131 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

SamizdatCowboy, on 30 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Wrong. A cap win is going to net you a MAX of 7,500 CB: 5,000 for the cap win and 2,500 if you're in the cap zone.

Salvage bonus is FAR more lucrative. If you can get your teammates to kill the enemy EFFICIENTLY you are going to see a large salvage bonus on the order of 50-100K.

Hmm, 7500K or 50-100K... gee I dunno. Again though you have to be sure to kill efficiently, otherwise your salvage bonus will be more on the order of 15 - 40K (which still far exceeds capture win CB).

What does efficiently mean? Headshot or legs... the engine is one of the most valuable parts of the mech, so when you core an enemy you wipe out a huge chunk of his salvage value. If you HAVE to core him due to battlefield conditions (i.e. you'll die if you don't), do your best to core him CLEANLY, preserving his other components as best you can.


Cap wins aren't even all that great for XP: 125 XP, 75 for the cap win and 50 if you were in the cap zone. You'll easily net more than that with a combination of kill shots and kill assists.


Somewhere along the line 'teamwork' became synonymous with 'cap win' which became synonymous with 'more CB'... and that's all just a bunch of BS.

In fact, maximizing your salvage bonus by eliminating the entire other team requires the most teamwork since it's not enough to kill the enemy, it's not enough for just you to be efficient, rather you're whole team has to be efficient and your focus fire has to be efficient and you have to... kill the enemy.

Compare that to standing in a square twiddling your thumbs.

Now cap wins ARE useful if the issue is in doubt and your chances of knocking off the other team aren't looking so hot... at the end of the day a Win still provides the most CB, and better a cap win than no win at all.

I've said this in other threads but: This is Battletech, and the Battletech universe has always rewarded most killing things. Efficiently.


For more details on the whole salvage bonus thing I'd recommend this excellent thread by Vlad Ward:

http://mwomercs.com/...hwarrior-style/


And please do your part the next time some uninformed scrub parrots the whole 'cap is more CB,' baloney and kindly flame correct him.

Actually, I disagree.

A game won on a cap base rush takes about 2 minutes to complete. A fought game where you defeat all the enemies will usually take 8 minutes or more (unless you are a roflstomp pre-made).

The cap will make 105k cbills for the win (before bonuses) while the fighting might earn 180k or so. However, the cap rush has no repair and re-arm costs and is typically 4x faster to complete so the cbill earnings over time (which is what really matters) are higher.

If the opposing team is down to 1 mech then the salvage from that one mech is typically less than the amount that can be earned by capping. Especially since folks tend to blow up the last one indiscriminately instead of just taking out the legs ... which typically have no items/weapons to salvage anyway.

Finally, the only time I have seen capping happening mid-match is when the teams are pretty evenly matched and someone wants to force the opponents to return to their base to defend or lose. This will often split the opposing force at an opportune time for your team mates to take advantage ... assuming there is any coordination at all. In that case, I will be happy to take a cap win instead of a loss.

So, all in all, capping at the beginning, middle or end of the match almost always makes sense and usually results in greater cbill rewards over time than not capping.

[Joseph Mallan]

Right now it is no reason. But we are training ourselves to fail by this thinking. Capture the base missions are time sensitive because the "prize" may get off planet or be destroyed if you don't physically capture the base. If you kill the defenders you haven't captured the base you may have only defeated the skirmishers. So Actual capture of the base would be important to establish. As your employer if you came back and told me you killed the enemy but never actually captured the base, I'd take you to the MRBC and get my advance back for breech of contract. You killed the enemy you didn't capture the base as the contract specified.

BTW... I'm liking this discussion Merc. we are disagreeing, yet civil!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 November 2012 - 07:17 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 November 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Its almost done now. You get rewards for kills, assists, spotting, etc. All we need is something that tracks the Cap. If you defeat all enemy and don't cap the base you lose. You were sent to capture the base in the time allotted. Failure to do so means that the "prize" your boss was after got away. You failed. Now take the penalty. Similar to team kills would work for me.

That would work best when the Base itself has to be assaulted in order to Capture it. Under that circumstance, if a Team takes to long to actually deal with the Bases defenders, the time left to assault and Capture may not be long enough so despite removing the Bases moving defense, you lose the Match (or a large chunk of C-Bills, by not doing the real "job"

Now a Base doesn't need 40 Gauss turrets and 35 Streak launchers to slow down a Capture, but something that needs time to destroy via wearing it HP down. That then turns the need to be "efficient" with killing the Bases moving defenders all the more crucial. Lose to many attackers and there may not be enough total firepower left to get the Capture done in time.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 30 November 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[wanderer]

SamizdatCowboy, on 30 November 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

You'll have to ask Vlad where he got those numbers, but it seems right.

Vlad's right. Ideally, you max out salvage money by aiming for the spots with the lowest value components that will kill the 'Mech.

#1 is the legs, #2 is the head for that. Obviously, headshots can be worth it for speedy kills, but if you're not sure of the head shot, take them off at the ankles. The highest value single component is the engine. Kill the 'Mech without killing the engine, and you're in good shape.

But never, ever shoot up the torso otherwise if you can avoid it. Anything that damages the engine put the salvage value straight into the toilet for your kill, and damaging weapons and such is a good chunk of money as well. And of course, if you hit ammo and the whole thing blows up? You're screwed for salvage.

[Mercules]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 November 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Right now it is no reason. But we are training ourselves to fail by this thinking. Capture the base missions are time sensitive because the "prize" may get off planet or be destroyed if you don't physically capture the base. If you kill the defenders you haven't captured the base you may have only defeated the skirmishers. So Actual capture of the base would be important to establish. As your employer if you came back and told me you killed the enemy but never actually captured the base, I'd take you to the MRBC and get my advance back for breech of contract. You killed the enemy you didn't capture the base as the contract specified.

BTW... I'm liking this discussion Merc. we are disagreeing, yet civil!

Well, when contracts actually come into the game I would fulfill mine to the letter. Of course I would probably never work for the DC as they are notorious for bad contracts. I really can't wait until the Community Warfare aspect comes into the game. Unfortunately right now it is not there and so I work towards the accomplishment of winning the match which has two possible conditions: 1. Capture the Base 2. Remove defenders of said Base Since either condition fulfills the "contract" so to speak, I do whichever is more efficient at that time.

[Mawai]

SamizdatCowboy, on 30 November 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

...

Ok first of all... honorable. Yeah. Why does that remind of me something? Oh right!

Second, you do realize next to headshots legging is the most difficult (borderline stupid) strategy for killing an enemy right? There's a reason why it nets you second most salvage next to headshot.

Legging requires MORE damage than a core from the front. AND it does nothing to degrade the enemy mechs firepower. So lets think about this... takes more time because of more armor/internal health to drop and allows the enemy to retain their weapons. How exactly is this an easy way to kill someone again?

Well ... after you take out the first leg ... assuming your aim is decent ... they are a sitting duck. They can't turn fast enough to get their weapons aimed properly, they can't move, and it becomes extremely easy for everyone and their brother to hit that other leg.

Yes ... it take more damage to kill two legs than a typical center torso alone ... however, if you include misses against moving and rotating torso targets and the splash to adjacent torso sections the total fire is probably not that different since they are much easier to kill after one leg is gone.

If you add to that the tendency of some folks to put ammo in the legs ... then they make an even better target

Finally, the objective of the game is to kill enemy mechs ... (on this one I agree with Sam) there is nothing dishonorable about doing this by blowing up legs ... it is just extremely irritating to the person being attacked. If you were a clanner then maybe you would be correct ... but most here are inner sphere mercs whose goal is to maximize income, minimize costs and complete the contracts as expeditiously as possible

Edited by Mawai, 30 November 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[Do Legs]

SamizdatCowboy, on 30 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Hmm, 7500K or 50-100K... gee I dunno. Again though you have to be sure to kill efficiently, otherwise your salvage bonus will be more on the order of 15 - 40K (which still far exceeds capture win CB).

For the numbers you refer divide salvage on a team players number and multiply capture and you will see the difference. Still killer might possibly get better reward but for team as a whole capture is much more better.

[Indoorsman]

brundron, on 30 November 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

For the numbers you refer divide salvage on a team players number and multiply capture and you will see the difference. Still killer might possibly get better reward but for team as a whole capture is much more better.

Not if it takes more time than killing the last guy. Quicker option = more c-bills, that's how it works right now.

[SamizdatCowboy]

The reason I don't buy this is because it's based on an ideal: You consistently in back to back matches over a sustained period of time cap rush win.

The reality however is if you cap rush that early enemy mechs will come back to defend. It is uncommon to be able to cap rush and win without a shot being fired... that really only happens when the entire other team rushes the opposite flank (making it more of a cap 'race' than a cap rush).

At the end of the day even cap rushes usually devolve into pitched battles... and that there is the key. In the majority of cases a match is won by killing the other side, or at least subduing them to the point where they can no longer prevent a cap.

You have to fight, and the 'cap rush' ideal is not the match to match reality.

So when it comes to maximizing CB/h, you may in theory be right about quick turn around cap rushes, but in reality it comes down to killing the other side and HOW you kill the other side. Not capping.

Mawai, on 30 November 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Actually, I disagree.

A game won on a cap base rush takes about 2 minutes to complete. A fought game where you defeat all the enemies will usually take 8 minutes or more (unless you are a roflstomp pre-made).

The cap will make 105k cbills for the win (before bonuses) while the fighting might earn 180k or so. However, the cap rush has no repair and re-arm costs and is typically 4x faster to complete so the cbill earnings over time (which is what really matters) are higher.

If the opposing team is down to 1 mech then the salvage from that one mech is typically less than the amount that can be earned by capping. Especially since folks tend to blow up the last one indiscriminately instead of just taking out the legs ... which typically have no items/weapons to salvage anyway.

Finally, the only time I have seen capping happening mid-match is when the teams are pretty evenly matched and someone wants to force the opponents to return to their base to defend or lose. This will often split the opposing force at an opportune time for your team mates to take advantage ... assuming there is any coordination at all. In that case, I will be happy to take a cap win instead of a loss.

So, all in all, capping at the beginning, middle or end of the match almost always makes sense and usually results in greater cbill rewards over time than not capping.

[Mitta]

Will redirect them to this very usefull post. Thank you

[AvatarofWhat]

[Sprouticus]

Indoorsman, on 30 November 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

If it takes you more than one minute to cap, you are dilluting the money you already earned that match. Say you earned 7 kills which would be 250k money in the first 5 minutes(50k c-bills/min) and it takes your team only 60 seconds to cap, usually takes longer. But even in that case you get an extra 15k c-bills, dilluting your earnings to 265k/6min(44,167 c-bills/min). It would have made more sense to have killed the DC and started a new game. Time is a factor too.

Except CB is not the only factor.

You also get 125 XP (x8 players) for the Cap, which you will NOT get for that last kill. Especially if you are running a 4 man, that is a HUGE XP bonus

[Aware]

:cripes:

This is a game people. A game which I play to kill other mechs. I am going to do that first. 7500 CBills either way is worth nothing. Play more games have fun. I won't chase something faster than me just to get that last kill though I'll just go cap the base.

[Indoorsman]

Sprouticus, on 30 November 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Except CB is not the only factor.

You also get 125 XP (x8 players) for the Cap, which you will NOT get for that last kill. Especially if you are running a 4 man, that is a HUGE XP bonus

Except that c-bills are a bigger grind than XP. I'd rather c-bills 10% faster and xp 20% slower than c-bills 20% slower and xp 10% faster.

[Corvus Antaka]

Jason Parker, on 30 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Just to say: The moment when people yell "CAP, don't kill" is when all of the enemy team except the last AFK guy are dead already. And in this particular case: YES capping is indeed more effective than getting the salvage for that last kill. That often will not even be accounted for since the dude DC'ed post countdown.

This.

you should be trying to efficiently kill 7 enemy mechs, and then cap the base.

[Kaelus]

Kaolix, on 30 November 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Someone really needs to figure out the formula for salvage - I assume it's just a straight fraction of the total value of remaining bits on all dead mechs, but there's a possibility that components are valued differently to armour, or even that certain components (weapons, engines?) are valued differently to others (ammo, heatsinks?).
Has it ever been stated by PGI exactly how salvage works? or has anyone ever done extensive testing to figure it out? It'd be nice to be able to know that, say, a cap is always worth more than a light mech, or exactly how much cash you lose from coring that guy running an XL etc.

They already told us when they introduced it. It's based on internal structure and parts, the more that's left the more money you get. It's simple, just core it out or leg it, best money. Internal structure and stuff inside is the only thing that gives you money towards salvage. Granted salvage rewards are abysmal. Also I do not know if engines contribute, i suspect they don't based on my own observations.

"
Upon a mech’s death a value is calculated for each component’s inner structure health/weapon/module/remaining ammo that is scaled to the amount of health that component has remaining
If a component is completely destroyed no salvage will be awarded for that component.
Each point of inner structure health is worth 685 C-Bills (armor is not included in salvage)
Weapons and modules are currently worth their store value scaled against remaining health in that component. If a component is at 50% health, then that weapon is worth 50% of its normal value. This will change in the future when the critical hit system is fully functional, since each weapon and module will have its own health values.
Ammo is currently worth their normal store value at 1 ton and then is scaled against the remaining ammo.
Salvage is only awarded to the winning team, and only the dead mechs on the opposing team contribute to the salvage value.
Salvage is then divided up evenly amongst eligible players (early disconnects do not get awarded)."

Edited by Kaelus, 30 November 2012 - 08:14 AM.

[AHZeruel]

Jason Parker, on 30 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Just to say: The moment when people yell "CAP, don't kill" is when all of the enemy team except the last AFK guy are dead already. And in this particular case: YES capping is indeed more effective than getting the salvage for that last kill. That often will not even be accounted for since the dude DC'ed post countdown.

That,

[Indoorsman]

Jason Parker, on 30 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Just to say: The moment when people yell "CAP, don't kill" is when all of the enemy team except the last AFK guy are dead already. And in this particular case: YES capping is indeed more effective than getting the salvage for that last kill. That often will not even be accounted for since the dude DC'ed post countdown.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

you should be trying to efficiently kill 7 enemy mechs, and then cap the base.

You guys don't seem to understand farming. You may get more money per win if you kill 7 and cap, but your wins will take longer and averaged out you will make LESS money per hour.

[Vlad Ward]

SamizdatCowboy, on 30 November 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

You'll have to ask Vlad where he got those numbers, but it seems right.

So if you have one Atlas left at 75% health, and assuming an 11,000,000 CB retail value a fully efficient kill would net you:

11,000,000 * 0.75 * 0.2 / 8 = 20,625 CB of salvage.

If you have a Jenner left at 20% health, and assuming an 3,000,000 CB retail value an efficient kill on what's left of that jen would net you:

3,000,000CB * 0.20 * 0.2 / 8 = 1,500 CB

This is why it's a gray area as to what the right decision is... it depends on the specific situation.

That equation was actually pulled directly from the Closed Beta patch notes where Salvage bonus was introduced. Any Founder or previous Closed Beta tester should be able to pull up their email inbox and find the release for Closed Beta Update #12 (Tuesday, September 25th, 2012) to confirm.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

This.

you should be trying to efficiently kill 7 enemy mechs, and then cap the base.

Only if the last (usually afk/disconnected) enemy Mech has a total equipment value below 3,000,000 c-bills.

Anything else will yield a higher Salvage bonus than Cap bonus - especially if they're afk since there's no reason not to get a perfectly clean cockpit kill.

[Corvus Antaka]

Vlad Ward, on 30 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

That equation was actually pulled directly from the Closed Beta patch notes where Salvage bonus was introduced. Any Founder or previous Closed Beta tester should be able to pull up their email inbox and find the release for Closed Beta Update #12 (Tuesday, September 25th, 2012) to confirm.




Only if the last (usually afk/disconnected) enemy Mech has a total equipment value below 3,000,000 c-bills.

Anything else will yield a higher Salvage bonus than Cap bonus - especially if they're afk since there's no reason not to get a perfectly clean cockpit kill.

Well, then maybe PGI should fix this