191 replies to this topic

[Hayashi]

Had a game before, attempted to coordinate as usual.

This guy went,

'
forget it I'll try to cap the base
man I'm going to look like a jerk if this doesn't work
'

He died, disconnected 5 seconds later, we lost the game, I felt like shooting him, except he was already dead.

An apology would have been nice. The annoying thing about people who try to play tricks like this is not that they're going to die. The problem is when there's someone who declares he's not going to play along, 2-3 other mechs usually start to stray away and do their own thing too. That's the effect that kills the match. In addition to being down one mech from the start.

It happens. >.>

Edited by Hayashi, 01 December 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[FerretGR]

Hayashi, on 01 December 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

forget it I'll try to cap the base
man I'm going to look like a jerk if this doesn't work

He had one thing right

[Konrad]

Lefty Lucy, on 01 December 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

No, at that point I usually say "oh it looks like those guys are doing their own thing so just follow them."

Doesn't mean they shouldn't take 30 seconds to let the rest of the team know what's up though.

Solos don't say, hey I'm solo. Pointless comments bro.

Edited by Konrad, 01 December 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Dreamslave]

Huge generalizations (for example, the title of this thread) make you look the fool.

Throughout the entire 1st phase, I've only dropped with 4 man groups and every single time I let the pugs know that we are a 4 man premade in voice and I tell them where to set up. Whether or not they listen or want to be rambo's is completely up to them at that point.

[cmopatrick]

hmmm... do i really want to get into this one?

4 person limited groups are rather a challenge. limited roles and inability to communicate quickly are the principal liabilities. i generally scout, if you haven't tried communicating with a team while trying to runaway... well... for me it is less than useful...

i try to tell folks not to follow me on the initial scout run, a lot of folks will see one mech head off in a given direction (like the tunnel on the frozen cities) and suddenly they all turn and follow... oblivious of the fact that you are just going to the e4 mid-tunnel exit and stopping to listen for approaching enemy mechs... or that i plan to run away and draw the enemy into a kill zone if they show up before i'm needed elsewhere. explaining that while trying to pilot seems useless (shorter explanations are either not understood or not cared about. so why deal with a tactical nightmare of explaining the reasoning to those who may or may not even read it, let alone use that knowledge.

further, when i do drop solo pug, i die maybe one in seven times because i am trying to type at the same time as i am trying to pilot.

suggesting an area usually helps, but when discipline is required, say to stay behind the ridge in frozen or caustic for them to come over the top... well... if the folks aren't good to start with, it is time wasted while the enemy gets a free shot. the downside to the 4 slot pre is that we have done such a good job selling the value of comms that a lot of new folks get on but have no real understanding of how to call targets or manage the tactical or verbal game. playing with a pre/pug that is thus inexperienced is more akin to a all solo pug group... al the more so if the inexperienced TACCOM gets... er... overbearing.

that said, when i drop solo pug, i try to ask up from if there are any pres, and if they have any plans or orders. watching to see if a lance moves out together pretty quickly will usually get me focused on them, and i try to be smart enough to shoot at the folks they are shootin.

[Bad Karma 308]

I Pug simply because my schedule make it really hard to stay established to any group. I stated playing back in September and I can honestly say that I have never once had anyone identify themselves as a premade group, never.

Regardless, if someone does offer up any semblance of a plan; Good, bad, or indifferent, I will go with it and support it to the best of my ability. And usually I've notice that several other puggers will follow along as well. Problems come in the middle of the match when all text communications cease completely. The plan goes to hell rather quickly at that point. But I have also seen a few really good commanders who keep the flow up throughout and wound up showing the puggers how to really make it work, regardless of a win or loss. That's the guy I'd want to be in a premade or clan with.

People who never attempt to make contact and are so blatantly willing to write off every pug are just arrogant and obtuse. If the premade isn't willing to make any attempt at reaching out then what makes them think people would care to listen to them ***** and moan about it here. Really it boils down to a sign of poor leadership in the premade.

Clans that untimely have the most success are ones who actually take a vested interest in not only its people but also heavily invests itself in actively assisting the whole community.

[Dreamslave]

Bad Karma 308, on 01 December 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

I Pug simply because my schedule make it really hard to stay established to any group.

Good news is there are a vast amount of MercGroups and clans out there that don't have a set amount of play time required in order for you to join and drop with them. You and any other solo players out there should sincerely look into these groups, as dropping with a team is in every way superior to going solo.

[M Jordanus Sicarius]

Banky, on 01 December 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

I know I chimed in on another thread like this earlier in the week - and in truth, a lot of times when you're PuGing, the groupsters couldn't care less - and just ignore you... but it's certainly not "all" the time. Heck, it's probably not even half of the time for me. Even when they do, it's usually not rocket science to watch who's moving together and to gleen what they're up to...

The easiest thing is for PuGs to "try" to make the initial effort to open the communication. By and large this just isn't happening - and I don't fault the premade crowd one bit for getting turned off by it. If you drop in for a game and there's nothing but silence? And in the games I drop in that's all there is 80% of the time. It makes it look like you just don't care... so in all fairness to the premade/voip guys, why should they? It's going to go away (hopefully) to some extent soon... but still. It's kinda like watching a bunch of 5 year olds giving each other the silent treatment.

Going in a direction without saying it doesn't look organized even if it is, it just looks like one person went that way and the people close to him followed. If there is no direction, you can't expect everyone to follow, especially on maps like Caustic where there is about 4 or 5 different directions and if you don't say the plan people tend to scatter/or run into the caldera. River City is really the only one where you can tell the plan without people talking.

The thing is, is the groups aren't going to talk, they aren't going to respond to PUGs. I had a game where me and the 3 others were talking, discusisng a plan but the other 4 were just doing their own thing. Eventually one guy tells us to stop "clogging up his groups screen with chat". If a premade doesn't make the inital talk, chances are they won't respond if PUGs attempt to discuss strategy.

[Hayashi]

Dreamslave, on 01 December 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Good news is there are a vast amount of MercGroups and clans out there that don't have a set amount of play time required in order for you to join and drop with them. You and any other solo players out there should sincerely look into these groups, as dropping with a team is in every way superior to going solo.

The group I started doesn't have a set drop time. As a result, there's often few or no people online, but it works out for us.

There's also a thread in which people who don't want to commit themselves to any group post to indicate their interest - everyone on the thread adds each other, and when they see anyone else online they just form a group. No C3 or voice comms I believe, but knowing some of the people over time means you can better play along with each other's styles.

Lastly, you can also add as friends players ingame you want to know/drop with, and use the same tactic.

Edited by Hayashi, 01 December 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

FerretGR, on 01 December 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

I've had that happen to me, and it sucks. I've posted about that as well. But I consistently (almost every match) try to chat up the PUGs or premades and I haven't had this kind of a response in... well, a long time. I think I posted about it during CB and that's the last time it happened to me. I found that it was a response to the perception of having orders "barked at them"... I started asking if a plan sounded good instead of telling people what they should do, and it seemed to work out better, confrontation-wise at least. It was a case of getting more flies with honey or what have you I guess

I can't give you stats. But if I could, and I said for every jerky jerk, you'd get two games with good players who'd try their best to follow the plan, that'd be worth it, wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong. Despite my typical forum persona, anyone in my corps can tell you I'm pretty darn laid back in-game. I don't give orders, I make requests. Because of this, a serious jerk may only come along every 3-5 matches at best. The thing is, I don't believe that's worth it.

Jerks ruin my day. I don't have any desire to put up with them. I always play in groups no matter what online game it is purely for this reason. Being in a group means I know the people I'm playing with, and if one of them turns out to be a jerk then we can just boot him. Rather than fight with these sorts of people, I'd rather just remove myself from the situations that place me with them.

As I said, I do appreciate that some people have more patience for this kind of thing than I do. But this is my free time. I'm here to relax, have fun, and shoot Atlases in the back. I have no obligation to give someone else the cause or chance to ruin that for me.

This doesn't mean I never try and communicate. It's just that, when I do, it generally doesn't last long.

Losing doesn't bother me. If every PUG on my team runs in a completely different direction and we all get picked off one by one, it doesn't bother me.

Being yelled at because we lost? That bothers me.

Being shot at because I'm part of a premade? That really bothers me.

Lefty Lucy, on 01 December 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

I've definitely been there. There have been times that I put out a simple plan, some guy runs off and dies, and we lose the match, and said guy who didn't follow the plan wants to blame the "commander." Or the fact that even if you *do* follow a plan, sometimes the bad guys are just better or more coordinated than you. Getting blamed for failure just because you try to increase the chance to win (but of course never guarantee) does suck.

However, I've found that by trying to communicate consistently I've just found a lot of great people to play with, and it has been more successful than not. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to do it every game. At the same time, if a PUG player asks "is anyone in a group?" telling him to go suicide or meeting him with complete silence, which a lot of group players do, is not productive either.

Vlad, I'd really like to say thanks to you personally. In this conversation we've had plenty of disagreements, but it has never gotten as hostile as many MWO topics seem to get.

For the moment, I'm not too worried about finding people to play with. I have a pretty substantial friend list, and a solid merc corps that I'm very happy with. I do meet new people in PUG games on occasion, but I'd hardly call it a regular occurrence. I see both sides of this issue very frequently (since I PUG and premade equally), so I don't take a hardline stance either way. Sometimes I communicate. Sometimes I don't. It depends on my mood, and how much I'm willing to take before I stop bothering.

I'm honestly surprised that this topic has stayed so civil. I'll put a few c-bills down to the mod presence in the thread having something to do with it.

[FerretGR]

Vlad Ward, on 01 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

This doesn't mean I never try and communicate. It's just that, when I do, it generally doesn't last long.

I hear you. I think a couple of lines at the start to get the game off on the right foot are plenty, TBH. At any rate, I can hardly toggle chat when I'm in-battle, let alone type

Vlad Ward, on 01 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Being yelled at because we lost? That bothers me.

Being shot at because I'm part of a premade? That really bothers me.

Agreed, those things suck. As was said, it's not the planner's fault if the other team just plans better or what have you. I can honestly say I've never been shot because I'm in a premade in all of my hundreds of games though. ****** that you had to deal with that. Not trying to be pompous, just empathetic

[Hayashi]

Vlad Ward, on 01 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

The thing is, I don't believe that's worth it. Jerks ruin my day. I don't have any desire to put up with them. I always play in groups no matter what online game it is purely for this reason. Being in a group means I know the people I'm playing with, and if one of them turns out to be a jerk then we can just boot him. Rather than fight with these sorts of people, I'd rather just remove myself from the situations that place me with them.

If every PUG on my team runs in a completely different direction and we all get picked off one by one, it doesn't bother me. Being yelled at because we lost? That bothers me. Being shot at because I'm part of a premade? That really bothers me.

Maybe the reason why I can play as a PuG commander for so long is that I've a very high tolerance for jerks - ingame chat doesn't really bother me, disconnects and afks don't really bother me; the only exception is intentional friendly fire. But it's really a personal thing. I get where you're coming from.

Vlad Ward, on 01 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'm honestly surprised that this topic has stayed so civil. I'll put a few c-bills down to the mod presence in the thread having something to do with it.

I'm hoping it's not just because I'm here, and it's because you guys are civil people. We don't have enough people to have a presence in every thread, though frequent and accurate reporting helps a LOT.

By the way, we don't represent any kind of official line. Unless the topic is moderation specific (and aside from the posts we make prior to locking threads, these are very rare) our opinions don't represent any kind of official line, so do treat us the same as you would other forumites. Or rather, treat other forumites the same as you treat us. We make mistakes, we get annoyed, we have our pet peeves, we weigh differently on every single issue. I tend to hold 'anti-PGI' stances on issues more often than most other moderators do, but we share the common goal of trying to make the game better.

I'm not in this topic because it's a dangerous issue, I'm in here because I'm personally interested in the issue. Consequently, unless any flames are really serious, I wouldn't take direct action in topics I'm personally involved in as being involved removes the objectivity necessary for fair moderation.

[Weeble]

I agree there are a LOT of stupid puggers and it seems to be getting worse. I say that as someone who has 200+ pug matches and <12 voip drops.

There are also a LOT of good players pugging. There are only a couple of common tactics to use from either base of any map. If a premade gives the slightest clue, they will find a lot of puggers right there with them. You say "3 line", "base rush water", "E6", or "lower city", we know what to do.

You don't lose anything by typing 10 - 15 characters in chat at the start of a match. If you draw noobs or antisocial idiots for your team, they were going to rush off and die, anyway. If you even have a couple of experienced puggers you will roll the other team assuming your team is any good.

[Sevaradan]

Typically we don't because for the most part its not worth the keystrokes talking to pugs.

[PropagandaWar]

Again its BS that you guys get mad at us for not typing. You type, we have comms so we dont have too (Even though we do at times to help you out). You refuse to use comms. Hell dropship in NGNG or the various other servers if you dont want to join a fraggin house. Why the hell is this starting up again? Because of Tuesda?. Your causing us to leave not us. We want to be able to use comms now were forced to do 8 man only comms or 4. You should be happy, but nooooo your crying over lack of communication. They invented the telephone for better means of communication. Well guess what they made it illegal to text and drive because you DIE. Same thing happens in a mech. So Thpppptttttttt.

[Vermaxx]

Dagnome, on 01 December 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

If someone asks I will tell them when I am in a premade and in the occasional off game I will announce it. You want to know what the stigma is?

70% of the time the other 4 individuals on my team DONT DO anything intelligent thus I just consider them all glorified meat shields for the 4 of us to actually attempt to win the game.

Much love
-Dagnome

This will kill the game, this right here. If you can't even BOTHER to try and educate people (regardless of assumed lack of success) there is no point in hoping this game survives.

I try pub wrangling every time I'm in a group with friends. I tell them where we're going, and try to tell them who to shoot. Sometimes they follow, sometimes they don't. Sometimes WE change OUR plan to stay with the four other people. You might win with a foursome of good players, but it is a lot more likely if you can at least get some of the other four people on the same page.

Not trying at all because "everyone else is stupid, won't listen, or tells us to fk off" is a terrible attitude. There are lots of jobs in the real world where you don't get to give up because your customer base is 'probably stupid.' Sure, this isn't a job. That just means it will DEFINITELY fail if people don't help the lesser skilled, as opposed to maybe failing like a business.

There are always people on every match who want to learn. There may only be one guy out of the four randoms. Ignoring that guy means it is more likely he quits and gets replaced with another raging 12 year old who wants to rambo.

[Irreverence]

In the game of chess, is it not advantageous to sacrifice a few pawns?

Joking aside, my group is usually pretty good about greeting the rest of the team. And usually the pick-up groups have been fairly willing to cooperate.

[hammerreborn]

No time to communicate with the PUGs, too busy squirreling while shooting vlad in the back. I'll announce positions in team chat before I go squirrel mode, and tell them "I'm tagging, youre bagging". But once I attach my bushy tail and ears and go full furry, there's little to no time to communicate by text.

[LaserAngel]

Another 4 man premade announced that he was a 4 man premade. He told us to follow his very bad advice. I responded with a better defensive strategy. Everything fell apart and my had to 4 man link up with his in hiding only to get torn apart. We all died 8:2

We had two groups of 4 mechs on voice. I told him as I cursed him and the defeat screen rolled by. I was just more mad that they wanted to camp in the water on Forest Colony. A deathball of focus fire would have worked. I got over it.

Edited by LaserAngel, 01 December 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[Secundus]

I'm not expecting any group to give commands during the match, while I'm capable, most people probably don't have the wherewithal. I do feel that if a 4 man group knows whether they're going left or right, or tunnel or ridge, or whatever, that they simply state it. I've seen more threads started by groupers complaining about lone wolfs than I have groupers posting a basic plan at the start of the match. I find that to be negative feedback loop.

Edited by Secundus, 01 December 2012 - 10:03 PM.