119 replies to this topic

[Haitchpeasauce]

The HBK-4P is a precision aim mech and alpha strikes generate heat like nothing else. It actually requires skill and care to pilot well. That's why.

[Codejack]

Haitchpeasauce, on 02 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Only the tip of the iceburg of the role of Lights.

Oh, I respect a good light mech pilot; I used to run an AC/10 Flea with a big engine and jumpjets, but they worked differently in the old Netmech.

The way this game is currently set up (and the fact that I am middle-aged and not a teenager anymore ;(), I prefer mediums and heavies, and since I don't like any of the mediums in game at the moment... well, I have the Catapult pilot tree fully unlocked and am working on Cataphract

Haitchpeasauce, on 02 December 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

The HBK-4P is a precision aim mech and alpha strikes generate heat like nothing else. It actually requires skill and care to pilot well. That's why.

...or it requires skill to loadout properly...

[Trauglodyte]

Haitchpeasauce, on 02 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Only the tip of the iceburg of the role of Lights.

Only the tip of the iceburg for Light drivers that are willing to expand their mindset. Too many people play this game like rabid drooling lemmings that run straight at anything that has a red triangle over its head. Disregard the 7 other people next to them or that you just abandoned your teammate, you've gotta get that kill so your score board looks respectable.

Joseph Mallan, on 02 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Are you kidding? Sure teh StreakCat is getting a few more kills that the rest of his builds but take heed that a Streak launcher hits will 100% of all damage. It is supposed to be exactly what it is. What is broken is the Hard points! Why does a Mech need 6 missile hard points when it normally holds 2 launchers. Don't blame the weapon system for the designer's mistake. If the Cats had TWO Missile hard points only this would not be an issue. So don't blame the weapon for the DEVs oversight. 2 Streaks are not OP 4 Medium lasers are not OP, 6 Streaks do the same damage as 6 Medium lasers with just as much convergence. So why is there no QQ over the 8 Laser Hunchie?

I've been ******** about this from the get-go. There are TOO many weapon mounts on mechs. TT mechs ran a mix of weapons to give them a mix of long range and short range options. There was no "alpha", boating was an extreme rarity and typically had an extremely bad downside to it, and each mech worked as a function as a whole. But PGI is letting people play Dr Frankenstein with their mechs. Why should a Catapult run two SRMs and four Lrg Lasers in its nose? Why would an Awesome boat 7 Med Lasers? The list goes on and it makes no damned sense. HPs need to be pulled back and they need to be limited by weapon size. Or heat needs to be looked at again.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 December 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[LethalMezzle]

barnmaddo, on 02 December 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

The OP is the only one who posted anything remotely resembling data, everyone else is just trolling with their unsupported opinions.

You don't need statistics to use logic.

[Jalen]

A couple notes before I get to my point:
- I proudly call myself a light/scout pilot.
- My two primary mechs are the Jenner D and Raven 3L.
- The Jenner is my primary scout, the Raven is my primary "wingman" and anti-scout mech.
- My normal ping is around 25ms. The lowest I've seen it is 19ms, the highest has been 44ms. No lagshields on me.

My opinion on StreakCats:

I hate StreakCats. I find them cheap, cheesy, gimmick builds for poor players (or poor sports) who lack imagination and only care about getting the easiest kills possible. I will fully admit that some of my bias against StreakCats is because I pilot light mechs because they are a build that can be highly deadly to my mechs of choice, but most of my bias against them is because it is a cheesy, easy-mode method for poor players. But hey, some players need easy-mode, so I understand and expect things like that.

However, despite my feelings about the StreakCat and its pilots, the StreakCat itself is not an overpowered build. It is just a powerful build. Its advantages are obvious, but so are its disadvantages. Want an easy, guaranteed win against a StreakCat? Stay at least 300m away from it. They are not heavily armored and do not move too fast. I've seen the better pilots using different tactics to increase the advantages of the common StreakCat build, but even these will not save a StreakCat from their disadvantages.

I have built a StreakCat myself, primarily to see what all of the fuss was about, but also because as a newbie StreakCat pilot, I wouldn't be as effective and would die relatively easily compared to veteran StreakCat pilots. I figured that seeing how easily a StreakCat can be killed would give me a distinct advantage in killing them myself. This is worked out excellently for me. The only time I get killed by StreakCats these days is when they are able to surprise and ambush me when I'm already damaged. So as long as I'm not a total meathead and I don't go bumbling around within 300m of a StreakCat, there's really nothing they can do to me. I have nobody to blame but myself for dying under a hail of SSRM fire these days. I still hate seeing them, but as long as I remain aware of my range from them and use the situation to my advantage it really isn't hard to take them down.

Oh, and my own experiences piloting a StreakCat confirm the negative things that other people have said about them: They truly are easy to get kills in. They truly are a cheap and cheesy way to play MWO. It is easy for a newbie or bad pilot to do well in a StreakCat, and if you are a skilled pilot you can really do a lot of damage with them, especially if you're working together with other people to cover up for the build's weaknesses.

Concluding, I think StreakCats as they are right now are just fine. I hate going against them, but that has nothing to do with their viable place within the game. I think far too many people are letting their own bias against StreakCats (and GaussCats, and any other builds considered "overpowered") color their view on their place within the game. The build isn't the issue, it's the pilots who choose to use those builds in a cheesy, one dimensional way. And these pilots -must- be expected in the game because people are always going to look for an easy, effective way to kill stuff. Good pilots don't need to rely on cheesebuilds, but they can be incredibly dangerous with them. And at that point, is it really a cheesebuild or is it just a build for a very specific, narrow-focus role? Either way, learn their disadvantages and use those disadvantages against them.

Now, my opinion on lights... specifically Jenners.
If you rely on knocking a Jenner down to kill it, you are not a good pilot nor are you a good gunner. I've played thousands of matches in a Jenner, let me assure you that we die very easily. Not being to knock us down right now has nothing to do with Jenners being powerful in matches right now, but it does have a lot to do with bad Jenner pilots being able to be more effective than they would normally be. When collisions do come back into the game, the good Jenner pilots are still going to be good Jenner pilots and people who die to them will still consider Jenners overpowered. It's only the bad Jenner pilots who are going to suffer, especially the newer pilots who have never dealt with knockdowns before.

As for the lagshield, as a player with a low ping it affects me just as much as it affects all of you. When I'm in a light mech and I have to try and kill that lagshielded Jenner, it's just as difficult for me as it is for you. However, the first thing I do when I see a Jenner is I note the pilot's name, I look at the scoreboard and see what his/her ping is, and I adjust my play accordingly from there. If the enemy Jenner has a ping over 100ms, I know there's going to be some lagshield to deal with, and if that player has a ping in the 250-350ms range, I know it's going to be a serious pain. So I increase the lead I'm aiming with, I aim more for the legs, I stay away from circles-of-death, and if I have Streak SRMs on my mech, I rely on those more than I rely on beam weapons. I try and bait that Jenner in towards my teammates so that there's more damage from other sources being done to them.

Just like the StreakCat, a lagshielded Jenner's advantages do not protect them from their disadvantages. A bad Jenner pilot is easy to kill, even with a lagshield. Bad Jenner pilots make bad decisions, they run away in straight lines, they overuse their jumpjets in bad ways, they rely on the circle-of-death too much and they tend to have target focus issues. They either get too focused on attacking one mech, or they don't focus enough and spread their fire around to way too many targets to be effective. Bad Jenner builders load goofy weapons without enough heatsinks and they like to strip armor out of arms and legs.

Again, in conclusion, the Jenner is not overpowered. The lack of collisions and the presence of lagshields for high ping players do not make them overpowered either. If you're relying on collisions to defeat enemies, you're doing it wrong. If you're blaming another player's ping for your inability to hit the target, you're not adjusting properly for their ping. Obviously with ballistic weapons, this is easier said than done, but it's not impossible. Be aware of the enemy player's ping, adjust your playstyle when you see high ping players in fast mechs and you'll be able to compensate just fine with a little practice.

Remember folks, your mileage may vary.

[LethalMezzle]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

2 Streaks are not OP 4 Medium lasers are not OP, 6 Streaks do the same damage as 6 Medium lasers with just as much convergence. So why is there no QQ over the 8 Laser Hunchie?

Because 1) Lasers don't rock your view, 2) Lasers actually need to be aimed and 3) 8 Medium Lasers produce more than two and a half times the amount of heat that 6 SSRM2s do.

Edited by LethalMezzle, 02 December 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Elkfire]

I sure wish I was skilled enough to get a streak cat, turn on chainfire and hold down my left mouse button.

Edited by Elkfire, 02 December 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[Codejack]

LethalMezzle, on 02 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Because 1) Lasers don't rock your view, 2) Lasers actually need to be aimed and 3) 8 Medium Lasers produce more than two and a half times the amount of heat that 6 SSRM2s do.

1) Lasers can blind you (darken your view, whatever)
2) Streaks have to be locked; lasers can fire as soon as you see the enemy
3) 8 MLAS (8 tons) weighs considerably less than 6SSRM2 (9 tons + ammo), which you can use for heatsinks

A good pilot is better against large mechs with a laser/ac-boat than with streaks; many of us simply have prohibitive lag, to the point where we simply cannot hit small, fast mechs with those weapons. My K2 will eat an Awesome or a Cataphract much faster than my A1, but if a Jenner catches me in it without support, I will probably die without doing more than modest damage in return.

[Trauglodyte]

Jalen, on 02 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Now, my opinion on lights... specifically Jenners.
<snip>

I'm ok with pretty much everything you said regarding both the StreakCat and the Jenner. The issue that so many of us have with the Jenner is the fact that all of you are abusing the JJ bug (ie, 1 JJ provides all the boost and speed that you need) thus providing you with more alloted tonnage for weapons and heat sinks. Add to that the current NetCode issues that does exist for some and it gets maddening. To all of the above, I'll add the following: TT Jenner was capped at 118.8kph; MWO Jenner is capped at 138.9kph, minus the speed tweak. That is a gain of 17% speed for reasons that I've yet to fathom. Then you're adding two additional energy mounts and an additional missile mount for one variant and yet no Jenner in the entire TT game sported more than 4 laser weapons at a time and only the C2 had more than one missile system (MML-5s). So, you're running a mech which is faster than it should be with more weapons than it should contain in a system with a slightly faulty netcode system and allowing mechs to just run right through each other with no repurcussions.

Now, the above problem isn't specific to the Jenner. Its just that the Jenner represents the absolute worst case scenario of bugs and abuses. Other mechs are nearly as bad but everyone hates the Jenner because the rest of the mechs that do the same thing are at least 3x as big and about 2/3 as fast (if that).

The crappiest thing in this game, and I absolutely love playing MWO btw, is that Streaks are the best way to currently counter the problem but not having Streaks makes you a liability. Streaks are the easiest system to use and you never have to re-aim at any point unless your target dies or you and everyone on your teams loses sight of the target. What's worse is that, come Tuesday, it is going to take ECM to counter the Streaks which are being used to counter Jenners and game bugs. Sad

[Captain Midnight]

If 8 of a weapon is OP, then 1 of that weapon is OP, you just don't notice when it's just one.

[SolCrusher]

Captain Midnight, on 02 December 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

In your ezmode streak A1. Were you one of the 4xA1 lances I encountered? I'm unfortunately stuck grinding lights at the moment for XP so I take a lot of bad beats in my Commandos. I'm pretty sure my team has dominated you hard on multiple occasions so I'm not too worried, hell even if I lose 100% of my games in a Commando I wouldn't be too worried.

I think you ran into a pack of Wolfs! Probably farming CBills for their Stalkers......

[Haitchpeasauce]

Captain Midnight, on 02 December 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

In your ezmode streak A1. Were you one of the 4xA1 lances I encountered?

Might have been us. Gotta have fun sometimes

[Lefty Lucy]

Trauglodyte, on 02 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I've been ******** about this from the get-go. There are TOO many weapon mounts on mechs. TT mechs ran a mix of weapons to give them a mix of long range and short range options. There was no "alpha", boating was an extreme rarity and typically had an extremely bad downside to it, and each mech worked as a function as a whole. But PGI is letting people play Dr Frankenstein with their mechs. Why should a Catapult run two SRMs and four Lrg Lasers in its nose? Why would an Awesome boat 7 Med Lasers? The list goes on and it makes no damned sense. HPs need to be pulled back and they need to be limited by weapon size. Or heat needs to be looked at again.

I would not say that the HBK-4P or AWS-8Q would be considered "extremely rare" and they don't really have extremely bad downsides compared to most of the other canon mechs of the era. They are also both "boats."

The A1 having 6 hard points is not the problem. LRM and SRM A1s are capable, damage-dealing, and mobile, as befits a 65-ton mech with jump jets, but neither of them are the absolute *monstrosity* that the SSRM A1 is. Why is this? Because it gets way too much firepower out of a mere 9 tons of weapons. The streak is the problem.

[BOOMLegShot]

#69 Summed it up pretty well. Jenners are overly effective and streaks being their one reliable counter makes them overly effective.

Jenners are so good there's hardly any real reason to run any other mech in the 20-60 ton range. Their speed cap and number of hardpoints are just too high. Commandos are just lighter armed and armored Jenners who can't jump (their speed advantage is negligable). Most medium mechs are slightly better armed but 10x more vulnerable so increased armor doesn't mean much. You have to get to Catapults or heavier before the increased weapons and armor make up for the decreased speed.

A hearty "huh?" to the guy who says Streakpults are easily countered by staying more than 300m away. Streakpults have the extra space for an engine that let's them go 75km/h easy. So you have to be in a mech going fast enough to stay away with enough 300+m firepower. Which mech can do that? What decent weapons are you going to use for that range? A large laser boat? Auto cannons trying to hit with two circling 80km/h mechs? The best you can do is hang back in the 300s with a fast light mech doing marginal reduced damage with medium lasers. If the Steakpult forces you to do for the battle then he's already kind of neutralized you as a threat.

[Codejack]

Captain Midnight, on 02 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

If 8 of a weapon is OP, then 1 of that weapon is OP, you just don't notice when it's just one.

OK, so now streaks, gauss, medium lasers and AC/2s are "overpowered;" at some point, don't you just get the urge to grab the people saying this and scream, "SO WHY AREN'T YOU USING THEM?!"

[Captain Midnight]

I am using them, I still want them to be nerfed...

[Xandre Blackheart]

Fix the damn netcode and SSRM's will return to being niche builds.

The only reason SSRMs seem to be "overpowered" is because you can't hit a damn thing with anything else but lasers or lrms.

SRMs, ballistics, ppcs are all mostly useless unless you and/or your target is moving relatively slowly. As soon as they are useful again streaks will return to being filler weapons.

[Codejack]

Lefty Lucy, on 02 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

The A1 having 6 hard points is not the problem. LRM and SRM A1s are capable, damage-dealing, and mobile, as befits a 65-ton mech with jump jets, but neither of them are the absolute *monstrosity* that the SSRM A1 is. Why is this? Because it gets way too much firepower out of a mere 9 tons of weapons. The streak is the problem.

9 tons? Well, I guess if you never want to actually shoot. You need ammo, too, you know.

Now add 7 tons for enough ammo to last through a decent match, and you are at 16 tons. 6 MLAS and 10 heatsinks is more DPS and in the same neighborhood, heatwise (depending on how many heatsinks you put on the streakcat), with a longer range and better precision. 2 AC/2s gets almost the same DPS with much better range, and a CTF-4X can mount 4 of them. A HBK-4J can mount 9 SLAS....

Streakcats are not OP, they are just disproportionately responsible for killing Jenners. Most other mechs get killed by all sorts of things, but to a Jenner pilot, it seems like every time they get killed, it's by a streakcat. It's just observational bias in action.

[SolCrusher]

6 SSRM2s are not OP, what will be OP is a A1 with 6 SSRM6s.

[Trauglodyte]

Lefty Lucy, on 02 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

I would not say that the HBK-4P or AWS-8Q would be considered "extremely rare" and they don't really have extremely bad downsides compared to most of the other canon mechs of the era. They are also both "boats."

The A1 having 6 hard points is not the problem. LRM and SRM A1s are capable, damage-dealing, and mobile, as befits a 65-ton mech with jump jets, but neither of them are the absolute *monstrosity* that the SSRM A1 is. Why is this? Because it gets way too much firepower out of a mere 9 tons of weapons. The streak is the problem.

It isn't so much that they're rare in game but rather rare in the sense that, in canon (and that is the big thing here), mechs are built to handle combat on multiple platforms: short range and long range. In the case of the Swayback, they pulled out the AC/20 and replaced it with enough medium lasers to do the twice the damage of the autocannon but with the need to add three more heat sinks. Not a major trade off by any means but rather a design decision. LRM boats worked the same way - remove the need for support weapons and add in more LRMs. In both cases, though, you lose out on something. The Hunchback, by design, is absolute meat at long range because it can't do anything. And the LRM boat loses all point defense for more LRMs which it can't use at short range.

The problem is that Battletech designed mechs either balanced their weaponry with both long range and short range so that they could fight at all ranges OR they specialized to the extreme allowing for major drawbacks. BUT, and this is a huge issue, BT mechs sacrificed armor and heat sinks for weapons - we don't do that. BT mechs sacrificed speed for weapons - we don't do that. BT mechs were designed to play on 4+ hex maps - our maps are pathetically small with enough terrain to almost completely avoid range issues (in the case of the Hunchy). BT mechs also kept a somewhat balance with the number of weapons they carried - we don't do that either. We're working on a much higher level than BT and, as such, are adding a large level of imbalance to the game. Streaks are incredibly imbalanced, specifically cause they don't require a new lock after they're fired and they only currently hit the torsos. Put them on a mech that you can't out run with a lock that won't drop and you've got an issue.