99 replies to this topic

[Wired]

If you change heat so that heat isn't an issue, than why have it at all?

It's a game mechanic which requires you to think about how you fire your weapons. All of your lasers are NOT meant to be fired at once.

[QuantumButler]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 December 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Heat threshold was *kind of* like HS+30 because as long as you stay under your HS dissipation you never touch the heat scale at all.

Pretty much.

Just imagine, awesome 8Q actually being able to fire 3 ppcs twice in a row [then the third round only fire 2 to not overheat], what a mythical idea.

[Lefty Lucy]

Wired, on 03 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

If you change heat so that heat isn't an issue, than why have it at all?

It's a game mechanic which requires you to think about how you fire your weapons. All of your lasers are NOT meant to be fired at once.

The current system allows you to fire all of your lasers at once. Nobody is saying "make heat not an issue", but people are saying that the heat system is the source of many of the balance problems.

[QuantumButler]

Wired, on 03 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

If you change heat so that heat isn't an issue, than why have it at all?

It's a game mechanic which requires you to think about how you fire your weapons. All of your lasers are NOT meant to be fired at once.

Heat was an issue in TT with the TT scale though, you had to watch it, make sure you didn't fire your big guns too much, they chose to make it a much, much dumber issue in MWO for no good reason, making all those big guns you could actually use in TT, like PPCs, ER lasers, etc, more or less completely useless in MWO.

Edited by QuantumButler, 03 December 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

QuantumButler, on 03 December 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Pretty much.

Just imagine, awesome 8Q actually being able to fire 3 ppcs twice in a row [then the third round only fire 2 to not overheat], what a mythical idea.

When I got into CB the first mech I tried was an 8Q. I was like "cool, this thing is f'in NUTS on TT, I bet it will be awesome (pun intended) in this game. And then I actually got into the match. And it was pathetic.

QuantumButler, on 03 December 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Heat was an issue in TT with the TT scale though, you had to watch it, make sure you didn't fire your big guns too much, they chose to make it a much, much dumber issue in MWO for no good reason, making all those big guns you could actually use in TT, like PPCs, ER lasers, etc, more or less completely useless in MWO.

Of course one of the first things many TT players do when allowed to customize is make their mech entirely heat neutral, as it's eminently possible to design away heat as a concern. I think MWO can and should have a happy middle ground.

[Kilgore]

Stock mechs can do nothing but suck. You can't change that no matter what special magical powers you give them.

Normal mechs can always be upgraded even further with more DPS and armor, thus ensuring stock mechs will always be inferior.

If you don't mind them being under powered, but you just don't like having to watch your heat, this probably isn't the game for you.

[QuantumButler]

Kilgore, on 03 December 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

Stock mechs can do nothing but suck. You can't change that no matter what special magical powers you give them.

Normal mechs can always be upgraded even further with more DPS and armor, thus ensuring stock mechs will always be inferior.

If you don't mind them being under powered, but you just don't like having to watch your heat, this probably isn't the game for you.

If they had a sensible heat scale, stock mechs would at least be able to fire their weapons alot before inevitably dying, making them marginally more useful cannon-fodder for the real mechs on your team.

[Lanessar]

Honestly, no one wants to make heat trivial. But in it's current implementation, it makes possible the three-second wonder. Some minor modifications would prevent this, lengthen matches, and make it a bit more fun to play.

Basically, the idea many players have on the heat system seems to be similar: lower the ability to alpha, but allow more sustained firing. I approve of this idea myself, and the developers have pretty much stated that's what they want to do.

However, the approach of the developers isn't going to achieve that goal with their current "adjustments". All the current modifications (1.4DHS, etc.) so is exacerbate the existing problems for heavier mechs, allow lighter mechs to do MORE of what the devs said they don't want, and make boating low heat weapons or gauss the superb option for optimized attacks.

[Wired]

QuantumButler, on 03 December 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

If they had a sensible heat scale, stock mechs would at least be able to fire their weapons alot before inevitably dying, making them marginally more useful cannon-fodder for the real mechs on your team.

And then allowing customized mechs to fire their weapons all day without worry of heat. I'm surprised you don't see the problem with this.

[Tennex]

Wired, on 03 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

If you change heat so that heat isn't an issue, than why have it at all?

It's a game mechanic which requires you to think about how you fire your weapons. All of your lasers are NOT meant to be fired at once.

so the solution is that people who load up on heat sinks and less weapons produce builds that are much better? by that logic you would even have to nerf heat sinks. which is what they are doing now. and it isn't working

Edited by Tennex, 03 December 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 December 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

When I got into CB the first mech I tried was an 8Q. I was like "cool, this thing is f'in NUTS on TT, I bet it will be awesome (pun intended) in this game. And then I actually got into the match. And it was pathetic.



Of course one of the first things many TT players do when allowed to customize is make their mech entirely heat neutral, as it's eminently possible to design away heat as a concern. I think MWO can and should have a happy middle ground.

That's what most good/FoTM designs in MWO do too, they use a bunch of low heat weapons or shove enough heatsinks on to be nearly heat nuetral.

The streakcat is essential heat neutral, the gausscat is most certainly heat neutral, the 9 small laser swayback can be heat neutral if you don't mind going abit slower than 90kph, etc.

We're still seeing people using the mechlab to design away heat dissipation in MWO, but many of the weapons that were viable with the TT scale are not viable in MWO's scale, so people just chose to not use them.

Wired, on 03 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

And then allowing customized mechs to fire their weapons all day without worry of heat. I'm surprised you don't see the problem with this.

People already fire their guns all day though, because they just use low heat weapons, that's why there's less problem then you think.

It's not like the high heat guns are way stronger than the low heat guns damage wise, it'd just mean people can actually use PPCs or ER large lasers, and would maybe help to make average fights take place at slightly longer ranges, and give people the ability to counter LRMs with direct fire somewhat more effectively.

Edited by QuantumButler, 03 December 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[Tennex]

i'm not saying eliminate heat. i'm saying optimize it. For trial mechs. we can all agree it is not optimized for trial mechs right now. but it is for the mechs that people tweak so those builds are much better.

Edited by Tennex, 03 December 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[Wired]

QuantumButler, on 03 December 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

People already fire their guns all day though, because they just use low heat weapons.

So lets make it so people can fire 4 or 5 large lasers all day without using heat?

That's not a really good fix at all.

[justin xiang]

Tennex, on 03 December 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

i mean whats the worst thing that could happen if heat management is good on the stocks? Players go into mech lab and add more weapons since heat sink is so good now? They can't add more weapons to the stock variant because the stocks are already maxed tonnage.

Players would only need to switch out weapons. Since they arn't messing with heat optimization. if there's a problem you would know that its cuz of weapon balance. and tweek from there.

Just balance around stock mechs. Can't really go wrong there.

This is where the problems came from. Original values for weapons and etc were great on stock mechs... It was when people started making min max custom builds that **** fell apart.

[Wired]

Tennex, on 03 December 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

i'm not saying eliminate heat. i'm saying optimize it. For trial mechs. we can all agree it is not optimized for trial mechs right now. but it is for the mechs that people tweak so those builds are much better.

Look, I understand what you are saying but you need to look at the effects of optimizing heat for Trial mechs versus customized mechs.

By the argument made that Trial Mechs are HORRIBLE for heat compared to customized mechs, it stands to reason that you believe that customized mechs have fewer heat problems.

therefore if you change heat significantly so that Trial Mechs are optimized, think about the effects it would have on customized mechs.

[Tennex]

Wired, on 03 December 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Look, I understand what you are saying but you need to look at the effects of optimizing heat for Trial mechs versus customized mechs.

By the argument made that Trial Mechs are HORRIBLE for heat compared to customized mechs, it stands to reason that you believe that customized mechs have fewer heat problems.

therefore if you change heat significantly so that Trial Mechs are optimized, think about the effects it would have on customized mechs.

it wouldn't have any effect on customized mechs. because instead of having to optimize heat. Now all there is to do is change weapons. And weapons are limited by tonnage much more so than heat sinks.

custom mechs will not become better because weapons cost more tonnage, and to add more weapons there is a tonnage barrier. but to add more heat sinks there is not so much that barrier.

from there, if a mech using certain weapons is overpowerd. its because of the weapon not because of taking advantage of heat optimization. because heat is already optimized

Edited by Tennex, 03 December 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Wired, on 03 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

So lets make it so people can fire 4 or 5 large lasers all day without using heat?

That's not a really good fix at all.

Why not?

4 large lasers is less damage than 8 medium lasers, and less DPS than 9 small lasers, besides, a few current mechs can run 4 large lasers well, and no one is calling them OP.

If you're in favor of the heat scale as is, you're in favor of keeping freeplaying scum in their rightful place, crappy beercans laughably called a "battlemech", and don't want anyone to use high heat energy weapons at all.

Edited by QuantumButler, 03 December 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Wired]

QuantumButler, on 03 December 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Why not?

4 large lasers is less damage than 8 medium lasers, and less DPS than 9 small lasers, besides, a few current mechs can run 4 large lasers well, and no one is calling them OP.

If you're in favor of the heat scale as is, you're in favor of keeping freeplaying scum in their rightful place, crappy beercans laughably called a "battlemech", and don't want anyone to use high heat energy weapons at all.

at zero heat, all I have to do with 4 large lasers is stay outside of the medium laser mech's range. Ergo, balance.

[Purlana]

The problem is not all weapons have the same heat efficiency, so naturally PPCs and high heat weapons will suffer under the current system.

Edited by Purlana, 03 December 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Wired, on 03 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

at zero heat, all I have to do with 4 large lasers is stay outside of the medium laser mech's range. Ergo, balance.

Ah yes, the "just stay out of range lol" argument.

That's easier said than done unless your mech is really fast, in which case you won't have the tonnage for 4 large lasers anyway, fast mechs will be able to use cover to get close, slow mechs will probably mount their own large, long range weapon systems, so again, what's the problem?