118 replies to this topic

[Kyrie]

Taryys, on 30 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

The podcast has been up for over 2 weeks.
Your comment has no place in this thread.
3rd person is not being discussed.
Thread crapping... not cool!

A minor point of information -- the Russ Bullock interview was Nov 20th if I am not mistaken, and the NGNG pinned thread was updated Nov. 28; making it definitely less than two weeks. :-)

The OP posted that one of the significant immersion factors was "first person", and not "3rd person", injecting a comment showing which direction the game is going towards seems on-topic to me. I was being cheeky, I'll admit -- but not intending to crap on the thread as you suggest.

The fact that this is such a hot-button subject reflects that perhaps there are deep seated problems with incorporating a 3rd person view.

I am sort of neutral on the subject -- I understood the business logic Russ invoked in the NGNG interview. If it helps get a better CW experience I can deal with presence or absence of 3rd person equally well.

Edited by Kyrie, 30 November 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Shismar]

Troll or sock puppet is my vote.

Seriously, trial mechs could be a little lower on heat, which would simply mean removing some weapons. Other than that they are fine and I see trials doing well in pugs all the time. Premade groups running trials will still wipe the floor with bad pugs as well, but that, communication, is not the topic.

Everything else has been said before. Training map/tutorial level is required and C3 integration has to be default on drop.

[Taryys]

Me too.

p4r4g0n, on 30 November 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Looking forward to seeing the new user flow when they get round to it.

In either case bringing up 3rd person here is thread crapping and still not cool.

Kyrie, on 30 November 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

A minor point of information -- the Russ Bullock interview was Nov 20th if I am not mistaken, and the NGNG pinned thread was updated Nov. 28; making it definitely less than two weeks. :-)

Edited by Taryys, 30 November 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

Taryys, on 30 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

The podcast has been up for over 2 weeks.

Kyrie is probably referring to #52 which only just been made available a week or more after it was recorded. Doesn't really say anything new really and was probably just a response to all the hooha.

[Pendraco]

Taryys, on 30 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Sorry to hear that.
Come back in a few months.

This at the very least, I think once community warfare is in place, we have several game modes and tons more 'Mechs / Maps available the game will stand on it's own regaurdless of the trial grind (It is here to stay isn't it?)

[Carcass23]

I too cannot shake the notion that the OP is just another of our long time players, using a new account to give the illusion that the young rats are all fleeing a sinking ship. Wether or not this is true is irrelavant since IMBF opinion, we have lost nothing but someone who cannot grasp the concept of playing by the rules. This has become annoying and may the gods have mercy on your soul.

[Kyrie]

p4r4g0n, on 30 November 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Kyrie is probably referring to #52 which only just been made available a week or more after it was recorded. Doesn't really say anything new really and was probably just a response to all the hooha.

Indeed, episode 52 just got released. Russ basically just talked about 3rd person -- and defended it as a necessary step towards growing the customer base. He made the case that it was a necessary business decision in other words. While this is not a guarantee we will see it implemented any time soon, it is clear evidence in my mind that this is the direction the game will be taken in.

I wont belabor the point -- and I apologize to Taryys for bringing it up. But I honestly couldn't resist at the time.

[Taryys]

You are bad. You should feel bad.

Kyrie, on 30 November 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

I wont belabor the point -- and I apologize to Taryys for bringing it up. But I honestly couldn't resist at the time.

Edited by Taryys, 30 November 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[JediMastaDJ]

The Cool, on 30 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Man, these trial mechs. They overheat like crazy, and I feel like I can't even fire very much before i get shut down.

I'm not able to do much damage, and I feel like in the trial mechs, I'm just a stand in for NPCs, that I'm nothing more than target practice.

I could purchase my own mech, but from what I hear, and from the stats I've seen, even if I win while taking very little damage, i won't make as much as if I just ran a trial mech and immediately killed myself.

Seriously, this game does not make me want to actually play it.

It'd be better if I had some incentive to actively play...

Y'all's thoughts?

Did you watch the tutorial video on heat management and changing your weapon groupings? That in and of itself should solve 75% of your issues.

[Kraven Kor]

The Cool, on 30 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Man, these trial mechs. They overheat like crazy, and I feel like I can't even fire very much before i get shut down.

I'm not able to do much damage, and I feel like in the trial mechs, I'm just a stand in for NPCs, that I'm nothing more than target practice.

I could purchase my own mech, but from what I hear, and from the stats I've seen, even if I win while taking very little damage, i won't make as much as if I just ran a trial mech and immediately killed myself.

Seriously, this game does not make me want to actually play it.

It'd be better if I had some incentive to actively play...

Y'all's thoughts?

Yeah, I'm sure you aren't at all swayed by a certain poster's posts and came up with that "I'm just a stand in for an NPC" all on your own. OK maybe a bit paranoid, but I know how some people can be...

Note: If you do well in a Trial Mech, you will own face in anything else.

The main problem is Trial Mechs facing 4-Man premades in custom mechs. Matchmaker is the fix, really. That being said, I wouldn't complain if they did away with the trial mech system.

[Taryys]

QFT

Kraven Kor, on 30 November 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Note: If you do well in a Trial Mech, you will own face in anything else.

The main problem is Trial Mechs facing 4-Man premades in custom mechs. Matchmaker is the fix, really.

I think we should keep the trial mechs. They definitely need improvement.
They can be a valuable learning tool just because they are so sub-optimal for MWO.
My thread-which-shall-not-be-named (in my sig) has fixes for much the probs.

Kraven Kor, on 30 November 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

That being said, I wouldn't complain if they did away with the trial mech system.

[Kyrie]

If we want to discuss trial mechs, I would like put in my two c-bills:

-The heat efficiency of trial mechs should basically never drop below 1.1. The current batch has a max eff of 0.9; making them quite troublesome to play.

-I would honestly prefer a non-stock approach for trial mechs, designing a few with a basic 1.1-1.2 heat efficiency based on common roles

• Brawler
  
• Scout
  
• Support
  
• Skirmisher (hit and run)

I would have common design schemes rotated in different chassis based on the typical roles found in organized team play. Make them somewhat sub-optimal, but not crushingly sub-optimal as is the current batch.


By starting with roles as the design philosophy for trial mechs we get the new players introduced to what is actually happening on the battlefield; they get an idea to what their mech is "supposed" to do.

Edited by Kyrie, 30 November 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Taryys]

Yea, the trial mechs do basically blow. I like your basic ideas, if they took that approach. I also understand why you would like the non-stock mech approach too, but I cannot imagine that they would go that way for 2 reason:

A. Stock mechs are canon. There would be no end to the threadrage.
B. Because they suck they are a good learning tool as to why they suck.

I say this mostly keeping in mind my thread on how to fix the game which utilizes the the crappy stock mechs as a learning tool because they suck. Almost anything will be an improvement from what we have now.


I am downloading #52 now.

Edited by Taryys, 30 November 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

beniliusbob, on 30 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

I don't have a problem, I just... this post... it's so... perfect... it's not a newbie's post. Am I seriously the only one who thinks The Cool is a troll? Ah, well.

yeah..youre the only one.

[Kyrie]

Taryys, on 30 November 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yea, the trial mechs do basically blow. I like your basic ideas, if they took that approach. I also understand why you would like the non-stock mech approach too, but I cannot imagine that they would go that way for 2 reason:

A. Stock mechs are canon. There would be no end to the threadrage.
B. Because they suck they are a good learning tool as to why they suck.

I say this mostly keeping in mind my thread on how to fix the game which utilizes the the crappy stock mechs as a learning tool because they suck. Almost anything will be an improvement from what we have now.


I am downloading #52 now.

Not sure I understand the stock mechs are canon reason for not doing it -- the canon mechs are quite broken in this game with all the changes PGI has made to the canon rules. Put in canon rules, then I'll accept the stock mech argument.

Point B scares me, its going to drive away the average, sub average gaming crowd PGI wants to attract (as seen in #52).

I suspect that when we get CW we'll have to revisit this again in its entirety, there is likely to be a whole new economic system making "crap mechs" vitally important once again.

My proposal is more of a short-term fix pending CW/new economy. Get people into the game with easier to play mechs and you are likely to increase your conversion rate. The current approach is too punishing, operating under the theory that if I punish my users enough they will give me money to escape the pain.

This "pain" approach presupposes the user is already hooked into the game, which may not be the case. Lacking access to the stats, I am quite obviously only speculating, however. Only PGI knows.

Edited by Kyrie, 30 November 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Sevaradan]

The Cool, on 30 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Man, these trial mechs. They overheat like crazy, and I feel like I can't even fire very much before i get shut down.

I'm not able to do much damage, and I feel like in the trial mechs, I'm just a stand in for NPCs, that I'm nothing more than target practice.

I could purchase my own mech, but from what I hear, and from the stats I've seen, even if I win while taking very little damage, i won't make as much as if I just ran a trial mech and immediately killed myself.

Seriously, this game does not make me want to actually play it.

It'd be better if I had some incentive to actively play...

Y'all's thoughts?

get over it. trials are supposed to be inferior to mechs you've earned.

[Taryys]

I cannot believe that they specifically made the Trials to suck.
They are stock/canon and that is it. They just happen to suck due to the translation to a FPS.
It is also convenient that they happen to be used for trials.

Sevaradan, on 30 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

get over it. trials are supposed to be inferior to mechs you've earned.

[Taryys]

Agreed. You do bring about some good short term solutions to the trial grind.
Faction specific trials would be interesting too.

If some of the ideas from my thread are used, trials will be just fine.
Using some of my suggestions is the key to making trial mechs palatable. (see my sig).

Kyrie, on 30 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Not sure I understand the stock mechs are canon reason for not doing it -- the canon mechs are quite broken in this game with all the changes PGI has made to the canon rules. Put in canon rules, then I'll accept the stock mech argument.

Point B scares me, its going to drive away the average, sub average gaming crowd PGI wants to attract (as seen in #52).

I suspect that when we get CW we'll have to revisit this again in its entirety, there is likely to be a whole new economic system making "crap mechs" vitally important once again.

My proposal is more of a short-term fix pending CW/new economy. Get people into the game with easier to play mechs and you are likely to increase your conversion rate. The current approach is too punishing, operating under the theory that if I punish my users enough they will give me money to escape the pain.

This "pain" approach presupposes the user is already hooked into the game, which may not be the case. Lacking access to the stats, I am quite obviously only speculating, however. Only PGI knows.

[John Norad]

Jace11, on 30 November 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Maybe a stalker trial mech will be viable when it arrives. All variants have heavy missile load outs.

This is a joke, right?
The standard Stalker has:
2 Large Lasers
4 Medium Lasers
2 SRM6
2 LRM10
20 Single Heat Sinks
How is this not the worst possible trial mech? It's a newbie cooker.

The solution?
1. Implement proper SHS with a 1.5 - 2.0 value. Try it before you start naysaying.
2. Reduce heat capacity and implement overheat penalties. Make players choose between burst damage with penalty and staggered fire without penalty.
3. If dps is too high and matches too short, reduce weapon damage instead of heat dissipation. It sounds silly, but yes, it's possible to shoot more than once per 10s and still do damage similar to the TT.

The heat system shouldn't be balanced around the 4 MLaser of a Jenner. It should be balanced around the loadout of a heavy or assault mech. Light mechs are capped by tonnage anyway. Heavy mechs are currently crippled by the heat neutrality boogieman.
If PGI fears their RoF changes could result in short matches (well at least that fear is founded), they should've decreased dps instead of encumbering most mechs with an inadequate heat system.

Edited by John Norad, 30 November 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Beo Vulf]

Kyrie, on 30 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Not possible. Current trials are 0.84 to 0.9 at best.

Weird I jsut ran 4 matches in a trial Jenner to test yoour hypothisis, and had no problem averaged 1 over heat a match and I see peole in thier custom mechs over heat more than that. Heat rating on the trial jenner is 0.9 and it is still playable.