101 replies to this topic

[Helmer]

Merged.



Cheers.

[Sheilei]

V3nom0us, on 18 May 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

My question to you is..how would that ruin the game for you..it is a strategy like any other..it has already been pointed out..and i know from past experiance.. the legs are a horrible weak point..if you see someone doing a crazy alpha strike..you know to keep distance and take out the legs..im not saying this Will be my play style..or anyones..I was merly asking how it would fair in this iteration of MW..
the last thing i want is for another ruined game..MW and battletech as a whole has put up with way too many crappy games..im hoping this one will bring back the fire for us old schoolers that have been around all the way through MW4 mercs and Black Knight..and then had to deal w/ the crappy xbox versions..

How would it ruin the game for me?

Let's say two players with non boat mechs meet on the battlefield.
They keep maneuvering to gain an advantage and struggle for every hit.
The battle rages long and when they are done whether they won or lost they will probably both be smiling while thinking about those tense moments in the battle.
One player thinks about that one glorious shot that blew away the opponents left arm when things were looking grim.
The other one finds himself remembering the shot to his opponents left torso that set off an ammo explosion.
If the fight was even they could become archrivals but in a friendly competitive sort of way.


But if everybody is boating they get few such experiences. It's all about who gets in the first shot. There is very little skill involved.
Battles tend to be short and there are few moments of tension. No kick of adrenaline. No really memorable events.
It all happens so fast and it all seems to be the same.
With so brief fights you don't feel any....bonds with your enemy. No rivalry.

If it was an old west quickdraw contest things would be fine but it ain't. Maybe i'm just being too emotional about this but that's how i enjoy my games.
I like struggling for survival. I'm in it for the thrills.

But if i meet a boat mech that long battle won't happen. Either i find a range that he can't reach or he one shots me.
No thrills.

Edited by Sheilei, 18 May 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[THELONGSHANKS]

boats are totally lame. I am more for a varied combat experience.

[V3nom0us]

They may be Lame to some...but once the Omnimechs drop into the game w/ the clans..you can bet ER Large lasers, Gauss canons, and ER PPC's will be used and abused...if the laser damage is given over time and is slightly less effective..then ER Large may be replaced w/ pulse lasers. Autocanons and gauss..but who knows..

[Zervziel]

V3nom0us, on 18 May 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

My question to you is..how would that ruin the game for you..it is a strategy like any other..it has already been pointed out..and i know from past experiance.. the legs are a horrible weak point..if you see someone doing a crazy alpha strike..you know to keep distance and take out the legs..im not saying this Will be my play style..or anyones..I was merly asking how it would fair in this iteration of MW..
the last thing i want is for another ruined game..MW and battletech as a whole has put up with way too many crappy games..im hoping this one will bring back the fire for us old schoolers that have been around all the way through MW4 mercs and Black Knight..and then had to deal w/ the crappy xbox versions..

I think what most people are worried about is basically MWO becoming MW4's multiplayer where there were no real battles, it just became a game of Hide and Seek. The only thing people cared about was that one shot. Multiplayer was basically an extended quick-time event, spam AS to not die. It took over and felt more like a FPS than a mech simulator. Yes it may be a valid strategy, but so many people were turned off of the previous game by that same stunt, so naturally, they'd rather not see boating rear it's ugly head again.

As Helmer mentioned, lasers are DOT now, so instead of doing all their damage to one spot, it's spread out. As for the rest, I imagine people will still try to boat gauss and PPCs, while others might try giving the the new lasers a go when boating.

Got merged before I could post last time.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Sheilei, on 18 May 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

My Cicada with AC2 would leg it from 720 meters and just pummel it from maximum range.

This^^

Fast 'mechs with long range weapons are the cure for the medium-laser boat. That's actually beside the point, however. Role combat looks pretty convincing so far, so boats will have plenty of weaknesses too in highly mixed situations (as will fast snipers).

Zervziel, on 18 May 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I think what most people are worried about is basically MWO becoming MW4's multiplayer where there were no real battles, it just became a game of Hide and Seek. The only thing people cared about was that one shot. Multiplayer was basically an extended quick-time event, spam AS to not die. It took over and felt more like a FPS than a mech simulator. Yes it may be a valid strategy, but so many people were turned off of the previous game by that same stunt, so naturally, they'd rather not see boating rear it's ugly head again.

As Helmer mentioned, lasers are DOT now, so instead of doing all their damage to one spot, it's spread out. As for the rest, I imagine people will still try to boat gauss and PPCs, while others might try giving the the new lasers a go when boating.

Got merged before I could post last time.

Agreed that this should be everyone's worry, since there seems to be an almost infinite number of crummy 'mech games out there. It looks here like they're at least trying to do something different.

[Redshift2k5]

Sheilei, on 18 May 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

How would it ruin the game for me?

Let's say two players with non boat mechs meet on the battlefield.
They keep maneuvering to gain an advantage and struggle for every hit.
The battle rages long and when they are done whether they won or lost they will probably both be smiling while thinking about those tense moments in the battle.
One player thinks about that one glorious shot that blew away the opponents left arm when things were looking grim.
The other one finds himself remembering the shot to his opponents left torso that set off an ammo explosion.
If the fight was even they could become archrivals but in a friendly competitive sort of way.


But if everybody is boating they get few such experiences. It's all about who gets in the first shot. There is very little skill involved.
Battles tend to be short and there are few moments of tension. No kick of adrenaline. No really memorable events.
It all happens so fast and it all seems to be the same.
With so brief fights you don't feel any....bonds with your enemy. No rivalry.

If it was an old west quickdraw contest things would be fine but it ain't. Maybe i'm just being too emotional about this but that's how i enjoy my games.
I like struggling for survival. I'm in it for the thrills.

But if i meet a boat mech that long battle won't happen. Either i find a range that he can't reach or he one shots me.
No thrills.

Is your issue with boats or alpha strikes? A mixed loadout of lasers, AC/20s, and SRM are going to dish out a punishing alpha strike, moreso than 8 medium lasers might provide and with less heat management issues.

Lasers are the easiest weapon to boat but a lot of their oopmh is reduced because of turning into damage over time (neither pinpoint accurate nor dealing all damage to one location) as well as having separate convergence for arms-mounted vs torso-mounted (making it even more difficult to get all eight medium lasers to hit a prime location)

If they have only one weapon type, they're going to have difficulties with targets outside their maximum range (or inside the minimum range), lasers and PPC will of course have to worry about heat a lot more than mixed-loadouts

[Max Grayson]

Zervziel, on 18 May 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I think what most people are worried about is basically MWO becoming MW4's multiplayer where there were no real battles, it just became a game of Hide and Seek. The only thing people cared about was that one shot.

I hope i dont derail my own thread.......but boat or no boats, 2 or 3 mechs working as a team (as i expect some well trained groups to do) are still going to one shot a lone mech out of position

so my point i guess is, does it really matter if there are boats? there are many posts already pointing out the weakness of a boat in a fight verus a balanced mech in a 1v1, lets not forget that there are going to be 24 mechs running around a map

Edited by Max Grayson, 18 May 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Teamwork is OP

[V3nom0us]

Max Grayson, on 18 May 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I hope i dont derail my own thread.......but boat or no boats, 2 or 3 mechs working as a team (as i expect some well trained groups to do) are still going to one shot a lone mech out of position

so my point i guess is, does it really matter if there are boats? there are many posts already pointing out the weakness of a boat in a fight verus a balanced mech in a 1v1, lets not forget that there are going to be 24 mechs running around a map

I think we will see boated mechs as part of a balanced team popping up....even if those boats no longer consist of one or 2 single types of weapons..there will still be mechs tailored to firing all long rance weapons..(long range boats)..as well as close range brawlers packing AC's and flamers...its part of playing a Mech game..

[Max Grayson]

V3nom0us, on 18 May 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

I think we will see boated mechs as part of a balanced team popping up....even if those boats no longer consist of one or 2 single types of weapons..there will still be mechs tailored to firing all long rance weapons..(long range boats)..as well as close range brawlers packing AC's and flamers...its part of playing a Mech game..

^ I concur

[Outlaw2]

Garth Erlam, on 11 May 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

There is boating, but it's no more useful than a mixed-bag build.

I find this very hard to believe, but I'll take your word on it

[Gauge]

This thread confuses me a little bit, but maybe it's because I've never really been part of the MW or BT community online before. There seem to be two words being thrown around, and I can't tell if they're being used synonymously.

"Boating" and "Alpha".

I understand boats stack lots of similar weapons, but does that automatically associate them with large alpha strikes? Personally, the only problem I really see is if you can build a mech that can win more by luck than skill. If you just have this massive alpha that frequently one-shots enemies, that would be a problem. But it sounds like the Devs have a lot of controls in place to keep that from happening.
So, I don't have a problem with all lasers, or all missiles, or all flamers or whatever. I also don't have a problem with powerful alpha strikes, provided they're balanced out, and not insta-kills (Or at least, not often instakills... lucky headshots aside or whatever).

I think it's unfair to want to downplay 'boats', unless we see that there is a broken/unfun advantage to them (which I gather has been the case in many previous games). But I think the Devs seem pretty on the ball about this.

[V3nom0us]

gauge, on 18 May 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

This thread confuses me a little bit, but maybe it's because I've never really been part of the MW or BT community online before. There seem to be two words being thrown around, and I can't tell if they're being used synonymously.

"Boating" and "Alpha".

I understand boats stack lots of similar weapons, but does that automatically associate them with large alpha strikes? Personally, the only problem I really see is if you can build a mech that can win more by luck than skill. If you just have this massive alpha that frequently one-shots enemies, that would be a problem. But it sounds like the Devs have a lot of controls in place to keep that from happening.
So, I don't have a problem with all lasers, or all missiles, or all flamers or whatever. I also don't have a problem with powerful alpha strikes, provided they're balanced out, and not insta-kills (Or at least, not often instakills... lucky headshots aside or whatever).

I think it's unfair to want to downplay 'boats', unless we see that there is a broken/unfun advantage to them (which I gather has been the case in many previous games). But I think the Devs seem pretty on the ball about this.

The whole purpose of an Alpha strike is that its the first stike you use and therfore uses all your main weapons in a blast designed to devistate any enemy...due to the high heat generated by this initial "Alpha Strike" the mech is then forced to use grouped weapons fire to destroy the now crippled enemy mech...boats generally have the advantage when using these kinds of tactics...they are obviously made w/ the highest damage output available for that particular platform in mind...but as you said there seem to be a lot of safe guards in place to keep a boat from being "too" overpowered..no matter what the game or game type though..there will always be a place for this kind of gameplay..as i said before its part of battletech..

[Max Grayson]

gauge, on 18 May 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

This thread confuses me a little bit, but maybe it's because I've never really been part of the MW or BT community online before. There seem to be two words being thrown around, and I can't tell if they're being used synonymously.

"Boating" and "Alpha".

I understand boats stack lots of similar weapons, but does that automatically associate them with large alpha strikes? Personally, the only problem I really see is if you can build a mech that can win more by luck than skill. If you just have this massive alpha that frequently one-shots enemies, that would be a problem. But it sounds like the Devs have a lot of controls in place to keep that from happening.
So, I don't have a problem with all lasers, or all missiles, or all flamers or whatever. I also don't have a problem with powerful alpha strikes, provided they're balanced out, and not insta-kills (Or at least, not often instakills... lucky headshots aside or whatever).

I think it's unfair to want to downplay 'boats', unless we see that there is a broken/unfun advantage to them (which I gather has been the case in many previous games). But I think the Devs seem pretty on the ball about this.

Yep you pretty much summed it up and hit the nail on the head. Players are concerned boating leads to OP one shot alphas. Which i agree with you, that as i read the information , the dev's have system in place that limit one shot alpha strikes by a single player. Which is to say they may happen just not with unbalance occurences.

V3nom0us, on 18 May 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

The whole purpose of an Alpha strike is that its the first stike you use and therfore uses all your main weapons in a blast designed to devistate any enemy...due to the high heat generated by this initial "Alpha Strike" the mech is then forced to use grouped weapons fire to destroy the now crippled enemy mech...boats generally have the advantage when using these kinds of tactics...they are obviously made w/ the highest damage output available for that particular platform in mind...but as you said there seem to be a lot of safe guards in place to keep a boat from being "too" overpowered..no matter what the game or game type though..there will always be a place for this kind of gameplay..as i said before its part of battletech..

yeah what he said.....beat me to it

[Max Grayson]

Garth Erlam, on 18 May 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

The difference, for me, was the alpha.
Alpha with that build: 44 damage.
Alpha with my build: 60 damage (!!!)

I am guessing boating and alpha's are being tested in game, look at the Week of the 18th in reveiw thread for the boat that was tested

[Jonas]

As with Mechs, Medium lasers and mid range Autocannons are the work horses of the battle field.

[JP Josh]

V3nom0us, on 18 May 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Sorry if anyone has discussed this, and if so oops..but..ill get on with it anyway... How do you think Boating will turn out in this iteration of MW?
For instance, Atlas loaded w/ nothing but large lasers and or PPC's. Minimal leg and back armor, upper torso and arms completely loaded out...I know heat is an issue, but one alpha strike should end anything your aiming at...thoughts?

as i stated before lazers deal damadge over time now that mech would be usless if it came against a single scout with support or two scouts not to mention i suspect friendly fire is enabled so theres a chance your buddys alpha stike may kill you in one shot to if he is also aiming for the scout but hits you instead.

[LordDeathStrike]

Garth Erlam, on 11 May 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

There is boating, but it's no more useful than a mixed-bag build. Also people need to remember that because of the hardpoint system, you can't just add weapons all over the place.

That said, is the Swayback a boat? The Jenner? The Catapult C1?

Popular builds in the F+F currently do stack similar weapons, but they're based on the above variants so...


Three PPC's - 30 damage. Eight medium lasers - 40 damage (and 13 less tonnes, and almost half as much heat)

ya but lasers are dot, you have to hold on target to get that 40 dmg!

JP Josh, on 19 May 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

as i stated before lazers deal damadge over time now that mech would be usless if it came against a single scout with support or two scouts not to mention i suspect friendly fire is enabled so theres a chance your buddys alpha stike may kill you in one shot to if he is also aiming for the scout but hits you instead.

which is exactly why ff has to be on, to prevent people from unloading at their ally to try and hit small mechs running around in the lance.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Another thing to consider when talking about weapons is their actual effect on the enemy. For example I assume/expect a PPC will cause a hit enemy to be rocked as well as possibilty some other effects due to the particles having actual mass vs lasers hitting a target having no mass thus no actual effect on the enemy mech accept damage. Same goes for ACs and Missiles actually exploding against the target.

This could be a huge reason to use other weapon types than lasers. Nothing worse lining up you big, limited ammo Gauss Rifle or AC/20 for a kill shot, only to have your aim ruined because someone hit you with a SRM instead of a medium laser.