425 replies to this topic

[Damien Matashy]

So reading through the interview, i noticed a few things.

this one is the first thing that i noticed

Quote

Ryan: Some speculation, since you mentioned the ELO matchmaking system earlier in a dev post (or at least a PGI staff member did), is that some kind of BV-like system is going to be implemented with matchmaking. How transparent will the matchmaking parameters be?
Russ: I’m sorry. Are you referring to phase 3, where you actually get into actual battle value and players skill level?

So to me at least this means at some later point there will be a BV and elo matching happening, when? no one not even them it seems know when that will happen.

this one also caught my eye

Quote

Ryan: I played with the Awesome 8-T. I believe that was one of the trial mechs a few weeks ago. I was surprised that with a little bit of heat management it was surprisingly effective, so that definitely helped change my opinion around trial ‘mechs.

Russ: Yeah I think that’s mostly the case. Certainly there are some that are just more difficult for new users. The trial ‘mechs, remember, fulfil two purposes. New players are actually only one half of it. The other half is that when there's a brand new BattleMech introduced into the game like say the Cataphract, players might want to try before they buy. Right before they spend their C-bills or their MC, so the other purpose is to just be able to trial that ‘mech before you purchase it.
So we’ve got two aspects for having the trial mechs and we’re continuously looking for ways to evolve the new player experience. Obviously, getting new players to come into the game, enjoy the game and keep playing it is incredibly important for the success of a free to play game like MechWarrior Online. Right now I think that’s tough right it’s tough for a new player to come in and get hooked for mostly those reasons we’ve discussed. Right now they’re being matched up against some pretty darn good players

They seem to understand that Trial mechs are not going to preform as well as some of us that have custom mechs that we have busted out collective heads against the keyboard to p.i.m.p out.

this part about pilot skill,

Quote

Ryan: And speaking of improvements, your weekly patches, and how things work into the overall bigger picture. A part of the original road map for the development of MechWarrior Online was the pilot skill tree, which is known today as modules. What prompted the change and what is in the future for modules? For all aspects of being a pilot on MechWarrior Online

Russ: Well I think you’re right, but I think it hasn’t maybe evolved as much as people think. There are still pilot skills, just not a pilot skill tree the way we were originally describing it to people. It did evolve from that a little bit but really the idea of the pilot skill tree was always to allow the player to customise or to direct what type of pilot they wanted to be. So if you wanted to be an extra-good scout, not only would you have your scout mech, mech trees and mech efficiencies maxed out, but on a pilot side you’d start to choose pilot skill points that would guide you more towards being a better scout.

A little bit....how about a whole lot away from what was first brought to us. there is no role warfare where the pilot skill tree is included. no scout tree, not support tree, nothing. we basically have to think in our head that we are a scout pilot or a support pilot. when i first saw the trees, that is what i thought was cool. I thought "now i can really play a support mech." then i saw the trees and was like "well how the frack am i suppose to be a support pilot with no real skills to back that up, besides my own pilot skills"
I mean as it stands now in open beta, I would suggest waiting three or six months and see if it gets any better.

Edited by Damien Matashy, 03 December 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Neros]

Death Knell, on 03 December 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Also, side note. When are ******* weapon values actually going to be in game? Anyone who doesn't go to these forums doesn't know **** about weapons because some ******* is too lazy to add values to the game.

IT'S A MINIMUM VIABLE PRODUCT! I'D LIKE TO SEE YOUR GAME!

Oh, I'm terribly sorry. Garth moment.

In all seriousness, they could make the grind much, much longer if they'd just give players the ability to modify trial mechs. Imagine if you could do anything to trial mechs except sell their equipment.
Want to throw in an engine of your own? Great. It'll be returned to your mechlab when trials cycle out.
Want to change your weapon loadout? Second verse, same as the first. Now put me on a Mule so I can put 'em in a Hearse.
Want to add Artemis/ES/FF/DHS? This is a little trickier but you'll surely at least be reimbursed appropriately.
Want to get EXP for driving trials? You should get that in full, too. Consistent access is the benefit of owning a mech.
Want to add camouflage? Default only. You'll work to represent.
Cockpit doodads? Sure.

The big draw here? New players can actually make and learn from their own mistakes with mech lab instead of being forced to suffer through those of someone else while still being at the mercy of the trial mech rotation until they can afford mechs of their own.
Consider how many people dismiss MWLL for lacking a mechlab. Now consider how long it takes a free player to access mechlab. The mechlab is a basic hook that will keep new players interested in playing until there is some greater metagame. Well, that and the implied serious revamp to the economy to deal with suicide grinding and most likely the complete removal of repairs outside of persistent CW gameplay. ... But the overhauls needed to make this work would require a wipe and refund in a live environment.
God ******* damnit.

[KingCobra]

OK here is my last opinion on this subject.#1 I like stock mechs and like to play every trial mech MWO has.#2 I think a trial Vs trial only Matchmaking option should be implemented.#3Trial mech should only be used in other Matchmaking if needed as a fill in for a FFA.#4I don't care who pilots a trial mech vet or new player if its a vet great fun battle if its a new player great they might learn something.#5 heat is fine on trial mechs they were designed that way so learn to manage your heat and learn to group weapons that are not all alpha strikes.#5 a trial or stock only matchmaking with varied maps game modes and 1v1-12v12 play should work just fine. Also the same Matchmaking types for Owned mechs Founders Mechs and premade teams would work great also.#6 a trail or stock faction war matchmaking like in the old BTU or 3025 league would be great.#7 last of all a true game lobby system like the old msn gamming zone where everyone could gather chat form teams and play MechWarrior MWO would be super. P.S your all my MechWarrior brothers so lets help PGI fix the game and work out Matchmaking and bugs I don't always agree with PGI but im still on there side.

[Jason1138]

i dont think some trial mechs are bad at all. some obviously are terrible

[KharnZor]

buckX, on 03 December 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

As fun as it is to think that all you gains you made after buying your own mech are due to increased skill and the like, that' simply isn't the case. "Fire Discipline" is not the correct answer. These mechs were designed under rules with 10s recycle rates. Because of that, they don't overheat if you only fire them every 10s. You can call that fire discipline, but realistically, it's that with the sweeping changes made to the heat system, the stock mechs all are severely overgunned. Both in TT and MWO, there is an optimal ratio of weapon tonnage to heat sinks, but the recycle change drastically modified where that sweet spot is. Custom mechs can adjust. Stock mechs can't.adjust. I don't think there's a stock build out there that doesn't benefit from removing weapons to add heat sinks, or downgrading ER versions to their non-ER version.



Point proven, I guess. Chain fire has no place with energy weapons (depending on how PPC scramble is implemented, it might in the future). Chain firing to conserve heat means you aren't using the full dps on your weapons. Just remove one and add heat sinks. If you really want to stick with your config, then group fire, and fire less often. Your damage will group better, and you can hold out for the perfect shot.

Wut? chain fire has no use with energy weapons? I'm sorry but you are pretty wrong there. Chain fire, when used correctly can keep up a constant stream of fire while keeping heat at a manageable level giving you enough time to set up your shots for your bigger weapons or for an alpha. Removing a weapon for more heatsinks is terrible advice. Learn to manage heat.

[MustrumRidcully]

KharnZor, on 03 December 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Wut? chain fire has no use with energy weapons? I'm sorry but you are pretty wrong there. Chain fire, when used correctly can keep up a constant stream of fire while keeping heat at a manageable level giving you enough time to set up your shots for your bigger weapons or for an alpha. Removing a weapon for more heatsinks is terrible advice. Learn to manage heat.

If your chain fire is actually allowing you to produce less heat, then it means that you are firing less often than your weapons normally could. Once you start firing your weapons less often than they could, you have to ask yourself - don't I have too many weapons?

Now, there are many scenarios where you will not fire your weapons anyway. The enemy is in cover, there is no target in range.

But the moment targets start to get into range, and you can fire at them and they can fire at you - you better try to inflict the most damage you possibly can - but if you have to chain your fire and lower your damage output too be able to maintain firing at all, you reach the point where you have too many guns and not enough heat sinks. If your enemy has a build that can sustian his fire longer or can deliver more damage then you, he can kill you before you can kill him.

[Ransack]

Quote

Russ: [...] I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that trial mechs are no good [...]

For the trial mechs, all they are for the most part is just stock variants and theres a lot of stock variant BattleMechs that are extremely good. So I think for the most part people playing in trial mechs are not at a disadvantage because they’re in stock BattleMechs, they’re at a disadvantage because they’re being put up against extremely advanced and experienced players. So once we get the matchmaker going where we get brand new players are being matched up against other brand new players they’re gonna do fine.

I see that and think that there is a part missing. i think it should read

"So once we get the matchmaker going where we get brand new players are being matched up against other brand new players they’re gonna do fine against other Trial mechs."

Trial against trial, no one can complain that they are gimped. I think that is what he was getting at.

I could be wrong though.

[Sifright]

Neros, on 03 December 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

IT'S A MINIMUM VIABLE PRODUCT! I'D LIKE TO SEE YOUR GAME!

Oh, I'm terribly sorry. Garth moment.

In all seriousness, they could make the grind much, much longer if they'd just give players the ability to modify trial mechs. Imagine if you could do anything to trial mechs except sell their equipment.
Want to throw in an engine of your own? Great. It'll be returned to your mechlab when trials cycle out.
Want to change your weapon loadout? Second verse, same as the first. Now put me on a Mule so I can put 'em in a Hearse.
Want to add Artemis/ES/FF/DHS? This is a little trickier but you'll surely at least be reimbursed appropriately.
Want to get EXP for driving trials? You should get that in full, too. Consistent access is the benefit of owning a mech.
Want to add camouflage? Default only. You'll work to represent.
Cockpit doodads? Sure.

The big draw here? New players can actually make and learn from their own mistakes with mech lab instead of being forced to suffer through those of someone else while still being at the mercy of the trial mech rotation until they can afford mechs of their own.
Consider how many people dismiss MWLL for lacking a mechlab. Now consider how long it takes a free player to access mechlab. The mechlab is a basic hook that will keep new players interested in playing until there is some greater metagame. Well, that and the implied serious revamp to the economy to deal with suicide grinding and most likely the complete removal of repairs outside of persistent CW gameplay. ... But the overhauls needed to make this work would require a wipe and refund in a live environment.
God ******* damnit.

I've suggested this in the past.

It would be really good tbh.

[Zyllos]

What builds for the trial mechs that make them worst than customized mechs? They both follow the same build rules so are they not using the full tonnage allowed?

I think the reason why we see such a HUGE disconnect between Trials and Custom mechs is ES, DHS, and to a MUCH lesser extent, FF.

If you stayed within the same building tech (no ES, DHS, and FF), what changes to Trial mechs do you make to make them run better?

Take the AWS-8Q. This mech, staying with the lvl 1 Tech, can not be optimized any better when staying with PPCs. But because PPCs are underpowered, it is much better to optimize with LL and ML for more heatsinks or a larger engine.

The HBK-4G is another common one. Staying with lvl 1 Tech, it can only really be optimized by removing some tonnage to add ammo, when staying with the AC/20. Or, you could take a smaller AC, when then makes the mech much more manageable.

As you can tell from the above, Trial mechs are optimized within their element, but MWO has a completely different environment (double armor without double ammo or damage per ton, ~3x RoF giving advantages to smaller heat weapons, heat system which focuses only on shutdown, trying to make lvl 1 Tech equivalent to lvl 2 Tech, all weapons fired on arms/torsos converge on the same location). This different environment pulls those Trial mechs out of their element and this is where they are horriblely under optimized.

If they balanced the system around ideas that are already held true in the TT (normalizing ammo to armor per ton, fixing the RoF to be more inline with the Solaris rules, heat system with includes other penalties, allow lvl 2 Tech to supplant lvl 1 Tech, then balancing convergence with either Cone of Fire or something), you would begin to see the Trials to play much better against other mechs of their Tech level.

Sure, Trials will never be able to run as well as Custom mechs because this allows optimization of the mech around the player and allowance to higher level tech, but Trials should be competative against other mechs in their same level of tech.

[Corvus Antaka]

LMAO

20 years of mechwarrior.

Stock and c6 do not mix.

Anyone who actually plays a lot of mechwarrior knows this.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 03 December 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Timelordwho]

Why are people knocking the trial AWS? It pops out of cover, fires 2 volleys for 60(!) potential damage in 3s at a target 800m away and then slides back behind a building to cool. That's the epitome of long range burst fire support.

If you hit your shots, you blow up any mech in the game in 2-3 burst.

[QuantumButler]

Timelordwho, on 03 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why are people knocking the trial AWS? It pops out of cover, fires 2 volleys for 60(!) potential damage in 3s at a target 800m away and then slides back behind a building to cool. That's the epitome of long range burst fire support.

If you hit your shots, you blow up any mech in the game in 2-3 burst.

hahahaha yes a 80 ton assault mech should be played like you're in gears of war.

[LaserAngel]

Timelordwho, on 03 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why are people knocking the trial AWS? It pops out of cover, fires 2 volleys for 60(!) potential damage in 3s at a target 800m away and then slides back behind a building to cool. That's the epitome of long range burst fire support.

If you hit your shots, you blow up any mech in the game in 2-3 burst.

I've only met a handful of people that can do that or the people that do run the PPC are only running two standard ones on an Atlas along with a Gauss Rifle. Then we expect someone in the first time out to learn about it in a trial mech and get stomped while shutdown.

[Timelordwho]

QuantumButler, on 03 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

hahahaha yes a 80 ton assault mech should be played like you're in gears of war.

If you play him like I said, the XL problem mysteriously disappears as well...

The AWS isn't an Atlas. Don't try to play it like one.

[FinnMcKool]

I still think that trial mechs should be able to use a limited mech lab ,for one thing the Mech labs is one of the best parts of the game and what better way to get new players hooked than show them how fun the game is?

let them Mech lab the trial mech , after battle it goes back to stock config, they can then mech lab it again for the next battle.

Im not saying give them everything just some heat sink / weapons tradeoff type stuff.
also a little more info about Min and Max ranges would help in the mechlab.

[Purlana]

Timelordwho, on 03 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why are people knocking the trial AWS? It pops out of cover, fires 2 volleys for 60(!) potential damage in 3s at a target 800m away and then slides back behind a building to cool. That's the epitome of long range burst fire support.

If you hit your shots, you blow up any mech in the game in 2-3 burst.

The problem is you have very limited opportunities. If you miss or if they get close to you, your toast. You can't exactly trade shots, with your vulnerable side torso and terrible heat.

GR Cat is superior in almost every category.

Edited by Purlana, 03 December 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[Leetskeet]

Yeah, I remember scanning over this "interview"

I'd say that I was surprised that they were clueless and disconnected, but then I've been saying that for months. It's no surprise to me that they're just riding cruise control on their "vision"

Edit : It double posted for some reason

Edited by Leetskeet, 03 December 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Timelordwho]

LaserAngel, on 03 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I've only met a handful of people that can do that or the people that do run the PPC are only running two standard ones on an Atlas along with a Gauss Rifle. Then we expect someone in the first time out to learn about it in a trial mech and get stomped while shutdown.

Right. It's a player skill issue, and it will take a few matches to learn to play that mech. If you were player a sniper in any other game, and tried to sit in assault rifle range, and out of cover, exactly the same thing would happen: you'd get wrecked.

I'm not saying its the most optimal build, but it epitomizes the ultra long range burst fire support role.

I personally would field it with a ML add another streak+ ammo, swap an ERPPC for a LL. possibly swapping ERPPC for normal PPC, but then it would be better at midrange and worse at long and short ranges.

[SixstringSamurai]

LoL I tired the trial Jenner and it over heats if I fire twice on Frozen City not even using the the SRM 4. That's pretty bad. Problem is they keep tweaking heat values in such a way that MOST mechs in a stock configuration are completely worthless even if you know how to do the weapon groups.

[Leetskeet]

No, take the PPC's off. If you absolutely HAVE to have a long range weapon that you waste the range on, put on two ER Large Lasers in the chest. Do not ever use PPC's, they are ***. They overheat you, you'll never hit anything but an Assault or slow Heavy with them, you're going to miss a majority of the time on anything long range that's moving, and if you're not willing to overheat yourself even more, they have a minimum range. They suck, take them off, do not use them.

The Stock 9M is probably THE WORST possible newbie mech that could have made the list.

Edit : No, I lied, that freaking Cicada was the worst mech that could have made the list. IT'S SO BAD

Edited by Leetskeet, 03 December 2012 - 12:17 PM.