101 replies to this topic

[Redshift2k5]

Weatherman, on 17 May 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I think this should be a very real concern. I have seen games seriously unbalanced because the developers relied too much on their idea of fun and fluff and didn't anticipate the fact that a lot of gamers are min-maxers. Warhammer 40k is a great example of this, but Battletech has always had this problem.

While I expect the hardpoint system to help curb some of this, I do think the developers should take a long hard look at the designs that will likely be fielded by players instead of what would be fluffy or fun in their opinion.

Seeing the kind of commitment the developers have to this game, I don't have many worries when it comes to this as I believe they are going to take that style of gaming into account as they build MWO.

I'm sure the Devs are doing everything they can to break the system, and I'm sure they've missed some stuff too. Closed beta soon, then they'll have lots of new people trying new and different things, pushing the envelope in new ways. That's what betas are for!

[Sleeping Bear]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

After watching the fantastic play test vids provided by PGI through IGN and others, i noticed that many of the mechs in game were equipped with a "well rounded" varitey of weapons. But have the Dev's tested Max damage load outs on Mechs in the game. Examples mechs with double AC20's and a ppc or 3 ppc's like on the awesome, or a AC10, Med lazer, strk 6? on a raven?

While i appluad the weapons make up on these mechs in the video; i just do not feel this is a good representation of how players will set up their mechs in acutal game play.

Depending on game mechanics and allowable mech configs, i truly feel players are going to "maximize" and specialize mechs regardless of developers "intended" mech weapon configurations. I anticape heavys and assualts as max damage brawlers, or max damage range configs will be the pre domiant configurations.

As stated in the Mechlab presentation, mech loadouts will follow a variant setting. The variants have set hardpoints of what can be loaded and how many. The presentation stated that in a player configuration, you can only switch a like weapon type for a like weapon hardpoint. Thus you couldn't switch all the weapon loadout on a primary Catapult for lets say, 4 ER Large Lasers.

I'm hoping that this translates as players having to have a semblance of balanced weapon configuration setups on their machines.

[Redshift2k5]

Sleeping Bear, on 17 May 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

As stated in the Mechlab presentation, mech loadouts will follow a variant setting. The variants have set hardpoints of what can be loaded and how many. The presentation stated that in a player configuration, you can only switch a like weapon type for a like weapon hardpoint. Thus you couldn't switch all the weapon loadout on a primary Catapult for lets say, 4 ER Large Lasers.

I'm hoping that this translates as players having to have a semblance of balanced weapon configuration setups on their machines.

Using the K2 Catapult (default PPCs instead of LRMs) You probably can fit 4 ER large lasers on a catapult (or at least 4 large lasers). you can certainly load two large lasers on the arms while still having 4 medium lasers in the side torsos, so 4 large isn't that much of a stretch. Heat will be a problem though

Edited by Redshift2k5, 17 May 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Sleepy Head]

Boating means you take a mech with mass amounts of one particular hard point (per se they awesome from MW4 with it's numerous energy weapon hardpoints) and loading up those hardpoints with one weapon or weapon class (like loading that awesome with four ERPPCs)?

Edited by Sleepy Head, 17 May 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Prosperity Park, on 11 May 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

The only "problem" with boats are when they "exploit" gameplay features, such as the ability to "Pop-Tart-Snipe" somone with ER Large Lasers in MW4:M because you had perfect targeting information from behind hills and instaneous munition impact with no need to adjust for lead or distance.

This is actually incorrect. The biggest problem with boats is when people cry rivers about them, causing massive flooding in small villages and costing the lives of many innocents that drown each year in the tears of people who don't understand good 'mech design.

Sleepy Head, on 17 May 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Boating means you take a mech with mass amounts of one particular hard point (per se they awesome from MW4 with it's numerous energy weapon hardpoints) and loading up those hardpoints with one weapon or weapon class (like loading that awesome with four ERPPCs)?

In theory, yes. In practice, it typically refers to anyone with an effective weapons load out and is bitterly said by people who want you to take horrible mismatched weapons that closer resemble the weapons you'd see in stock table top games, ignoring the large number of boats you can find there also.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 May 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Arikiel]

This reminds me of a really broken design for tabletop that I want to try out in MW:O if it's possible.

[GrimFist]

As stated I beleive they've adjusted harpoints to actual weapon types. Stripping an awesome down and packing 12 medium lasers and lots of heat sinks is not going to happen.

I kinda wish you would, I'd kill it at range and.

I am reserving all judement until I can boat or unboat to the limits.

I want 24 machine guns on the BuzzZaw MK-4.

[Deathz Jester]

Garth Erlam, on 17 May 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Thomas had a Jenner with six flamers, it was hilarious.

Someone make an Atlas full of flamers...., machine guns.

[JP Josh]

guys also remember lazers now deal a constant amount of damadge over time meaning its not a instant damadge you must keep the lazer on target for a certain amount of time to do Any noticble damadge other wise your lazer boat is a great big metal shield

[Lydia]

Yeah, I have to say ... in watching the IGN guys play the game, I felt like they were worse than the AI in MW4. I'm pretty sure Mechwarrior vets are gonna have a field day on newbies

Oh wait ...

Longbow with 8 sets of Clan LRM 20s
Owens with 4 Flamers
Nova Cat with 5 ERPPCs
Dashi with 8 ER Large Lasers
Behemoth with 1 Railgun


Maybe not

[Arbhall Sommers]

Arikiel, on 17 May 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

This reminds me of a really broken design for tabletop that I want to try out in MW:O if it's possible.

Yeah I have a home brew from the TT that would be just as awesome in MWO if the mechanics are similar enough.
75 ton clan tech
80kph max speed
80% max armor with a sturdy rear (35% of frontal value)
21(42) heatsinks. Can run and fire 10 med lasers at once!!
12 Med Pulse lasers. Set to fire volleys of ten lazers, 2 for back up. Can reduce volume of fire to compensate for engine hits, but still deal massive damage, consistently.
Xl Engine to keep the weight down.
Love this monster. It hits frequently, and chews off layers of armor every volley. Scoring crits on the second pass, leaving a smoking ruin by the 3rd in nearly every match.
My personal best was what my brother called the "star wave". Hed march a full star against me until either i was destroyed or he was and then a another wave. Like MW2, but tabletop. I managed to take down 7 mechs before i fell ( some were leg kills, engine kills, pilot KOs or just a savaging with a wall of laser fire.)
His best was 12 mechs, hes a much better TT player than me, and he is supremely lucky.

[Sassori]

The Awesome has two PPC's in it's side torso's and only one in the arms. That means the only thing with speed aiming is a single ppc. The torso's /are/ harder to aim with unless someone stands in your face. This means that the hard points will have a /massive/ impact on boating as it becomes not just how many energy hard points (For example) but also a matter of how many are in the arms and how easy it will be to aim them.

This creates variety and versatility. Awesome's with so much torso weaponry are better at shooting at a distance than tracking in close. A Cicada or a Jenner with arm mounted weapons probably has a lot more pinpoint accuracy.

The only thing they need to change imho, is to slow down the arm tracking and reduce ammo/armor to tabletop amounts.

[FrostPaw]

I generaly dislike taking a random set of weapons and sneezing them onto a mech, so I actually like boating. I like knowing when an enemy is at a certain range at minimum half my weapons are in range instead of just one or two. I like knowing I can deliver a substantial ammount of firepower on an enemy at once because maybe I won't get a second shot if I cycle between weapon groups and ranges before terrain gets in the way.

I would consider it inteligent design to make your combat ability as effective and simple as possible because that frees up me, the pilot, to concentrate on the engagement rather than worrying about which weapons are in range and which are not and having to sort through them for each shot that isn't point blank.

It also reduces exposure time, for most weapons you have to expose your mech to fire them, if you have 4 different ranges on your guns but only your longest range weapon is effective that means you're exposing your mech to fire one gun. Where as if you fire 3-4 guns you deliver a more significant punch so the risk is worth it.

I see people complaining about legging and boating as purists that think it's unfair because players want to build and strategize their mechs in ways they don't agree with. No rules are being broken, nobodies cheating what is happening is legging and boating is effective and rather than accept it people choose to argue the freedom to build your mech and fight how you want is in some way wrong if you want to do that in a way that isn't their way.

[Redshift2k5]

FrostPaw, on 18 May 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

I generaly dislike taking a random set of weapons and sneezing them onto a mech, so I actually like boating. I like knowing when an enemy is at a certain range at minimum half my weapons are in range instead of just one or two. I like knowing I can deliver a substantial ammount of firepower on an enemy at once because maybe I won't get a second shot if I cycle between weapon groups and ranges before terrain gets in the way.

I would consider it inteligent design to make your combat ability as effective and simple as possible because that frees up me, the pilot, to concentrate on the engagement rather than worrying about which weapons are in range and which are not and having to sort through them for each shot that isn't point blank.

It also reduces exposure time, for most weapons you have to expose your mech to fire them, if you have 4 different ranges on your guns but only your longest range weapon is effective that means you're exposing your mech to fire one gun. Where as if you fire 3-4 guns you deliver a more significant punch so the risk is worth it.

I see people complaining about legging and boating as purists that think it's unfair because players want to build and strategize their mechs in ways they don't agree with. No rules are being broken, nobodies cheating what is happening is legging and boating is effective and rather than accept it people choose to argue the freedom to build your mech and fight how you want is in some way wrong if you want to do that in a way that isn't their way.

There's nothing explicitly wrong about a mono type loadout, there where issues where it became the defacto best build (such has unlimited number of weapons given sufficient space/tons) and eking out a seemingly unfair advantage. I don't think anyone ever complained about 4 medium lasers on a Jenner, and an all-medium-laser build Swayback is common and does exactly what it is supposed to do. There are enough checks and balances in MWO that there will be advantages and disadvantages to both mono weapon type builds and more varied ones. I prefer two weapon ranges instead of three or sometimes four different ones.

[V3nom0us]

Sorry if anyone has discussed this, and if so oops..but..ill get on with it anyway... How do you think Boating will turn out in this iteration of MW?
For instance, Atlas loaded w/ nothing but large lasers and or PPC's. Minimal leg and back armor, upper torso and arms completely loaded out...I know heat is an issue, but one alpha strike should end anything your aiming at...thoughts?

Edited by V3nom0us, 18 May 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Max Grayson]

in before IT starts

Edited by Max Grayson, 18 May 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Zervziel]

V3nom0us, on 18 May 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Sorry if anyone has discussed this, and if so oops..but..ill get on with it anyway... How do you think Boating will turn out in this iteration of MW?
For instance, Atlas loaded w/ nothing but large lasers and or PPC's. Minimal leg and back armor, upper torso and arms completely loaded out...I know heat is an issue, but one alpha strike should end anything your aiming at...thoughts?

Heck the lights and meds would eat that mech alive.

Edited by Zervziel, 18 May 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[Skylarr]

This may be good in 4v4 and you can chance shutting down for 10 seconds, Sure. 12v12 Not a good idea.

TT has rules for a Mech overheating by to much hurts the Mechwarrior.

Edited by Skylarr, 18 May 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Zervziel]

I think boating shouldn't be excluded, but I don't want Mechwarrior 4's crap multiplayer which consisted of nothing but snipers and boats, all just going for that one-shot kill.

[Sheilei]

My Cicada with AC2 would leg it from 720 meters and just pummel it from maximum range.