42 replies to this topic

[Noodlesoup]

Egomane, on 02 December 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

[REDACTED] ...

oh look ... I typed [REDACTED] name and then again I didn't, because I used a small L instead if a big i to write the name. The same could be done with [REDACTED]'s name.

This is a free to play game. Creating such an account take seconds. As long as there is no way to link such accounts to their original owner, they will probably even go unharmed after those fake accounts have been banned. This will always happen in such a gaming environment. Believe it or not: It is not aimed at harming the players. That's just a side effect. It is aimed at harming the company hosting and creating the game. You just reacted, like the trolls want you to react, Noodlesoup.

"free to play" cannot and should not be an excuse for lack of planning for and preventing abuse. as it stands, all we can do is send an email, that may or may not be responded to in a reasonable amount of time (and no, i haven't gotten a response to mine yet and it was sent 6 hours ago). And yes, the ability to "spoof" names by abusing i-I-l-etc. is deplorable, BUT SHOULD BE EXPECTED AND PREVENTED when impersonating STAFF is involved. I can't tell you if they used an i, a l or a I, why? because there's no way for me to concretely identify, report,tag, or blacklist a player inside the game.

using your logic, i should just **** and accept abuse without filing a complaint and providing feedback. i reacted the only way i have available to me, providing feedback via the only CHANNEL available to MWO players.

Both the trolls and PGI is harming MWO by not taking action and preventing this and other types of abuse.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 December 2012 - 12:28 PM.
edited quote

[INAPPROPRIATE NAME 0001]

I understand that you're upset but just because you were teamkilled by guys wearing devs names once isn't really reason to demand a full refund right off. Just saiyan.

[Egomane]

Noodlesoup, on 02 December 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

using your logic, i should just **** and accept abuse without filing a complaint and providing feedback. i reacted the only way i have available to me, providing feedback via the only CHANNEL available to MWO players.

No, I never meant to imply to do nothing. Reporting is the right way to do it. Your threat of recalling your payment, is what I find disturbing.

What I do expect you to do, is to accept that we are in a stage of game development were such holes in security are to be detected, reported and closed. Your anger is aimed at the wrong target. You need to realize that you are playing right into the hands of those trolls, that impersonate important and known staff.

This is still not a full release game with 24/7 support, even though some claim that it is because it is now accepting real cash. We are still in development and on limited support ressources.

[Egomane]

Operant, on 02 December 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

...

This is totaly uncalled for! I can see where the anger and frustration from Noodlesoup comes from, I simply don't agree with the target he is aiming it at. If you are unable to see or understand the reason for his anger, you are free to tell him so in a way that is not inflammatory.

[Noodlesoup]

Egomane, on 02 December 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

No, I never meant to imply to do nothing. Reporting is the right way to do it. Your threat of recalling your payment, is what I find disturbing.

What I do expect you to do, is to accept that we are in a stage of game development were such holes in security are to be detected, reported and closed. Your anger is aimed at the wrong target. You need to realize that you are playing right into the hands of those trolls, that impersonate important and known staff.

This is still not a full release game with 24/7 support, even though some claim that it is because it is now accepting real cash. We are still in development and on limited support ressources.

as a paying customer, i currently have two avenues of being heard: sending an email to support, and threatening to withdraw financial support on a public forum.

On a side note:

As part of my "real" job, i deal with customers who do both of these on a *daily* basis to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars per potential "return". I am responsible as the support manager for an entire product line to prevent these customers from following through on their very real threat to demand refunds or sue to have fund returned by hearing their complaints and ensuring that their issues are resolved in a timely manner and to their satisfaction. This has included up to and including suspension/firing of a support engineer and/or forcing our development team to generate a software patch overnight.

It is both a valid threat and part of the "feedback" from a frustrated customer. I'm not threatening $100k of revenue for PGI so i doubt my complaint carries as much weight, but I am within my right to use the fact that I spent $$$ on this game as part of my complaint.

I do understand it's a relatively small company with limited resources, but that by no means they should not strive to meet and exceed their customer expectations and accept feedback as what it is. feedback designed to help them improve their product and understand their customer's complaints and gauge the severity of their customer's issues.

[XionCore]

We had the same incident against the same players 0130 GMT. Video follows (unfortunatly it starts right after I managed to headshot one of these f******).I know that there´s no way ATM to stop the griefing, but at least they should act fast and ban - not let them play for 5 hours. Maybe with so simple things like "You tk´ed 5 friendly. Your account is suspended for 24h while support investigates"). So, last nights gaming was ******* annoying.

[Egomane]

Noodlesoup, on 02 December 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

As part of my "real" job, i deal with customers who do both of these on a *daily* basis to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars per potential "return". I am responsible as the support manager for an entire product line to prevent these customers from following through on their very real threat to demand refunds or sue to have fund returned by hearing their complaints and ensuring that their issues are resolved in a timely manner and to their satisfaction. This has included up to and including suspension/firing of a support engineer and/or forcing our development team to generate a software patch overnight.

Now I know were your point is coming from. I still believe your perspective to be a bit off, because of the different scale. This is a small company, doing their first online only game on a tight budget. They can not yet perform on the level you are used to.

I also believe you got me wrong. I am on your side, that this needs to get fixed and that the offenders need to get punished. I only believe your anger te be aimed at the wrong target. It is your right to threaten a refund of your money, it simply disturbs me, to do it because of one incident, that the company right now, due to their tight ressources, can not fix within a few hours.

[Zac78]

Let's hope these Tk'ers don't read this because your reaction is exaclty what they want and the only thing they can "achieve" with their behavior, btw. What do you think, Noodlesoup, how long will they have fun with TK-ing? Report them and hope PGI is aware of their responsibility for their paying customers.

As others proposed before, I hope PGI implements some kind of automatizm to lock such accounts after e.g. 5 TK's or so at one day ("in a row" is to easy to avoid IMO).

Edited by Zac78, 02 December 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[Wildhound]

$220 is a lot of money to spend on a game. You knew when you spent it what state the game was in, and it would be pretty naive to think that it was going to change quickly. I have no doubt that they will solve most of the issues with the game, but it will take a long time.

18 months down the line I reckon this game will be awesome, but you seem to be under the impression that game development happens quickly. You must be new?

[DivineEvil]

If you've paid your money for what the game will become, but disgusted by the state it is now, simply forget about the game for the time being and check for it's updates on mothly basis to determine when it will meet your demands. You will not suffer any stress and PGI will not lose anything. Otherwise, play the game now and deal with it's current state. You've paid for the Founder's package by your own free will, while no promises were given about the course and pace of development. You also bought MC's on your own will, were aware of the MWO current state, and nobody forced you to.

I've purchaced Founder's Package to provide constructive feedback as a BETA tester + I've trusted PGI enough to support them in order to help the development with my money, and I've got permanent bonuses, that no regular member can ever receive anymore. 220$ are nothing to me, since I earn over 1500$ each month by working. As of now, I play MWO about 2-3 hours a week, got two other games that I don't play due to unfavorable state (KAG and End of Nations), play two other games actively (Minecraft and League of Legends) and planning to purchase another game as long as I upgrade my hardware first (Kerbal Space Program).

Let that be an example for you. Be advised, that demanding the payback will not affect the development in any positive way, even if refund is actually granted. Learn to manage your funds wisely, and value the things you've spend them on. Money worth nothing by themselves.

Edited by DivineEvil, 02 December 2012 - 03:48 AM.

[Kobura]

Support will be willing to remove and destroy your account Noodlesoup, with it never being able to be used again, and at the least refund your Founders' pack cost. I've already spoken to them once about this regarding myself during a period of intense indecision. I decided not to go with that option,

Just pull the trigger if you're serious. There's 1000000% no way the real developers would be trolling their own game. How the hell would they pay their rent chasing out paying customers with stupid 5-minute entertainment antics? Really, that anyone could think it was them is ludicrous.

As far as refunding MC purchased I don't know. Haven't bought a dime of it. I don't understand how people torch through so much MC. I still have 17000+ from my original 20k... only any at all spent on mechbays, nothing else.

Posting this in public is uncouth. It feels to me as though you're walking through Walmart on your way to Customer Service complaining loudly about your broken product to anyone who happens to be in the area that day. If you're serious, go, do your business, it was pleasant to have you as a customer while you were, here you go on your way. Sure, post about your experience, but "I'LL NEVER SHOP HERE AGAIN WHAT COMPLETE ********"... is...not...going to make many friends, of those surrounding you, or those you're recovering your money from.

[Noodlesoup]

i guess my demand of a refund may be a bit harsh, but given the number of players affected by the same game-disrupting behavior of a few, i think my complaint is justified. and yes, i know what i was buying into when i signed up for founders, my primary reason for complaining is that this behavior has been highlighted and commented on many many times already and should have been an extremely high-priority item that should have been addressed early on with some kind of in-game reporting mechanism and/or auto-tk-relief system.

and for divineEvil's benefit, $220 isn't the end of the world for me. I'm sitting in front of 3x 27" monitors powered by a GTX690 which i put together to hopefully enjoy MWO and other games in surround glory and my disposable monthly income allows me the benefit of splurging on video games and hardware without much worry (no kids to save college funds for lol). But i did pay what I consider to be a substantial amount of money for a video game so i do get to provide constructive feedback, and as part of that feedback, i'm letting PGI know that i consider the current state of the game with the rampant abuse to be distasteful enough that I consider withdrawing financial support to be the appropriate response. I understand the value of $ and in this case, I believe i represent at least some portion of the paying customer base when I state that the current state of MWO is unacceptable when real money is involved. again, most of my dissatisfaction was "pushed over the edge" with the staff-imposters and hawken spammer along with team-killing in a match today.

and in funny note, i'm also waiting for End of Nations to improve so i've stepped away from it for the time being as well. My current game of choice is planetside2, because at least i don't have to put up with rampant team killing or spambots and suiciders.

i expect nothing by my feedback by the way, but i would hope that it's read, and absorbed, and used by PGI to improve their product offering. and i don't expect to receive a refund of any sort, but i am sorely disappointed at the current state of events in terms of how in-game abuse is being handled.

[MadPanda]

You can complain all you want about teamkillers and griefers but please cut the crap about demanding a refund. You will never get a refund. I doubt you even believe yourself you can get a refund. Stop the crap. Really annoying to read "I'm sooo close to asking for a refund" like that ******* means something. I'm so close to asking 10 million loan from the bank, do you think I'll get it? So stupid.

[Noodlesoup]

Kobura, on 02 December 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

Support will be willing to remove and destroy your account Noodlesoup, with it never being able to be used again, and at the least refund your Founders' pack cost. I've already spoken to them once about this regarding myself during a period of intense indecision. I decided not to go with that option,

Just pull the trigger if you're serious. There's 1000000% no way the real developers would be trolling their own game. How the hell would they pay their rent chasing out paying customers with stupid 5-minute entertainment antics? Really, that anyone could think it was them is ludicrous.

As far as refunding MC purchased I don't know. Haven't bought a dime of it. I don't understand how people torch through so much MC. I still have 17000+ from my original 20k... only any at all spent on mechbays, nothing else.

Posting this in public is uncouth. It feels to me as though you're walking through Walmart on your way to Customer Service complaining loudly about your broken product to anyone who happens to be in the area that day. If you're serious, go, do your business, it was pleasant to have you as a customer while you were, here you go on your way. Sure, post about your experience, but "I'LL NEVER SHOP HERE AGAIN WHAT COMPLETE ********"... is...not...going to make many friends, of those surrounding you, or those you're recovering your money from.

actually, the opposite is true, companies fear and loathe you sharing your poor customer experience with others. i have many *many* real world examples where customer service was finally delivered because a customer got fed up with "the system" and made their complaint public. i'm fed up, i submitted a ticket to support 10 hours ago with nothing but the automated response. their support page is *laughable* in the content it contains. it has ZERO information on refunds or cancellations even though it claims that it does. I challenge you to look yourself. If PGI is willing to accept hundreds of my dollars, they need to be willing to listen to my $220 worth of complaints. I've given them the benefit of the doubt until today, when i had a disgusting in-game experience with what I believed at the time was a staffmember of PGI (and now strongly suspect it was not due to the widespread "spotting" of the group of abusers).

Long story short, I once stood in the middle of a best buy berating the general manager for their blatant lies for over an hour as they claimed that I never had my laptop serviced there according to their computers (i had rock-solid proof) and that i was ineligible to have my laptop replaced under their PSP lemon clause. What did he do? he had my laptop replaced, why? because I was in my right as a customer to voice my complaint to the responsible party. The same applies here, I'm a customer of MWO who has had an appalling in-game experience, regardless if "Paul Inouye" was being impersonated in game, i have no way of verifying as a MWO player today. All I know is someone posing as him and his compatriots teamkilled me and made some unusual and disheartening statements in-game.

Finally, i didn't post anything even close to "i'll never shop here again what complete etc.". i posted my dissatisfaction and disgust with the current state of MWO and the apparent development priorities. this has been discussed to death anyways so i won't hash it out again, let it be said that I feel my posting and complaint are legitimate forms of feedback, although they might be construed as extreme or "uncouth" by some.

For the lacking support articles see:

http://mwomercs.com/support/kb

[Ricama]

Wildhound, on 02 December 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

$220 is a lot of money to spend on a game. You knew when you spent it what state the game was in, and it would be pretty naive to think that it was going to change quickly. I have no doubt that they will solve most of the issues with the game, but it will take a long time.

18 months down the line I reckon this game will be awesome, but you seem to be under the impression that game development happens quickly. You must be new?

Actually he's expressing his frustration that this game has not already implemented at least some of the anti-griefing measures that similar games have recognized long ago as being absolutely necessary after asking for permanent spending. This game is now officially a product and needs to address an important customer service issue very quickly. there is no auto temp ban feature, there is no in game reporting, there is only sending an e-mail outside the game, you have to hope you get your I's and l's right, try to remember the exact time and do your own screenshots and then wait patiently for maybe something to happen eventually. There is no indication any of these reports have lead to bans (and providing numbers of temp and permanent bans should be easy and quick). While I have a thicker skin than the OP, I can understand where he's coming from. He is not asking for a finished game, he's asking (okay demanding) that PGI maintains a "playable" environment for a game they are collecting money on.

[Noodlesoup]

MadPanda, on 02 December 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

You can complain all you want about teamkillers and griefers but please cut the crap about demanding a refund. You will never get a refund. I doubt you even believe yourself you can get a refund. Stop the crap. Really annoying to read "I'm sooo close to asking for a refund" like that ******* means something. I'm so close to asking 10 million loan from the bank, do you think I'll get it? So stupid.

I just spent $100 of that $220 38days ago. by California state law I am entitled to a refund within 30 days when no refund policy is stated or in place (which there isn't that i can find, if you can find it, please let me know, i looked here: http://mwomercs.com/...ort/kb/category).

Now i understand the company is located in Canada, and that California state law is possibly as effective as a wet beaver fart for getting a refund from them, but i wish people would stop assuming that requesting a refund isn't a legitimate customer complaint or method for providing feedback. Money talks more than forum posts. And unless you loaned 10 million to the bank, your analogy holds no water. so you're welcome to keep your "stupid" to yourself.

Ricama, on 02 December 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

Actually he's expressing his frustration that this game has not already implemented at least some of the anti-griefing measures that similar games have recognized long ago as being absolutely necessary after asking for permanent spending. This game is now officially a product and needs to address an important customer service issue very quickly. there is no auto temp ban feature, there is no in game reporting, there is only sending an e-mail outside the game, you have to hope you get your I's and l's right, try to remember the exact time and do your own screenshots and then wait patiently for maybe something to happen eventually. There is no indication any of these reports have lead to bans (and providing numbers of temp and permanent bans should be easy and quick). While I have a thicker skin than the OP, I can understand where he's coming from. He is not asking for a finished game, he's asking (okay demanding) that PGI maintains a "playable" environment for a game they are collecting money on.

Ricama gets it! Thank you for understanding the root of my complaint.

[DivineEvil]

Whether PGI capable to hold playable environment is basically their problem. They're decided to manage a long-term project, and modern game-design is nowhere as easy as it was 10 years before. That's why now developers have to sell their project before it is finished, and that is why it takes so much time to actually make a solid step forward. Some developers are producing Flash games over a month with 99% percent of valuable content purchasable with real money, thus making quick bucks on outright clueless people and stopping to support these project after another month. Compared to these, PGI looks like a knight on a white horse.

But a regular product user usually has not a single clue about that, they still keep whining and making threads about the same problems on a daily basis. For me it is more frustrating, than in-game problems, as I spend way more time arguing with immature mobs wishing for a miracle, than providing a valuable feedback. As for people publishing their refund proposals and threatening, they're completely egoistic and not concerned about anyone, but themselves and their pathetic dependance on quick results, as it is illustrated by OP and his first post in this thread. Anything following is just a mere try to justify it for a mob.

I'm planning to participate in a game development project around the early 2013. After counting and understanding the expenses required for an Alpha version production, which is a required basis for external sponsoring, your concerns about ~200$ makes me laugh at best.

Edited by DivineEvil, 02 December 2012 - 05:15 AM.

[Noodlesoup]

DivineEvil, on 02 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

Whether PGI capable to hold playable environment is basically their problem. They're decided to manage a long-term project, and modern game-design is nowhere as easy as it was 10 years before. That's why now developers have to sell their project before it is finished, and that is why it takes so much time to actually make a solid step forward. Some developers are producing Flash games over a month with 99% percent of valuable content purchasable with real money, thus making quick bucks on outright clueless people and stopping to support these project after another month. Compared to these, PGI looks like a knight on a white horse.

But a regular product user usually has not a single clue about that, they still keep whining and making threads about the same problems on a daily basis. For me it is more frustrating, than in-game problems, as I spend way more time arguing with immature mobs wishing for a miracle, than providing a valuable feedback. As for people publishing their refund proposals and threatening, they're completely egoistic and not concerned about anyone, but themselves and their pathetic dependance on quick results, as it is illustrated by OP and his first post in this thread. Anything following is just a mere try to justify it for a mob.

I'm planning to participate in a game development project around the early 2013. After counting and understanding the expenses required for an Alpha version production, which is a required basis for external sponsoring, your concerns about ~200$ makes me laugh at best.

i'm glad you find humor in the situation. i feel as if i am providing valuable feedback as what i experienced in the game today was enough to cause a strong supporter both financially and figuratively of the game to consider withdrawing financial support. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way. It's not my concern as to the specific challenges faced by the development team besides providing feedback on where I feel the product is lacking. They produce a product, and as the customer, i contributed $$$ to receive said product.

Your attitude regarding how trivial $200 may be in the grand scheme of things shows your ignorance and arrogance with regards to how a business should treat it's customers. My $200 alone may be trivial with regards to a large software development budget (and i work with software as well, i'm familiar with costs). but my $200 may be following by many more customers who find the same experience appalling.

I hope that your game development project meets success, and that you learn temperance and humility when dealing with your customers as the complaints of one, usually mirror the complaints of many. and i can guarantee you that none of your future potential customers will appreciate you laughing at the relative insignificance of their individual $ when they have an issue with your product.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noodlesoup, on 02 December 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

as a paying customer, i currently have two avenues of being heard: sending an email to support, and threatening to withdraw financial support on a public forum.

My question - Did you try the first option before the second? Looks to me like you went for both at about the same time. I saw elsewhere you sent the support message and were complaining you hadn't received an answer within 6 hours. Support doesn't work 24/7. Sometimes it takes a while to get an answer. The fact you didn't really provide them with any information to locate the users (since you wrote the dev's names and not the offending player's) doesn't help matters either.

I understand your frustration, but at the moment you look more like a drama queen. I agree that PGI should have done something to prevent the spoofing of their staff's handles - but at the same time you are in a beta. These types of things are expected as every beta I've ever been in has had griefers.

I doubt you will get a refund. If you decide to stay is on you. Some would even say you are silly for putting so much money in at this stage in the game - but to each their own. I don't care one way or the other that you did it. I simply don't think it makes you any more entitled than anybody else dealing with this problem.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 02 December 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[Volume]

I do understand that you aren't paying to be TK'd, but what do you suggest be done about it exactly? Just to put out an idea that I want to never see, Heroes of Newerth tried to protect paying customers from stuff like this by having a separate matchmaking queue available exclusively to people who pumped money into the game. It worked out horribly for them, please don't try it here.


I'm not entirely sure what to say other than it's too bad that you experience such things, and you probably aren't getting a refund, and making a post about it here will probably slim your chances, but thank you for informing the community about this event.