97 replies to this topic

[Hakkukakt]

Quote

PapaKilo, on 04 December 2012 - 04:29 AM, said: Let me tell you, this is a p!ss-poor answer.

Double Heat Sinks are supposed to be a straight upgrade. No reason not to use them, other than your design not having enough free critical slots to take full advantage of them. Who cares if doubles are mandatory? They're not SUPPOSED to be balanced against singles. So it takes twenty or so matches to afford them (assuming you don't win all of the matches) ... so what? They are definitely worth it, when at full strength.
...
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I WANT MY FULL-STRENGTH DOUBLE HEAT SINKS, DAMN IT!!! These "Improved" Heat Sinks aren't good enough. Especially with Clan tech looming on the horizon.

huhu poor little thing, you cant kill alone an atlas with your light ? just for say, it's normal ^^ ... people they cant adapt are dead people ... so learn and stop whinning ...

[PhalanxDeath]

Thirdrail, on 03 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Wait, my first question was serious.

WHY does PIRANHA games use the skinless head of a minotaur for their logo?! The piranha is a fish! A FISH, I TELL YOU!!!

Looks like a cow skull to me, have you ever seen what a Piranha does to a cow when it wonders into the water? I think that’s what its supposed to be.

[Morang]

luckyhobbit, on 04 December 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

fingers crossed for the patch today!

And the 'Mech announcement tomorrow. ILya Muromets doesn't count.

[Springbok]

So no answer on my question if they feel the games real-time time frame is still realistic or not?

The clans are supposed to invade early next year already and there seems to be a myriad issues to resolve and features to implement before then.

I suppose no answer is also an answer in itself = What me worried?

[Klaus]

Man, still no ETA on pink paint. Wtf dude

[PurpleNinja]

Sajuk Kar, on 03 December 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Is this a joke? So this is a "beta" but we're not really beta testers, and we're not allowed to test features of the game, just accept whatever the devs tell us as truth. Like "I could core a fully armored Atlas from behind with my jenner in 3 seconds with DHS". Just believing what other tell you as fact without having any desire to verify the information yourself, that's a really great outlook to have in life.

Double heat sinks are bad for enviroment and helps global warming.

[Sajuk Kar]

Sprouticus, on 03 December 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

No, it means they have made a choise and we have to live with it. I would not have minded a pure 2.0 test, but honestly I am totally ok with 2.0/1.4. I still use DHS on almost every build I have, including 2 out of 3 of the atlas builds I use.


To me that says they are worth while. Bumping them would only raise total DPS (especially for heavies) and throw off balance.

The horse is dead Jim.

I've done the math, right now I have 40 standard heatsinks on my Atlas, and with DHS being 2.0, I could have an equivalent of 42. How is 2 extra heatsinks game breaking, or make SHS useless? I put DHS as they are now on my Atlas and they were inferior to standards because of how many crit slots they take up. I object to them being described as a "straight upgrade", clan DHS definatly are but not the IS ones we have now. You get one 2 heatsinks for the weight of one, but the crit space of three. It's a 1 for 1 tradeoff when they do 2.0, but now tht they do 1.4, is a pointless tradeoff that mostly benifits light mechs who only put heatsinks in their engine and screws every one else like heavies and assaults. I think my point still stands, not even letting us test something as important as this and just going by their potentially bull explaination is really bad.

o0Marduk0o, on 03 December 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

They did.

Engine internal heatsinks are 2,0, every additional heatsink is 1,4.

I'm pretty sure they fixed that and all DHS now do 1.4.

[o0Marduk0o]

Sajuk Kar, on 04 December 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure they fixed that and all DHS now do 1.4.

They already stated, that the internals are working as intended with 2,0.

[wanderer]

Garth Erlam, on 03 December 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Q: How will mechs that have less than 3 variants achieve the elite and master tier levels of the mech trees? For example, the Highlander has been announced to only have 1 variant at launch (possible this has changed) [Tvae]
A: I only knew one variant at the time, saying something like "the only variant I know of is the HGN 732." The variants are: HGN-732, HGN-733, HGN-733C, HGN-733P.

Sarna's not always perfect on listing all available variants, but this is straight from the TT makers of Battletech. It's why I've got them linked in my sig.

http://www.masteruni...Name=Highlander

[Sajuk Kar]

o0Marduk0o, on 04 December 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

They already stated, that the internals are working as intended with 2,0.

Could you link to that please?

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 04 December 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[Zalzany]

Everyone keeps missing the fun part that making them 2.0 would make them mandatory part. They don't want them mandatory And the ATLAS user, well I know you love it, but your big hulking toy is a very tiny percent of the mechs, and most couldn't fit 40 heat sinks on them with out using small lasers, or machine guns. The 2.0 upgrade would benifit lights, mediums and heavies, Assualts have a lot more weight to throw around, and therefore more strategies. Changing the heat sinks now would make 2.0 mandatory for anything under 70 tons.

As is I use the 1.4s on a few of my mechs and it makes a huge difference heck I slapped some on a scout that got a little too hot, and can fire non stop now. Upping it to 2.0 would mean seeing a lot more laser hunches running around firing non stop, as is they have to work there groups right to fire non stop. And considering Ive seen a couple of jenner drivers who already are deadly with the 1.4 heat sinks the 2.0 idea kind of scares me.

Edited by Zalzany, 04 December 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[Viper69]

Reno Blade, on 04 December 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

PapaKilo, Viper69, please report in for special training to your SGT.

Aff

[Sajuk Kar]

Zalzany, on 04 December 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

As is I use the 1.4s on a few of my mechs and it makes a huge difference heck I slapped some on a scout that got a little too hot, and can fire non stop now. Upping it to 2.0 would mean seeing a lot more laser hunches running around firing non stop, as is they have to work there groups right to fire non stop. And considering Ive seen a couple of jenner drivers who already are deadly with the 1.4 heat sinks the 2.0 idea kind of scares me.

That's my FRIGGIN POINT. Having the ones in the engine at 2.0 and the ones out of it at 1.4 is a direct and deliberate buff to lights while screwing over heavies and assaults. "And considering Ive seen a couple of jenner drivers who already are deadly with the 1.4 heat sinks the 2.0 idea kind of scares me." They already HAVE 2.0 DHS, because the ones in the engine are that, and scouts and lights alot of the time, only use the heatsinks in their engines, not put any outside. What you're basically saying is that you want your light to keep the full benefits of DHS, but not let any one else have that. That's a great philosophy.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 04 December 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[Bors Mistral]

Garth Erlam, on 03 December 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Q: Can we please at least try DHS at 2.0? It doesn't seem like much of a boost to lights who usually benefit mostly from the engine heat sinks, but heavies and assaults that use big energy weapons need the boost. [Wolfways]
A: No. Prior to releasing the Dual Heatsink upgrade the forums were abuzz with whether or not they would be mandatory on all Mechs. With the numbers we've chosen, they aren't, so I'd say we answered those questions well. [Garth]

Garth... Mr Erlam... Please, admit already that the current implementation isn't good enough.

First, it was "Jenner-core-Atlas-3-sec". We know that's not the case. We already have Jenners running around with 10 engine 2.0 DHS and the rest filled to the brim with weapons. In the meantime, you can't fit more than ~20 in an Atlas without compromising combat capabilities. And that's 20 if you forego Ferro (which is OK, since no sane person picks that in it's current form) and Endo.

Now it's "the forums were abuzz"... Those same forums are abuzz for a while now with how in-need-of-improvement and confusing to new players your current "DHS" implementation is.

The current heat situation considerably favours light mechs, and punishes heavy and assaults. Considering that most builds we see are running 10 to 20 "DHS", setting all of them to 2.0 would give and increase of 6 to those who really try to cool, or an average of 2-3 to most.

If anything, and if you are still bent that a real 2.0 value would cause terror, what you should really consider doing is equalizing the value of all DHS to 1.8 - less power to those who just slap a big engine and count on it for cooling, more reward for the people who actually try to chill their mechs.

Edited by Bors Mistral, 04 December 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[Klaus]

Sajuk Kar, on 04 December 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

That's my FRIGGIN POINT. Having the ones in the engine at 2.0 and the ones out of it at 1.4 is a direct and deliberate buff to lights while screwing over heavies and assaults. "And considering Ive seen a couple of jenner drivers who already are deadly with the 1.4 heat sinks the 2.0 idea kind of scares me." They already HAVE 2.0 DHS, because the ones in the engine are that, and scouts and lights alot of the time, only use the heatsinks in their engines, not put any outside. What you're basically saying is that you want your light to keep the full benefits of DHS, but not let any one else have that. That's a great philosophy.

I think they said somewhere the DHS nerf was before they were too OP on lighter mechs.

I run a Cicada A2 with 6 Medium Lasers and 16 DHS. On a cold map I can Alpha Strike I **** you not 4 to 5 times in a row. With DHS being 2.0 that would be what? 7 or 8?

Considering 2~4 alphas can fry almost anything's butt off that seems a little insane. The other side of the coin would be to make things generate more heat.

Over all I think it's more of an issue that the bigger mechs are bigger yet still have the same amount of slots. I don't see the logic in that what-so-ever.

Edited by Klaus, 04 December 2012 - 07:23 AM.

[Sajuk Kar]

Zalzany, on 04 December 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

As is I use the 1.4s on a few of my mechs and it makes a huge difference heck I slapped some on a scout that got a little too hot, and can fire non stop now. Upping it to 2.0 would mean seeing a lot more laser hunches running around firing non stop, as is they have to work there groups right to fire non stop.

I just looked at you claim about "the laser hunches firing non stop" and I'm assuming one example of that could be the Hunchback 4P, which if you put 9 medium pulse lasers on it, you could fit the equivalent of 40 heatsinks on it with DHS being 2.0. That would give you a heat threshold of 70 and each alpha from all your weapons would generate 45 heat. That's 64 percent of your heat threshold. You can mess around with the loadout a little, like using medium lasers instead of pulses, using less, but no matter how you do it you're only going to be able to fire 2 or 3 times before you shut down from overheating, and then you're a sitting duck. Yes it will do something like 50 damage, depending on the build, but why is that a bad thing? A weapon that actually takes aiming skill and fire control to do damage, I know that's not popular with alot of people. You better make DAMN sure you land all your shots and in the same place, or that damage is not gonna be enough to kill your enemy and you'll be a defenseless sitting duck. Right now on my "big hulking toy" as you put it, each alpha generates 36 percent heat and does 30 damage, even with 40 heatsinks, and I have to make really sure I hit with all my shots. Assaults are made out to be the masters of the battlefield, but they continue to get nerfed in comparison to lights in every change. Right now a friggin Jenner outclasses an Atlas.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 04 December 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[DocBach]

EmperorMyrf, on 03 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

That's the point. That's exactly what he was trying to say. DHS isn't always mandatory, meaning both SHS and DHS builds are both viable. Increasing it to 2.0 DHS will make it to where SHS builds simply cannot keep up with the DHS builds.

Bout to get flamed, but I think it was a smart move.

DHS was there to allow people to use advanced technology - the same advanced technology that somewhat evens the playing field with the Clans; people cried about how DHS obsoletes SHS. EXACTLY THE POINT. It's a whole new era of technology, its like someone crying that a Pentium 4 system should be a viable built to play MWO - its obsoleted technology and you need something better to replace it to run with other modern systems, just like you need DHS to run with the advanced ER/Pulse/Ultra tech of 3050 BattleTech.

[Sajuk Kar]

Klaus, on 04 December 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

I think they said somewhere the DHS nerf was before they were too OP on lighter mechs.

I run a Cicada A2 with 6 Medium Lasers and 16 DHS. On a cold map I can Alpha Strike I **** you not 4 to 5 times in a row. With DHS being 2.0 that would be what? 7 or 8?

Considering 2~4 alphas can fry almost anything's butt off that seems a little insane. The other side of the coin would be to make things generate more heat.

Over all I think it's more of an issue that the bigger mechs are bigger yet still have the same amount of slots. I don't see the logic in that what-so-ever.

Why do you people continue to miss my point? My point is that right now, the lighter the mech is the more it can take advantage of DHS, and the heavier it is, the less. Because of crit slots. Nothing would be wrong with the scenario you just described, if anyone could respond to your cicada with a mech taking full advantage of 2.0 DHS, by having comparable firepower but with more armor. I don't understand why you think it's perfectly ok for light mechs to maintain their privileged status with regard to being able to utilize DHS, and not allow everyone to be able to do that. It's called "balance".

[Bounty Dogg]

Mister Blastman, on 03 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

> : (

Garth and team: Learn how to make battlemechs. Then get back to us. Obviously you guys have no idea how to do it. If you did, you'd see DHS aren't always mandatory. Sometimes, singles make more sense to use.

2.0 or bust!

See....this....this right here.....THIS is the real reason that we'll never even get to test 2.0 Heatsinks: This Beta community wouldnt be able to take having to give it up again.

Will all the of screaming and gnashing of teeth over the issue as it stands right now, what do you think this community would do if the Devs DID give it to us to TEST for a few weeks, then supply that the data supports what they first thought and that 2.0 sinks have trivialized the heat system, and so must be removed?

Would this community quietly accept the judgement and give 2.0 sinks back?

......................................No.

If you thought the level of screaming and crying was bad BEFORE, let the above scenario happen. It will feel as if the Apocalypse has descended upon these forums. The flamewars, the Trolling, the Troll baiting......it would tear this community apart......and hat highlights the real problem with this community..........we're (and I include my self as part of this community) just too immature to truly BE Beta testers. Over and over again one can find glowing examples of how rational thought is thrown out the window in favor of overreaction, dramatization, bitter arguements, and belittling behavior. So much so that a lot of positive imput/info/helpful information is buried under miles of negativity. Now if the Negativity was presented in a constructive way, that would be ok: sometimes a game needs to be poked in the right direction through negative yet productive feedback. However, 8 times out of 10 the negativity is of so toxic a nature, that any actual feedback in the post/thread would be (and SHOULD be) overlooked by any sane mind to avoid the filth that comes in a lot of posts nowadays.

Guys, we are our own worst enemies here. We complain that the Devs dont listen? Its because we've made them standoffish by what we say/how we say it. We complain content comes out too fast with bugs? Thats cus WE'RE the Beta Testers! part of the reason we're HERE is to help quickly find and report those bugs to help hte process along, NOT to scream about how said bug has ruined the game/destroyed the game. Content is not coming out quickly enough? It has to be readied. If they thought we could HANDLE 3/4ths complete content with bugs that needed stamping out, they'd pass it to us so we could shorten the process by pointing out the where the bugs are, how they occur, steps to make them REcur, and all possible info on it. Beta shouldnt be charging real money? While I partly agree, They do have to sink in funds to keep this thing running. The fact that they made it a choice for us to support to game, instead of asking for a monthly fee, is better than (IMO) the alternative: you know, this game we're all passionate about (positively or negatively) CLOSING DOWN. Cus yes.....that can still very well happen. And I get the distinct feeling that those arguing negatively still see value in this game, or at least potential, or they wouldnt be arguing.....they'd have left by now.

Forgive me for rambling, but my point is really this.......If we want them to TREAT us as Beta Testers....then we have to start ACTING like Beta testers. The more maturely and accurately we can report bugs in a timely manner with accurate information to recreate, and the more we can fight down our passions that need to hurt something because the game is not we envision it to be, the more the Devs will TRUST us with bigger issues, like the testing of 2.0 heat sinks.

you don't give Fire to a child to play with.......either they or you WILL get burned. Time to start showing PGI/IGP we're not children.....anymore.

Edited by Bounty Dogg, 04 December 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[EmperorMyrf]

DocBach, on 04 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

DHS was there to allow people to use advanced technology - the same advanced technology that somewhat evens the playing field with the Clans; people cried about how DHS obsoletes SHS. EXACTLY THE POINT. It's a whole new era of technology, its like someone crying that a Pentium 4 system should be a viable built to play MWO - its obsoleted technology and you need something better to replace it to run with other modern systems, just like you need DHS to run with the advanced ER/Pulse/Ultra tech of 3050 BattleTech.

So if we were to completely follow how tabletop works, we would have clear and distinct tiers of equipment. When a new tier of tech is introduced (like how clan is about to hit next year) then it makes all previous tech obsolete. I know I myself do not want that, and from what I can tell the devs feel the same. Any build using any level of tech should still stand a chance against the highest level of tech, as it will provide a more rich experience to the game. That's how the game works now (more or less, still needs a hair of tweaking but that's coming anyways), and I hope that trend continues.

A very very exaggerated example of tiers could be world of tanks. If you've played it at all, you'll learn that anything two tiers above you will not be hurt by anything you fire and you will get absolutely trashed in one hit. I think the game would be best if it were to steer as far away from that as possible.