425 replies to this topic

[Sifright]

Sevaradan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

considering they are free and don't have R/R costs they are more than good enough. free mechs should NEVER be able to compete effectively vs an optimized mech baring a massive pilot skill mismatch.

Thats ridiculous.

[Joseph Mallan]

renahzor, on 03 December 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

We're talking about a video game here, one in which you throw new players to the wolves in, as stated, objectively worse equipment in every way, against experienced players in better equipment. It isn't fun.

THAT is perspective.

That is mechanics. Fix the heat the weapons will speak for themselves!
THAT is perspective.

Quote

but work in this game at 1/3rd their canon/lore efficiency.

See we even agree what the real problem is.

Quote

But they have XL engines and ER ppcs to hand out like candy to rookie pilots.

How are new players supposed to try out the tech if it's not out there to use. I know it's both sides of the argument, but frankly you are not going to get the canon changed to suit your liking. It's the heat system that is ruining some classic mechs.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 December 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[Super Mono]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Read as a house soldier you will be paired with several other Assault or heavy Mechs that the House bought for you! Don't work for a House Lord. Do you think the Merc Commander is going to give the FNG the best equipment before he proved his loyalty?

READ: Perspective.

And then let them try it out. Yes this makes even more sense.

What are you talking about? Where is any of this in the game? Go somewhere else if you want to play pretend.

[Scratx]

pesco, on 03 December 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Thanks, my point exactly.

You're welcome, though I'm not sure our emphasis is the same.

pesco, on 03 December 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

You are confusing a kludge to hide the problem with its solution. See my remark above: "the existence of such a system would very much confirm that there is a problem".

No, the problem isn't trial mechs per se, but the fact you throw newbies in them, and they get stomped because between their inexperience and opponents often being highly experienced players in customized mechs (therefore expanding on their particular strengths further), they have no realistic chance of winning.

It's not a joke that the team with the most trial mechs usually loses, but it's usually due to the fact trials are largely used by newbies.

I say that the bigger problem is having newbies and pros matched against each other (regardless of mech). Giving a custom mech to a newbie is only going to marginally improve their effectiveness in the battlefield (and that's assuming the newbie would use a recipe woe be to a newbie to actually build one himself without having any clue about what he's doing). Once we have a matchmaker that cares about player skill and starts matching accordingly, newbies won't be getting stomped so badly.

In the meantime ... a good player can get a good performance out of a trial mech. They're just not going to get the same level of performance as they'd get out of a customized mech, tailored for their strengths. But that doesn't mean they're bad.

It seems to me that a lot of this discussion is more in the eye of the beholder than not. What's bad (or even horrible) for someone could be perfectly fine or even good for another.

Should the devs slap Double Heat Sinks and Endo-Steel on every trial mech or something?... that's probably what it would take for some of the trial mech detractors to stop complaining, since that's the bulk of the difference between a regular trial and a custom "trial-like that doesn't suck" mech. ( /sarcasm on this paragraph ... the weight freed would largely go into extra ammo and heatsinkage, for example, as that's the most recurring stated problem with trials )

[Tennex]

unfortunately theres not an actual way to test the validity of the statements from russ or from players. Like having two same level experience teams one driving all stock dragons vs. another team driving all custom dragons.

but from personal experience i feel that my customized K-2 is a lot better than the stock K-2. I don't run gausspault, but with the gap in difference between how much a Gausspault can do vs. what a stock K-2 can do. I would imagine, that stock varients are a lot worse across the board.

Edited by Tennex, 03 December 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[Sifright]

Scratx, on 03 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Should the devs slap Double Heat Sinks and Endo-Steel on every trial mech or something?... that's probably what it would take for some of the trial mech detractors to stop complaining, since that's the bulk of the difference between a regular trial and a custom "trial-like that doesn't suck" mech. ( /sarcasm on this paragraph ... the weight freed would largely go into extra ammo and heatsinkage, for example, as that's the most recurring stated problem with trials )

No it wouldn't stop ignoring what people are saying you ignorant scrub.

The stock mechs are built in table top where they work.

MWO has triple the fire rate and double the health.

meaning heat generation is way out wack compared to table top because heat sinks dont sink 3x as much nor do they disapate 3x as much.

Then there is the problem with ammo weapons running out of ammo very quickly in stock mechs because a tonne of missiles or ballistics doesn't give you twice the ammo to make up for needing to do twice the damage.

to many people ignore this and wonder why people are saying trials are bad when custom mechs are built around this live environment and trials are not.

[MrPenguin]

Redshift2k5, on 03 December 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

not neccesarily trial vs trial but rookie vs rookie, on a proper skill-based scale.

Yeah, because I play trials for fun from time to time and If I where forced to play against every other trial (which would mostly be new players) I would literally wipe the floor with each and every one of them. And i doubt I would be the only one.

[Sifright]

Tennex, on 03 December 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

unfortunately theres not an actual way to test the validity of the statements from russ or from players. Like having two same level experience teams one driving all stock dragons vs. another team driving all custom dragons.

but from personal experience i feel that my customized K-2 is a lot better than the stock K-2. I don't run gausspault, but with the gap in difference between how much a Gausspault can do vs. what a stock K-2 can do. I would imagine, that stock varients are a lot worse across the board.

no it's possible to number crunch and see that the effectiveness of stock mechs are bad compared to customs it doesn't require any kind of ingame usage to find the problems.

[wanderer]

DrnkJawa, on 03 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Russ is right, trial mechs(most of them) are fine the way they are, you just need to figure out the way to use them

So, let's put the newbies in 'Mechs that have the lowest tolerance for error, meaning their mistakes cost them more than anyone else.

Then, we pit them against experienced players in 'Mechs customized to do well with MWO's gameplay.

This is akin to putting a white belt in a karate dojo with one arm tied behind his back against the top class in the school and expecting him to learn by having his ribs kicked repeatedly into his kidneys- oh, and to get promoted he needs to beat them a few dozen times- or get kicked into the dirt 50 or so times. The second option's faster.

Put the Trials in their own fights. You don't have a "training ground" where you stick newbies against experts and get anywhere fast or in a way that encourages the newbie to continue.

[KingCobra]

Sifright, on 03 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Being able to use a **** to kill an enemy doesn't mean the **** is an effective weapon.

I could run a 5 small laser atlas and kill people.

it's still a stupid build.

Custom mechs are OBJECTIVELY BETTER IN EVERY WAY.

This means TRIAL MECHS ARE OBJECTIVELY WORSE.

Meaning trial mechs are NOT AS GOOD, otherwise described as BAD.

Why does it feel like i'm talking to a five year old who refuses to accept objective reality.




Given that as it stands right now newbie gets his right or left torso blown out dies and doesn't know what the difference is, YES.



No.

You know how you let players know about weaknesses like that? You put a bloody item description in.

Most newbies still try and shoot lrms under 180M.

There is nothing telling them they shouldn't.

How is it that you guys don't understand there are so many interelated issues working together that make trials **** in every single way for new players.

I'm sorry but you must be 2 if im 5 your not taking into account some players like to play stock mechs and yes we know the disadvantages the stock mechs have VS owned mechs were not all as dumb as you seam to be we just preferred to play them as a challenge and to use our skill to overcome the odds. But ill take your comments in a good way because your only 2.

[MrPenguin]

wanderer, on 03 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

So, let's put the newbies in 'Mechs that have the lowest tolerance for error, meaning their mistakes cost them more than anyone else.

Speaking of which, wasn't it you who suggested to plop newbies in commandos which is the definition of a mech that requires zero room for error (pop'd in 1-2 shots).

[Joseph Mallan]

Sifright, on 03 December 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

No it wouldn't stop ignoring what people are saying you ignorant scrub.

The stock mechs are built in table top where they work.

MWO has triple the fire rate and double the health.

meaning heat generation is way out wack compared to table top because heat sinks dont sink 3x as much nor do they disapate 3x as much.

Which is exactly as the TT Old Solaris rules worked... Hmmm imagine that. We need to fix how slow sinks work before we cry about the "bad" designs. Vent heat as TT meant for it to be and we will have Trial Mechs that are fine... not excellent but fine.

[Super Mono]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Which is exactly as the TT Old Solaris rules worked... Hmmm imagine that. We need to fix how slow sinks work before we cry about the "bad" designs. Vent heat as TT meant for it to be and we will have Trial Mechs that are fine... not excellent but fine.

Which also required a completely different load out compared to TT to be effective.

[pesco]

Scratx, on 03 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Should the devs slap Double Heat Sinks and Endo-Steel on every trial mech or something?... that's probably what it would take for some of the trial mech detractors to stop complaining, since that's the bulk of the difference between a regular trial and a custom "trial-like that doesn't suck" mech. ( /sarcasm on this paragraph ... the weight freed would largely go into extra ammo and heatsinkage, for example, as that's the most recurring stated problem with trials )

Don't call me a detractor. IMHO, the heat problem with trial Mechs highlights exactly a flaw in MWO's core game design, namely that none of the BattleTech canon variants are worth their salt in MWO. The fact that we are forcing newbies into these Mechs (and selling them to pros by default) means this isn't just about being a grognard. As a matter of fact, a number of balance issues stem from it as well.

[Scratx]

Sifright, on 03 December 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

No it wouldn't stop ignoring what people are saying you ignorant scrub.

The stock mechs are built in table top where they work.

MWO has triple the fire rate and double the health.

meaning heat generation is way out wack compared to table top because heat sinks dont sink 3x as much nor do they disapate 3x as much.

Then there is the problem with ammo weapons running out of ammo very quickly in stock mechs because a tonne of missiles or ballistics doesn't give you twice the ammo to make up for needing to do twice the damage.

to many people ignore this and wonder why people are saying trials are bad when custom mechs are built around this live environment and trials are not.

I'm neither ignoring what people are saying nor deliberately insulting them. I know about the ammo problem, I had to deal with it on the Founder Catapult C1. And I played the trial C1 with a friend when I got him into MWO. I did just fine with it, despite the crappy ammo count.

The problem is less the mechs and more the matchmaking. (note I am NOT saying all trials are fine or that they are what I would call competitive with customs... I do NOT believe I ever claimed that)

Now, please DO make your points next time without insults. Misplaced insults at that.

pesco, on 03 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Don't call me a detractor. IMHO, the heat problem with trial Mechs highlights exactly a flaw in MWO's core game design, namely that none of the BattleTech canon variants are worth their salt in MWO. The fact that we are forcing newbies into these Mechs (and selling them to pros by default) means this isn't just about being a grognard. As a matter of fact, a number of balance issues stem from it as well.

I wasn't targeting you specifically, and I'm aware that the differences in heat handling between TT and MWO causes many of the issues. Other than a complete rebalancing of ALL weapons, though, I've no idea what could be done about it. I've heard potential solutions proposed before and PGI doesn't seem too interested in them, so I'm not going to raise them.

Edited by Scratx, 03 December 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[pesco]

KingCobra, on 03 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

we just preferred to play them as a challenge and to use our skill to overcome the odds.

Thanks again, my point exactly. Deliberate disadvantage.

[MCXL]

OpCentar, on 03 December 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Yes trial mechs are bad vs highly customized variants but are they really that bad when matched vs other trials?


I think they will be fine if they match trials vs trials only.

The problem then isn't their performance, its the game play experience. A new player will hate the trials because on most of them the heat comes down SO SLOWLY. They were built with a different heat system in mind, and in that system they thrive. In MWO's system they feel just horrible.

Link in sig, sort of explains everything.

[pesco]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

We need to fix how slow sinks work before we cry about the "bad" designs. Vent heat as TT meant for it to be and we will have Trial Mechs that are fine... not excellent but fine.

If you look at the opening post, it clearly calls for an overhaul of the heat system. I don't want them to change the stock variants, they are canon. I want the game to make these variants worth using.

[Joseph Mallan]

Super Mono, on 03 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Which also required a completely different load out compared to TT to be effective.

Which is why those rules died. Modify the sinks cycle time and all will be right in the Battletech Universe!

Quote

If you look at the opening post, it clearly calls for an overhaul of the heat system. I don't want them to change the stock variants, they are canon. I want the game to make these variants worth using.

And I have agreed with you twice, now three times.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 December 2012 - 08:57 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Russ is saying that once matchmaking is improved it won't matter how much Trials suck anymore. A newb in a Trial will fight another newb in a Trial... or an equally bad newb that bought a Mech but fails against equally armed, Non-Trial enemies. This doesn't seem like it would fit right but is probably the best solution. I don't know any other better way you'd balance Trials vs upgraded Mechs. They'd have to change how heat worked or hack the Mechs to give them bonus weight. An alternative would be to nerf upgrades, but then, what would be the point of upgrades? If you aren't better for having them as opposed to not having them, then why would you have them? My suggested solution was to just match up Trials vs Trials only and Owned Mechs vs Owned Mechs only; solving the entire problem without having to create more balance issues. It doesn't matter how much better edited/upgraded Mechs are if they were never matched up vs Trials. Why try to balance them when you could just put them in separate queue pools? Pool 1, nothing but Trial newbs. Pool 2, everyone else.