some weird mechs like the Cataphract 2X have arm launchers that help regular SRMs a bit.

[Roland]

Quote

So, at 270 meters, your 3 ton SRM6 is more like an SRM2... so why not use an SSRM2 and save yourself a couple extra tons? Not to mention you don't even have to predict your enemy's movement anymore.

Because I don't fire my SRM's from 270 meters away.

I fire them at point blank range, and then do 15 damage instead of 5.

[Pale Jackal]

Hayashi, on 29 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

The title is misleading. They may have 3 times the 'effective' range of srms according to your argument, but it's not 3 times the absolute range.

Of course. However, even if you aim perfectly, your SRM6 is not going to hit 100% at 270m. This is unlike the ER Large Laser - if you aim well enough, you can hit a target at 675 meters and apply full damage. With an SRM6, even with perfect aim, you will not hit with all your SRMs.

I love SRM6s, but I am trying to point out that MWO gives an advantage to Streaks beyond simply giving them a 100% hit rate. It gives them an advantage in terms of range as well.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 29 November 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[BigJim]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

. There is a reason you see Atlases with an AC20 and 3 SRM6s instead of an AC20 and 3 Streak SRM2s...

Unfortunately mate, I don't see the 3x SRM-6 any more, but I see 3x Strk all the time..

If I didn't know better I'd think that people who can't aim like auto-aim weapons, but what do I know ay?

[MrPenguin]

Mu, on 29 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I think SRMs and non-boated SSRMs are fine the way they are right now.

SRMs used to have predictable flight paths and could reliably hit at 200m. They were crazy overpowered, it was like having a super-light LBX that did insane damage. The nerf made them unpredictable outside of melee range but they still did great damage up close, and Artemis SRMs feel just about right despite the tonnage/space sacrifice you make.

Also some weird mechs like the Cataphract 2X have arm launchers that help regular SRMs a bit.

I wouldn't say they're unpredictable considering I've memorized the "box" they fly in and how it grows and morphs at range. That probably makes no sense to you but thats how I visualize it, its quite hard to explain. lol

[Hayashi]

Pale Jackal, on 29 November 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Of course. However, even if you aim perfectly, your SRM6 is not going to hit 100%. This is unlike the ER Large Laser - if you aim well enough, you can hit a target at 675 meters and apply full damage. With an SRM6, even with perfect aim, you will not hit with all your SRMs. I love SRM6s, but I am trying to point out that MWO gives an advantage to Streaks beyond simply giving them a 100% hit rate. It gives them an advantage in terms of range as well.

That's not what I meant. IIRC the SRMs detonate at 270m, so that is their absolute maximum range. You cannot get full damage between 675m and 1350m for an ER Large Laser, and you get zero damage beyond the maximum range, in pretty much the same way.

The analogy drawn is that in both cases, there is a maximum effective range (for SRM6, depending on the target, this could be as low as 50m) and there is a maximum range. Firing outside this is possible up to the maximum range, but in both cases you don't ever get the maximum damage - and the further you get, the lower the damage will get.

SSRMs have exactly the same maximum range as SRMs, but don't have the same maximum effective range - for SSRMs, maximum effective range = maximum range. Therefore it is correct to say that they have a greater maximum effective range, but misleading to say they have a greater maximum range.

Edited by Hayashi, 29 November 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Xyroc]

SRMs are not just a shotgun effect. Watch the spread from the side of another mech shooting them. They are tight at about 90m and 180m they spread out and then cluster again before spreading back out. But SSRMs are great for the light mech at your back unlike what Kristov claims just turn and put your back to a wall and fire away ( and if you have tag the lock is really fast ). Only thing the SSRM has going for it now that makes them OP is the amount visual disruption they give BUT they are going to nerf that soon so all is well

[Mu]

MrPenguin, on 29 November 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I wouldn't say they're unpredictable considering I've memorized the "box" they fly in and how it grows and morphs at range. That probably makes no sense to you but thats how I visualize it, its quite hard to explain. lol

you're right, that was the wrong word. The spread is wider and crazier, but they certainly do converge at certain distances. It's still much easier to place them all in one location with Artemis though.

[MrPenguin]

Mu, on 29 November 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

you're right, that was the wrong word. The spread is wider and crazier, but they certainly do converge at certain distances. It's still much easier to place them all in one location with Artemis though.

I'd rather save the cost, but I can predict these things with not very much thought so its not something I recommend everyone to do. xD

[Bilbo]

BigJim, on 29 November 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Unfortunately mate, I don't see the 3x SRM-6 any more, but I see 3x Strk all the time..

If I didn't know better I'd think that people who can't aim like auto-aim weapons, but what do I know ay?

The problem with 3x Strk, besides terrible damage output, is you have to line them up, get lock and fire, then line up again to get off the balistics. With the 3x SRM-6, the ballistics and missiles are the same aim point.