100 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

To be honest the game needs a complete heat system revamp. Because trial/stock mechs will never work properly under the current heat system. But until the heat system is revamped, I'd like to see the following changes to large energy weapons...


ERLL
-Heat reduced from 10 to 9

PPC
-Heat stays at 9 (PPCs should be heat spike weapons)
-Damage increased to 11 (should do more damage than a large pulse laser)
-Cooldown increased to 3.5 (increasing the cooldown reduces the heat buildup considerably)
-PPC does half damage if fired within minimum range
-EMP effect added that disrupts hud/targetting for ~1 second

ERPPC
-Heat reduced from 13 to 11
-Damage increased to 11 (should do more damage than a large pulse laser)
-Cooldown increased to 3.5 (increasing the cooldown reduces the heat buildup considerably)
-EMP effect added that disrupts hud/targetting for ~1 second

Edited by Khobai, 01 December 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[Cebi]

verybad, on 30 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

How about changing the ER damage after optimal range to go down to 75% rather than 50% at maximum range?

ER weapons are highly inoptimal, this might give them some of their pizazz back,

Emm, doesn't damage drop to 0 at maximum range? i.e. Large pulse range 300, from 300 to 600 linear drop so at 600 it will do 0 damage.

:?

[Timelordwho]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

To be clear, popular ideas were: Faster PPC projectile; shorter bean duration for LL/ERLL; much less heat on PPC.

The first two make a lot of sense, but I think the PPC should be buffed in another way, so it fulfills a role that lasers don't already fill.

I personally thing they should fill the role of high damage, long range, resource intensive(heat) sniping tools. In sorta the Gauss rifle's niche, but favoring short engagements over sustained fights. If you pushed the damage up from 10->12, and improved the muzzle velocity (Somewhere north of Gauss speed, in the 1600-2400 range?) would make this a credible threat.

[Pariah Devalis]

My possibly unpopular opinion on the PPC travel time is not to change it. It has the same speed as gauss, and gauss travel time is not an issue. Convergence and/or net code is. If the heat penalties were not so terrible, that alone would likely up their usage. If heat AND convergence issues were fixed, it would be wonderful. I find heat management less a skill and more a limiter on how often I shoot, whereas leading shots properly feels more skillful to me. The inherent advantages the ERPPC has over the standard seem worth while to me, if it wasn't for the atrocious heat trade off on an already hot weapon.

As for the suggested ER laser differences, having a faster burn time WOULD be a fantastic reason to choose them.

[New Day]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

To be clear, popular ideas were: Faster PPC projectile; shorter bean duration for LL/ERLL; much less heat on PPC.

So are you planning to do any of those things anytime soon (and how soon)? Since I started playing there was always ******** about gauss being OP and PPCs UP. Gauss's are getting nerfed, so why no love for PPCs?

[SpiralRazor]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

The most popular ideas around the studio for this currently:
1) Make LL/ERLL have very quick fire time - about fast as a SL.
2) Make PPC shots hit much, much, much, much faster and have less heat.

Man...im actually going to have to say something positive about whats being talked about then, because both of these need to be implemented yesterday.


See, i can say nice things.

[Deadoon]

NamesAreStupid, on 01 December 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

So are you planning to do any of those things anytime soon (and how soon)? Since I started playing there was always ******** about gauss being OP and PPCs UP. Gauss's are getting nerfed, so why no love for PPCs?

Dude gauss are barely being nerfed, they are a great weapon, always has been, just they tend to explode. The 'nerf' id merely making them explode when critted, like they have always meant to. The explosion isn't even that big, either, it is only 20 points.

[ManDaisy]

I dunno, I'm sorta worried about changing the beam duration of the LL/ER LL because it obsoletes the large pulse laser. Also, it makes this game closer and closer to twitch style fighting. The Hold on damage is the only thing keeping lasers from being supreme. Instant damage lasers are somethig that should be avoided.

Edited by ManDaisy, 01 December 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Vapor Trail]

If they upped it to the point where it would blow out the torso (probably 40 pts or so) then it would probably be slightly more worrisome. Gausskitty + XL + Gauss Crit =Should= Dead Gausskitty.

In other news, I've been running a single AC20 in a K2 build lately. In every game I've played it in, I've lost the dang thing before I died, sometimes seconds, sometimes (if I get into cover fast enough) a minute or two before.

The fragility of the AC/20 is slightly annoying.

[Pariah Devalis]

The gaussplosion will really only effect mechs with gauss-in-torso setups, IMO. Those who place it in arms, at least in my designs anyways, probably would not care too much, given if the gauss is gone, the arm is practically worthless outside of short term armor anyways.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Strum Wealh, on 01 December 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Two Medium Lasers will deliver 10 units of damage to a single area over the course of one full second at a distance of 270 meters or less, generate 8 units of heat, and will recycle every three seconds.

One PPC will deliver 10 units of damage to a single area immediately upon impact at a distance of 90 to 540 meters, generate 9 units of heat, and will recycle every three seconds.

One ER-PPC will deliver 10 units of damage to a single area immediately upon impact at a distance of 810 meters or less, generate 13 units of heat, and will recycle every three seconds.

The PPC delivers the same amount of damage at twice the range of the Medium Lasers, requires fewer hardpoints on a 'Mech, and has no concerns for "burn time" (making it better-suited for "off-the-hip" shots).
The ER-PPC has the same manner of advantages over the Medium Lasers as the standard PPC, while being able to reach thrice as far and being able to deliver that same 10 units of damage from barrel to range.

The primary advantages to using two Medium Lasers within their niche (instead of PPCs or ER-PPCs) is the lesser tonnage and (rather slight, in comparison to the standard PPC) lesser heat generation.

Lessening the heat too far on the PPC and ER-PPC (moreso with the former than the latter) removes one of the primary reasons to take Medium Lasers (among other things) in their stead, and is likely to result in close- and medium-range weapons being wholly ignored (or very nearly so) in favor of boated PPCs/ER-PPCs.

As noted above, twin Medium Lasers will produce 8 units of heat per salvo versus the PPC's current 9 units of heat per salvo.
They will deliver the same damage, for very nearly the same heat generation, at half of the range.
They will consume more hardpoints, and they don't even have the advantage of cycling more quickly.

Unless one has a rather tight tonnage or space budget or plans to constantly fight at ranges of less than 90 meters, why would one take two Medium Lasers over an equally cool-running (or potentially cooler-running) PPC?

That the proverbial "workhorse weapon of the Inner Sphere", among others, would become obsolete is part of why the PPC and ER-PPC heat levels are better off where they are.

you fail to understand the Lasers of all sorts are hitscan......ballistic style weapons are MUCH harder to use due to convergence, travel speed, netcode, and server side authentication.

ManDaisy, on 01 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

I dunno, I'm sorta worried about changing the beam duration of the LL/ER LL because it obsoletes the large pulse laser. Also, it makes this game closer and closer to twitch style fighting. The Hold on damage is the only thing keeping lasers from being supreme. Instant damage lasers are somethig that should be avoided.

LPL deals more damage, and faster...it trades range for speed and damage...

[New Day]

Deadoon, on 01 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Dude gauss are barely being nerfed, they are a great weapon, always has been, just they tend to explode. The 'nerf' id merely making them explode when critted, like they have always meant to. The explosion isn't even that big, either, it is only 20 points.

Only 20 damage? They're also getting their internal health dropped [sic] substantially.

Edited by NamesAreStupid, 01 December 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

The ammo thing isnt really a valid point to argue with the game as it is currently. If we havent won or lost by the time ive dumped 450-500 rounds of AC/2 or 200 rounds of AC/5, then it wouldnt have mattered if i was using PPCs, guass or ACs anyway.

NamesAreStupid, on 01 December 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

Only 20 damage? They're also getting their internal health dropped [sic] substantially.

If its 20 points of armor damage, thats nothing..if its 20 points of internal or compenent damage, well..thats considerable

[New Day]

SpiralRazor, on 01 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

The ammo thing isnt really a valid point to argue with the game as it is currently. If we havent won or lost by the time ive dumped 450-500 rounds of AC/2 or 200 rounds of AC/5, then it wouldnt have mattered if i was using PPCs, guass or ACs anyway.




If its 20 points of armor damage, thats nothing..if its 20 points of internal or compenent damage, well..thats considerable

"...In the section about Ammo Explosions it states that damage from such is applied directly to Internal Structure until all Internal Structure at that location is destroyed. Then any remaining damage is passed directly to the Internal Structure of the appropriate adjoining section..."

[verybad]

The EMP effect should also have a chance at rebooting some delicate systems.

For example Hit an ECM or BAP carrying mech with one PPC 5% chance of rebooting the ECM per PPC hit. 10% if that hit is inside armor (critical) Perhaps a chance at breaking missile locks or communication with other members of that team.

Make the PPCs a great weapon like htey used to be. They look good already, now make 'em nasty. Giving them a bit of an anti ECM capability would make them unique, and very cool.

****

Back to ER weapons, perhaps making their burn time shorter if they're firing at a further away target? Give them standard heat within normal weapon ranges, but hgiher heat and faster burn outside normal weapon ranges.

This, along with only 75% damage outside of optimal ranges to maximum ranges would make them viable.

For pulse weapons, reduce the burn time at closer ranges. This makes THEM more viable at close ranges.

[LionZoo]

ManDaisy, on 01 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

I dunno, I'm sorta worried about changing the beam duration of the LL/ER LL because it obsoletes the large pulse laser. Also, it makes this game closer and closer to twitch style fighting. The Hold on damage is the only thing keeping lasers from being supreme. Instant damage lasers are somethig that should be avoided.

I think something would have to be done to recycle time to distinguish the two weapons. For example, decreasing MPL* and LPL recycle time to 2.5-2.75 would make them more effective as brawler weapons. Add in a slightly higher corresponding heat for the ERLL compare to the LPL (maybe 1 more heat?) would adequately distinguish the weapons and make it so that LPL would have a niche at short range and ERLL would be better utilized for long range.

*As it is, the MPL is a special use weapon compared to the general use ML; the only real advantage of the MPL over the ML is for hunting lights. Having a quicker recycle would make them more general use.

Edited by LionZoo, 01 December 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

The most popular ideas around the studio for this currently:
1) Make LL/ERLL have very quick fire time - about fast as a SL.

To be honest... LL is fine. It's a good weapon.

As for the ER... Why not just give them a reasonable heat ratio? And then give small lasers a reasonable heat ratio.

Quote

2) Make PPC shots hit much, much, much, much faster and have less heat.

Fix the netcode first. Then start adjusting travel-time weapons.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 01 December 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

HRR Insanity, on 01 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

To be honest... LL is fine. It's a good weapon.

As for the ER... Why not just give them a reasonable heat ratio? And then give small lasers a reasonable heat ratio.



Fix the netcode first. Then start adjusting travel-time weapons.

Making it hitscan, or nearly so, makes it so it doesnt have to worry about sloppy netcode...Also, thats the way it should be according to all the novels..

[SteelPaladin]

Timelordwho, on 01 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

The first two make a lot of sense, but I think the PPC should be buffed in another way, so it fulfills a role that lasers don't already fill.

I personally thing they should fill the role of high damage, long range, resource intensive(heat) sniping tools. In sorta the Gauss rifle's niche, but favoring short engagements over sustained fights. If you pushed the damage up from 10->12, and improved the muzzle velocity (Somewhere north of Gauss speed, in the 1600-2400 range?) would make this a credible threat.

No way. I'm fine w/tweaking numbers and all sorts of things away from tabletop because this is a different game, but it is still the same universe and I am strongly against completely discarding the well-established feel of that universe. PPCs are not niche sniper weapons. They are the primary heavy energy weapon of the Inner Sphere.

If your mech is going to have energy armament for its primary battery, your first choice is a PPC, end of story. If you don't have the tonnage because your mech is lighter and you don't want to build it completely around a PPC, THEN you look at a Large Laser instead. If you want long range punch, but you still expect to be doing a lot of brawling, THEN you look at a Large Laser instead. (If you're Marik and can't get your hands on PPCs that aren't PoSes, then you look at Large Lasers instead.) There are all sorts of situations that make lasers more attractive (and there should be), but the PPC is the gold standard baseline for heavy energy weapons (just like its counterpart the AC/10 was to ballistics until the advent of tech 2).

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Bloody, on 30 November 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

PGI wants you to use ammo weaponry as that costs money and becomes a viable cash sink. /shrug

That almost makes sense, except that you can opt out of paying the Rearm fee and ride with 75% bullets/missiles for free. No smart player pays his Rearm fee anymore. It's just a waste of money.