65 replies to this topic

[Gbanger]

Xendojo, on 02 December 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

I like your #2 suggestion, it would make complete sense that firing a weapon in the air(not missiles though) would destabilize your mech. Seeing as your gyro has nothing but JJ to counter-balance the force generated when you fire. And those are limited.

I agree in part. This is meant to be a sim game and the physics involved in launching that many missiles on a column of superheated air seems a bit of a stretch. lasers sure, projectile weapons???. Possibly the more jj's you have the more weapons you can fire accurately?

not saying LRM's OP just talking about the sim aspect.

I think the min range should be increase to 200 personally.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Hang on....u use 2 AC20s and yr calling foul! (grabs the popcorn). This I gotta see.

[Elkarlo]

I am one of these LRM carrier Jumpers.
Nice to meet you.
And the LRM 20 Jumper was not good btw.

Best tactic is: Getting a lock of you by Teammates, just jump a little that your lrm launchers go over the Obstacle firs and then let you drop instantly...

Because everytime i jump so high that i can fire 2 salvos and lock you.. like you discribed..
i always have other Problems... like beeing used as a *****.

And when you talk about imba Fitting, get out of your AC/20 Boat with what you can onehit a mech.. because sneaking from behind and then one hit is soooo uberskill...

So don't complain please... i had several times such AC/20 Boats at 25 meters.. and then it was a fight of Skill and the lrm boat in big disadvantage... but for some reasons only few AC/20 Boats make it fast and easy to kill me, most often i won.. and i don't think that it was luck... i watched (when Death) some AC/20 Pilots... and how they shoot... lets say:



1:20 Minute most of them shoot this way... and wonder why they don't hit and blame lock on Weapons... i killed several Jenners, Centurions, Hunchbacks etc with my 2 medium Lasers. Because i know how to hit into a torso side and the Ammo. But this requieres precise shooting.

So please don't blame the LRM boats. Mostly they get only 200-300 Damage and only the very good ones will do lot of damage, but then on the otherside the good ones tend to live long so good pilots can dominate, brawlers have a shorter live expectation.

Edit.:
And yes i had it: a HBK-4p Attacks me at 100 meters, shoots nearl anything but my Mech, overheated, i toog out his right torso, he started to run went on 170 meters i started my missles and they hit him when he was just getting around the corner at 185 meters and then he blows up.
Then it comes: "DAMM Streak Cats and LRM they are imba."

I was damaged he was damaged when the brawl began, BUT when 2 Meds in a Cat can outgun 9 Meds in a Hunchback, because the Pilot can't aim, and i kill his Torso out, then it has nothing to do with Damm Lockon weapons. But Netcode or Aiming ( we both had ping around 130-160).

Edited by Elkarlo, 03 December 2012 - 03:06 AM.

[steelblueskies]

the tt ruleset referred to here often as "solaris rules" upon which they based their mechanics here.
http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Duel_Rules

[color=#000000]-A jump can last up to four turns and it is possible to change the course or to fire during a [/color][color=#000000]jump[/color]

[color=#000000]continuing on[/color]

[color=#959595]1: make using jumpjets create shaking of the cockpit or render lock impossible while using them[/color]
[color=#959595]-did you pilot a raven with jumpets lately? maybe they finally fixed the wtflol shuddering, but either way it was bad. then again they are looking to reduce the "earthquake simulator" shakes from hits and the like as it stands. they hit performance and playability, and are about on par with loss of control at even ac/2 levels.[/color]

[color=#959595]2: using a weapon in fly mode (jumpjets) creates major instability on the mech (force from firing a weapon makes a force that intefers with the force from the jumpjets making a discrete change in resultant force that is imposible to compansate and creates the instability/shaking) that would cause almost 100% of braking the lock[/color]

[color=#959595]-sorry, no. still looking forward to arm mount heavy energy/ballistic setups with jets. highlander for example.ff[/color][color=#959595]in a first person setup it's going to be battle of skill and chance as it is getting flying shots landed(more due to the need to freelook to aim arm mounts down far enough to get multiple shots off, but also due to latency and other issues). if you restrict it to missiles only arbitrarily you create further imbalance, not balance. also you seem not to have read up on ecm coming, ostensibly tomorrow.[/color]


[color=#959595]3: reduce the maximum reverse speed on mechs[/color]
[color=#959595]-no. just no. flat no. learn to play. we already have artificial restrictions on engine size and forward speed, among other things. and they failed to beat cryengine into submission to enable canon mechs with rear mounted weapons. if you close and fail to kill and fail to keep in range of, your target, you need to rethink your tactics from the mechlab on up.[/color]

[color=#959595]4: reduce the speed of the rockets (making them easier to dodge). [/color]
[color=#959595]-herp derp. make the slowest projectile slower still because i refuse to employ thought in my play session. tht's what this is starting to read as, you understand that right? you can already get off direct fire shotsmultiple times before an lrm launch will lock and cover the 500 meter distance. if you are rolling throttle forward, taking a shot and backing and failing to evade that launch you are moving slower than a stock atlas. again, see rethinking strategy from the mechlab on up. maybe consider that only loading short range weapons on a slow mover with no jump ability is a *really* bad idea unless you have a coordinated group and you are filling a highly specific support role, which is not going to be "charge the longest range enemy".[/color]


[color=#959595]5: increase the time for the lock[/color]

[color=#959595]-again read up on the ecm module.[/color]

[color=#959595]6: reduce the time for braking the lock[/color]

-still begging for advantage to cover poor decisions? here's a thought in the interest of fairness. lets add shot jitter to energy and ballistic mounts, so every pot shot will go slightly off of cursor, even when standing still. to reclaim that on crosshair accuracy you need to get some kind of targeting lock. now we can talk on even footing. no? ok then..

[color=#959595]7: make the missiles less smart, when the lock is broken, they continue the last know path or self destruct [/color]

[color=#959595]-welcome to the skill based half of lrm use. dumb-fire. no lock needed to plant them at reticule, and as an added bonus, n missile-incoming warning to targets that may walk into it. also, again, read about ecm.[/color]

[color=#959595]8. increase the minimum range of LRMs to 500m, and create MRM that would go with optimum range of 180-500 m but with different stats. Creating that would force support cats to balance the range creating better balance for the rest of us, while keeping the stats/usefulness of support weapons such as LONG RANGE weapons.[/color]

[color=#959595]-looks at canon stock layout for lrm support cat. looks at mrm being actual tech not due to arrive for 20 years game time.[/color][color=#959595]ponders how your fragile advantage seeking bubble bursts when you grasp that they can already load srm launchers x4 with 2 lrm 15 and do this without the min range problem, while increasing their damage output in the overlap range between 180 and 270 meters(which is where both types of missiles can deal damage). imagines your head asploding when you look 30 years game time into the future and see mlm's which are launch systems that can launch short, long and or medium range missiles interchangeably from the same missile launcher tubes.[/color]

[color=#959595]or maybe the clam swarm lrms, or the helm core reintroduced is swarm lrms, which do wide area aoe around each missile.[/color]

[machinech]

Solutions available NOW for OP's problem....

1) Realize that not every mech and every loadout is viable in ALL situations.

2) Attempt through teamwork and tactics to maximize your mech's advantages while minimizing the enemies ability to do the same.

3) See 1 and 2, application of both should alleviate all issues of fustration.

[LtPoncho]

At least with a GaussCat you have effective range at all ranges; dual AC/20's on a slow Cat is 'quite challenging'.

[Valaska]

You should try using terrain more and make risk vs reward, he'll have to get closer up.

[Arcaist]

LRM´s are fine right now. No further need of rebalancing.

Use AMS.
Stay under cover.
Hit and run.

[Pando]

Arcaist, on 03 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

LRM´s are fine right now. No further need of rebalancing.

Use AMS.
Stay under cover.
Hit and run.

Hey,

Don't you notice the strange phenomena occurring IE; when something works correctly - NERF IT.

[AlexWildeagle]

Mordin Ashe, on 02 December 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

So ... you got outplayed, suck at zigzaging and that somehow makes catapults OP ... Hm. Let me think. Oh yes. LEARN TO PLAY!

Sorry kids. I just couldn't resist.

Zigzagging? I think you need to learn how to play. Ziging works for direct fire but does zero against missile.

And to OP. Welcome to Missile Warrior Online. Missiles are the easiest to use so they get abused.

Arcaist, on 03 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

LRM´s are fine right now. No further need of rebalancing.

Use AMS.
Stay under cover.
Hit and run.

AMS is a joke, missiles fly through cover more times then not and hit and run works marginally. H&R works OK if you have places for really deep cover and the LRM boat is alone.

[LynxFury]

I think they are about right at present.

They do lots of damage but mostly spread out.

They can be avoided by fast lights who run at 90 degree angles.

The Artemis addition makes them noticeably more lethal, especially against fast lights.

They work well for suppression, yet a pair of AMS equipped enemies can still cross the open areas and significantly reduce their damage from LRMs.

They augment the team work because TAG/NARC adds effect, Team mates who are maintaining target lock and providing feedback about enemy mechs in the open or behind cover. LRM boating takes significant risk from being overrun by light wolk packs.

[MaxllmuS]

Have AWS-T with lrm20*2 and 2000 rockets. With artemis and new target probe system win 9\10 games.
I never repair or rearm this mech)) I have about 80% HP and 75% ammo this ok to deal about 700-1000 dmg and kill\asssist 5-7 mech. Louse only if get rushed or have very bad team.
Now lrm imba not because its power,its imba because cowardly players who try fight at long range and dont want to go rush, or rambo who go fast and alone! by open land with no cover.
Good stack of mech all with AMS if stay gruped,who use cover and move fast will always beat havy lrm build mech.

[ZliDiabetichar]

just for a test i got a hunchy, put 2 lrm 20, xl engine (best) and 1.5k lrm ammo, and a tag laser (on my forhead ). LoL.
I run 80 kph mark my targets and user cover to avoid dmg. usualy do around 1k dmg per match.

The build is LOL when compared to a specialist build as dual ac20. But i guess when PGI turns off the 75% free rearm, the only guys who are gonna use LRMs are those who pay with real money for them.
And there is a perfectly sound explanation for it. They want to enjoy the game, but don't have the time to practice, but have Z money.

And don't make me laugh, compared to a dual ac20 build, the speed, use of cover, aiming, LRM plays like super easy mode. If i miss as a brawler i lose 20 dmg (per ac20) and i need to survive to reload and shoot again. Where i shoot and if i hit, will define if i will have a chance to shoot again. How i move will define how long i survive. LRM play is a JOKE!

And thats after testing it with a not good lrm mech (hunchy with 2 lrm 20). Now, i would like to say thanks to everyone who tried to be constructive and tried to point out possible hints on how i (and the rest of the brawlers) should be playing.
As for the rest of you that are defending the LRM play builds as they are now, see how arty is managed in a game similar to this (World of Tanks). As someone pointed out 4x lrm 15 = 100+ dmg every 3 sec in mid air, while I am slow as snail and do 40 if i hit. And not to mention ammo, 180 per ton (9 shots for lrm 20, 12 shots for lrm 15) while i get 7!.

And you call my build cheesy? Am outrunned by lights, mediums and other heavies.
The only one that has similar speed to me are atlases.
Am out ranged by almost every weapon in the game. I can't fly, and i have the least ammo per ton.
My projectile speed is low, so i need to compensate for the lag and time need for my projectile to hit the target (enemy speed and distance of the enemiy).
My projectiles are heavy so i need to compensate for the gravity force that is affecting my projectile (distance again).
My weapons are on my side torsos, so my angle of shooting is reduced.
The only thing i have is some armor, focused dmg, my brain and the enemy brain.
And still i have 1.65 k/d ratio in pure pugs play including the farm for the first mech and experimenting with the builds.

And with all that, you call my build cheesy? 1 click do double+ dmg from 2-4 of my range, with impossible angles in mid air? Don't force me to be rude.

And if i get behind ur back, you should be in awe because your team let me do it and you deserve to be destroyed if a 53 kph mech got behind ur back from across the whole map.

And your reason is, its supposed to be good dmg, because some people don't hit often. Guess who's fault is that.
Just wait for people to learn who to properly use LRMs. With all that 80+ kph, 70+ dmg per click, jumpjets and maybe few tags. Maybe then will we look on this things from the same angle. For now, i fear its to early.

Edited by ZliDiabetichar, 03 December 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[ZliDiabetichar]

PS. Notice that am not asking for a ac20 buff, i think its powerful enough even with all the limitations.

[Stormgut]

Okay, so it sounds like you're not as unreasonable as your original post comes across. That being said, the problem isn't with LRMs, man. Seriously, LRMs are fine. Your build has huge glaring weaknesses that relegate it to being the niche build it ought to be. If only Gauss K2s and SSRM Cats had as many appropriate drawbacks, but I digress.

I have zero problems with LRMs in any of my builds, and one of them is a default engine AS7-D. I have only one build with any LRMs of my own (which is a Centurion with a single launcher) so I'm not biased on the side of "my build is fine, yours needs to be nerfed" kind of stuff. I'm one of those rare players who actually intentionally mixes long and short range weaponry to be versatile and able to adapt to the dynamics of the situation, instead of trying to be lord and master of some specific range and cover situation but useless outside that situation.

I pugged it up this past weekend playing a mix of my Hunchbacks, Centurions, and my one Atlas, and came out with a K/D of about 2.0. LRMs were only ever a problem when I foolishly let myself get lured into chasing an opponent into open ground. I will say one thing: it was surprising how many players will still charge across open ground in something slow when there are clearly LRMs on the field. That's why you did so well with an LRM boat of your own: plenty of players still don't understand the importance of staying in cover even while brawling. LRMs only work for a brainless pilot if he's up against a brainless enemy, otherwise you do have to work to maintain that ideal distance and firing angle.

If you brought a Catapult with two AC/20s to the tabletop game in any map other than a dense urban environment, you'd be laughed off the battlefield. It's a joke of a build, so specialized to the point that proper play by the enemy team can make it a complete non-factor. If you don't like that your build has such a glaring weakness to LRM fire, change your build. The fact that a Catapult can even mount two AC/20s in the first place is a fault of the game, not a feature -- it's laughably distant from the intent of the platform.

Here's another little factoid: I was against the bump from 1.7 to 1.8 damage because I felt that LRMs were fine after the nerf. But all the punks who like to park on a hilltop and click on red cursors at 800+ m raised hell about it. Frankly, I'm glad it only got an extra 0.1, and I'd be fine with it going back to 1.7, but either way LRMs are in just about the perfect place right now. I think you'd be more inclined to agree if you piloted something vaguely resembling a balanced build.

edit: Accidentally wrote 800+ km instead of m... now that would be quite some range!

Edited by Stormgut, 03 December 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[XvDraxvX]

I was going to go line by line and dispute Zil but i dont see a point.

Every mech has a plus and a minus. AC20 Cat has the plus of being able to deliver 40 dmg to a specific area. Pretty deadly if you can hit someone in the head or a limb etc. As you said its a specialist.

The LRM 20 Cat's and other mechs are also specialist. We provide Area denial and also splash damage across the enemy.

The draw back for the AC 20 Cat is very simple its the lack of speed and ammo. You can compare your 7 shots to my 9 all you want my ammo also costs a lot more then yours.

The draw back for the LRM Cat is the lack of fighting at short ranges, most LRM 20 Cats carry a pair of medium lasers for self defense.

Your AC20's still work within 180m and can still do dmg outside your maximum its just slightly less damage.

Then you call LRM Cat pilots a joke and easy mode.

As the LRM Cat Pilot when i drop as a full 8 man, 4 man, etc i tend to take on the role of leader. I direct targets, i call out focus fire's, troop movements and load out etc. If you have a LRM Cat sitting on a hill and not talking then they are the bad ones not the group as a whole. If your able to spot and be the eyes for your team you should be or your doing it wrong.

As for this "LRM's are support weapons!" I would have to argue. Direct Fire Support, is still fire support. So by that logic Guass rifles should do less damage and so should any other far reaching ballistic.... or laser.

Missiles are still missiles, and in MWO just like TT they should hurt and they should kill, thats the point of a weapon system.

Also i made this argument as well, how can a weapon be a support weapon when you want it to do very little damage? That hardly lends itself to useful.

LRM's are not "easy mode" like some people say, I mean heck if you can hover a reticle over a box while dodging light mechs, Gauss rounds, and enemy LRM's, then you can do the same with a Gauss rifle or AC round.

Its all reletive, if you want to brawl or be upclose then do so but keep in mind that if your only carrying a shot gun into battle dont be mad when a sniper rips your head off at 1000m meters, its like bring a knife to a gun fight.

The answer to this is to go faster which means you may have to sacrifice a AC 20 for a bigger engine. this way you can run in do your damage and run out.... I do this frequently on my Cataphract 2D which has a LBX-10, 2 Streak 2's, 2 Med Pulse, and 1 Large Laser, of course i also mount a AMS, and a XL360.

SO again LRM's are fine, they are not hitting at 90 degree's anymore. Once they fix the netcode i bet the Missile's getting around cover will also go away. I have said in other threads that the netcode and hit locations are problems. Weapon hits are server side, so just because you feel like you got behind that building before the missiles hit you, doesnt mean the server recorded it that way, so the missile's are not going through the buildings per say they already hit you, your client is just catching up.

Ammo cost could go down a bit but i wont hold my breath for that.

I hope this helps.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Lrm not a problem if you use terrain and ams and work with your team. They are however annoying with seemingly every noob using them and laying back being useless to their team on the front line as half the time they are not even hitting anything. The other 25% their shooting targets that are not in the primary engagement....will be nice when they all learn how to use their lrms to support their team more directly. And then for the final 25% are actually useful to the winning effort.

[ZliDiabetichar]

i totally agree that my build is very specialized, but i think it's not bad when considering how much terrain and cover there is.
And if i have a good team, i usually get 2-3 kills per match and 2-3 assists (terrain and covers works for me so i try to go on mechs at least 1 on 1).
The moment i get out of cover is when the countdown of 10-15 sec starts and i get destroyed (for example caustic map, where is little to no cover depending on your position).
The reason why am playing this build is because its fun (using cover, trying to lure mechs, brawl, all the disadvantages and the big boom after that makes it fun for me + i can kill an atlas solo head on xD).

But am talking about the potential of lrm fire. Very mobile LRM mechs can get in a position where you cannot hide from their fire, and while you are brawling with another mech, hiding behind a building or cliff, a smart lrm mech will change position and get an angle from where it hits from 300 m where you cant shoot or hide. And he needs just 1 or 2 salvos to finish the job or reduce ur fighting ability to that level that its cheaper just to find a hole and power down. And usually that is not an option.

What am saying is, they should need more time to do that. If i risk going in the open for 5-10 sec, i should receive dmg, not be disabled or dead. If am in the open for 30-45 sec i should receive some good dmg. If am in the open for 45+ i should be dead. Currently, am dead in 15-20 sec or so badly dmged that i want to ragequit. (and thats wihtout JJ LRM sniping).

[ZliDiabetichar]

if pgi, reduces ac20 weight or gives more ammo per tone, i would gladly buy a better engine, but imo that would make this build more powerful, and thats not the point. The other alternative is to reduce the number of slots of the ac20, but that would make possible to mount an xl engine that would make it even more powerful (but more fragile).

And as for the gauss rifle, he still needs to hit, especially from that range, does less dmg then ac20 and most of them burn their ammo quickly and usually get hammered by lrm fire (if they snipe alone from distance).

note: ac20 has 270m max dmg range

note2: i would change gauss to weight 1-2 t more because of the compensation for less heat it generates, more ammo per ton,less critical slots required and more range then ac20.

Edited by ZliDiabetichar, 03 December 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[Stormgut]

If an LRM mech is sweeping around the side of you while you brawl with his teammate and he lights you up, you just got outplayed. If you ran a balanced build you'd be much more able to pull the guy you're brawling with to a location that keeps you covered from LRM fire, and even then it's a case of two enemy team members attacking you at the same time.

Nobody is going to shed a tear for your LRM problems in that build, man. Either deal with it or switch to a different build. LRMs are fine.