425 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Oh I realize I used a interesting example Mustrum. But even a bad weapon is still deadly in the right hands. The Canon designs are just that, Canon. We have a lot of less than optimum builds on TT. however the Awesome 9M isn't one of them. it is a respectable Mech that I would happily use in the intended role and I would be a force to be reckoned with. In the MMO with 2.5 cyclic fire rates per turn, the Awesome and other large energy weapon using chassis are artificially handicapped.

[Purlana]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Oh I realize I used a interesting example Mustrum. But even a bad weapon is still deadly in the right hands. The Canon designs are just that, Canon.

Canon design with less then cannon heat dissipation "per turn".

And if the weapon is bad, you can't call it "very good"...

Edited by Purlana, 10 December 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Oh I realize I used a interesting example Mustrum. But even a bad weapon is still deadly in the right hands. The Canon designs are just that, Canon. We have a lot of less than optimum builds on TT. however the Awesome 9M isn't one of them. it is a respectable Mech that I would happily use in the intended role and I would be a force to be reckoned with. In the MMO with 2.5 cyclic fire rates per turn, the Awesome and other large energy weapon using chassis are artificially handicapped.

In a way I think it was bad that PGI implemented the Mech Lab so early. If they had developed it later, and stock was all you had, these balancing issues would have been much more important early on. Of course, maybe the lack of a Gauss Cat would also have just forced everyone to accept that overheating in 9 seconds is okay. I don't know.

[Joseph Mallan]

You know, you may have a point. I only played the 9M for a hour and I knew it was broken under the present heat system! I used to strip the small weapons, Swap the ERs for standard PPCs and add a 4th or a Large Laser and some electronics. that won't even solve the real problem in the MMO. Heat needs to recycle on a 4 second cycle. thus energy weapons still have to watch their RoF but cooler weapons could be used as they were intended. Also a Grasshopper with 22 single sinks was heat neutral if you didn't fire the LRM5! here it would be a hot mess! Sad too, cause its a good ride!

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

You know, you may have a point. I only played the 9M for a hour and I knew it was broken under the present heat system! I used to strip the small weapons, Swap the ERs for standard PPCs and add a 4th or a Large Laser and some electronics. that won't even solve the real problem in the MMO. Heat needs to recycle on a 4 second cycle. thus energy weapons still have to watch their RoF but cooler weapons could be used as they were intended. Also a Grasshopper with 22 single sinks was heat neutral if you didn't fire the LRM5! here it would be a hot mess! Sad too, cause its a good ride!

I don't know the Grasshopper stats, but I know that the Jagermech in MW:O will be able to overheat in less than 6 seconds. It's like MW:O is just stealing item names and mech designs from some completely different game.

Kinda like what Battletech did to other franchises.

[Moungrym]

I see what you guys are saying. And I agree up to a point. But until the disparity between increased firing rates and heat generations is taken care of, you could call any canon ppc trial mech broken (which it is, you have a point there).

On the plus side, I feel like I've personally benefited from having to manage my heat better while getting the hang of the ropes here. Made some mistakes, that was unavoidable. But in the end I feel a lot more confident about managing heat in my custom mech, after 3 days straight of the trial Awesome. That wouldn't have been the case if you'd given me a supercooled beamspammer, and I feel as if that approach would bring in the needless crutch syndrome. Besides, without an elo system in place, no matter which loadouts of mech you serve to the trials, they're just going to get obliterated when facing premades.

While I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about these things as you lot are, I felt like my posting could have had some merit since it brought in the proverbial "newbie" perspective on the state of things, and it's us who are stuck using these trial mechs for a while.

Stock Mechs Are Extremely Good - for the role they fill. If they were extremely good overall, what would be the point of mech lab anyways ?

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 December 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I don't know the Grasshopper stats, but I know that the Jagermech in MW:O will be able to overheat in less than 6 seconds. It's like MW:O is just stealing item names and mech designs from some completely different game.

Kinda like what Battletech did to other franchises.

Grasshopper
1 large
4 Mediums
1 LRM5
22 Single sinks
Full (or near) armor
Same speed as a hunchie and 4 Jump jets.
By right is should be heat neutral!

Jager was a little hot, 5s over deuces plus 2 medium on 10 sinks... not blistering heat but more than the sinks could fully handle. however you are right in the MMO it will self destruct rather quickly.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan' said:

Jager was a little hot, 5s over deuces plus 2 medium on 10 sinks... not blistering heat but more than the sinks could fully handle. however you are right in the MMO it will self destruct rather quickly.

In real men's Battletech, Medium Lasers generate only 3 heat, so the total was 10 heat per turn from weapon fire. Of course, if you were moving, you would heat up a bit.

[Imagine Dragons]

Begs the question, are stock clan mechs going to litterally die in a fire?

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 December 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

In real men's Battletech, Medium Lasers generate only 3 heat, so the total was 10 heat per turn from weapon fire. Of course, if you were moving, you would heat up a bit.

*Shrug* Never liked the Jager myself, weapons to light (damage not tonnage), armor to light, and just no good over all.

[MustrumRidcully]

XenomorphZZ, on 10 December 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Begs the question, are stock clan mechs going to litterally die in a fire?

Not sure. Let's look at everyone's favorite mech - the Timber WOlf, aka Mad Cat.

It's Prime Variant comes with:

2 Clan ER Large Lasers
2 ER Medium Lasers
1 Medium Pulse Laser
2 LRM 20s
2 Machine Guns.
15 Engine Heat Sinks, 15 Out-of Engine Heat Sinks. That means 15 * 2 + 15 * 1.4 = 51 heat sinks.
Heat Capacity: 81. Dissipation rate: 5.1 H/sec

let's assume all Clan weapons have the same cooldowns as now. FOr the ER medium Laser, I wold raise the heat by 1 as it was done for the Medium Laser.
That means:
ER LL: 2.35 H/sec
ER ML: 1.5 H/sec
MPL: 1.33 H/Sec
LRM 20: 1.26 H/sec

Total: 4.7 + 3 + 1.33 + 2.52 = 11.5 H/sec
Net Average Heat Gain per second: 6.4 H/sec
81 / 6.4 = ~12.65 seconds to overheat.

Well, it's not as hot as the Jagermech would be. And I believe the Awesome 8Q and 9M are both worse.
(Note, however, that this mech probably would have about twice the firepower of the AWS-8Q. And that it was heat neutral in the table top game)

[Joseph Mallan]

Purlana, on 10 December 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Canon design with less then cannon heat dissipation "per turn".

And if the weapon is bad, you can't call it "very good"...

But how can you tell if the weapon is bad if the heat is broken? Garth got 128 damage out of 6 medium lasers before shutting down An Awesome firing 3 ER PPCs should do the same. THAT is weapon balance!

[LaserAngel]

XenomorphZZ, on 10 December 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Begs the question, are stock clan mechs going to litterally die in a fire?

Pretty much, sure their weapons have longer range and damage but on the other hand they're hotter too and we live in a world of not so double heatsinks. As I mentioned before, it takes DHS to run T1 level Inner Sphere tech right now without heatstroke. Only the Small and Medium Lasers stand out. Anything heavier or hotter than the Large Large needs a lot of skill along with +19 DHS to run well.

[Broceratops]

XenomorphZZ, on 10 December 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Begs the question, are stock clan mechs going to litterally die in a fire?

i'm going to lol when a kodiak with an ER large, 8 ER mediums, an ultra AC/20, and 2 SSRM6 spends more time shut down than the trial awesome. 20 DHS on that sucker is about 20 too little.

[Joseph Mallan]

Moungrym, on 09 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I don't know what makes you people whine so much.

I've only just recently started playing MWO, a few days ago to be exact.
Keep in mind what's the purpose of having trial mechs. They're just there to ease in new players,
like myself. And I must say, I had no trouble at all playing trial. I found this weeks
Awesome rather enjoyable (as for the overheating: boohoo, don't be so ppc greedy).

I'm willing to bet that most of ye debating here are deep into your mech counts anyways.

By the way, notice that most of those "n00bs" that ruin your game gain exp at the end of the match.... Just saying ...

Anyways, enjoying the game a lot (old mw fan ), trial mechs did right by me.

Have a nice day, and pardon my engrish.

i didn't complain at all until I used the 9M. That Mech fails at it's mission completely. It is direct fire support main BattleMech and it cannot fire the PPCs twice without shut down. that Mech fired 5 times OR alternated a 3/2 cycle all game. making it what it is supposed to be... deadly!

[QuantumButler]

They'll probably make clan dubs into truedubs just so they can sell more Grab Deal MC only Tiberwolves and DireWolves.

[LaserAngel]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Not sure. Let's look at everyone's favorite mech - the Timber WOlf, aka Mad Cat.

It's Prime Variant comes with:

2 Clan ER Large Lasers
2 ER Medium Lasers
1 Medium Pulse Laser
2 LRM 20s
2 Machine Guns.
15 Engine Heat Sinks, 15 Out-of Engine Heat Sinks. That means 15 * 2 + 15 * 1.4 = 51 heat sinks.
Heat Capacity: 81. Dissipation rate: 5.1 H/sec

let's assume all Clan weapons have the same cooldowns as now. FOr the ER medium Laser, I wold raise the heat by 1 as it was done for the Medium Laser.
That means:
ER LL: 2.35 H/sec
ER ML: 1.5 H/sec
MPL: 1.33 H/Sec
LRM 20: 1.26 H/sec

Total: 4.7 + 3 + 1.33 + 2.52 = 11.5 H/sec
Net Average Heat Gain per second: 6.4 H/sec
81 / 6.4 = ~12.65 seconds to overheat.

Well, it's not as hot as the Jagermech would be. And I believe the Awesome 8Q and 9M are both worse.
(Note, however, that this mech probably would have about twice the firepower of the AWS-8Q. And that it was heat neutral in the table top game)

This is just a reminder that only the first 10 engine sinks are 2.0. After those first 10, they are 1.4.

[Broceratops]

QuantumButler, on 10 December 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

They'll probably make clan dubs into truedubs just so they can sell more Grab Deal MC only Tiberwolves and DireWolves.

even then its going to be extremely half assed. take the nova. 14 HS. 12 ER mediums. lolz

[Colaessus]

Cant uses the Trial mech, you say???

Why do you have no skill at Mech management??

[Tasorin]

Taizan, on 03 December 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Its all in the last sentence. Technically they are feasible and trade off many advantages of an owned mech due to zero upkeep.. A trial mech is not supposed to be on par with an owned mech, so in that sense, they are fine where they are for when final MM phase arrives.

Let me translate that for you.

"By MC so I don't loose my (insert personal asset here) and get yourself an owned Mech or else suffer the garbage that is Trial Mech;s."