40 replies to this topic

[JohnoBurr]

PanchoTortilla, on 03 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Exactly. The all or nothing approach for the new player's first purchase is a huge turnoff.

They can do absolutely NOTHING with the c-bills they earn until they amass 1.7 million of them or more.

So that they can buy their shiny new commando, and instantly be behind the pack again.

On second hand, maybe they'll be at the front of the pack, seeing as PGI wants lights to lead their teams to victory with the impressive lagshield.

Edited by JohnoBurr, 03 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[SamizdatCowboy]

Xenophontis, on 03 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Took me 2 days to get a new hunchie

Now I make about 8-10 million a night if I play with my Merc. Corp mates and buy premium time.

(emphasis added)

Without getting into the feasibility of making 8-10 million a night (even with premium time), I will say the fact you bought premium time goes to the heart of my question: to accelerate the grind you bought premium time. Buying premium time makes a huge difference. You can easily double your per match CBill rewards, effectively halving the time it takes to earn items.

Would you have bought premium time if the grind was fun? And if not, how could PGI make money if there wasn't an unenjoyable grind that forces players to buy mechs or premium time?

To be clear I'm not claiming to know the answer. I haven't studied the underlying business model of F2P, I'm not a game designer, and this is my first F2P game. I'm just legitimately curious what people's thoughts are regarding how a F2P title can make money if the core 'grind' is enjoyable... what incentive would players have to spend money?

Right now it seems to me the F2P business model of MWO is to add pain to the default gameplay that funnels users towards spending MC. I'm not criticizing PGI for doing this because I'm not sure how else you would make money...

Yes there's 'cosmetic items,' but can these really add much to the bottom line?

Edited by SamizdatCowboy, 03 December 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[Xenophontis]

Windies, on 03 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Assuming you drop back to back with no pauses, making 125,000 c-bills free and clear after R&R every match and never lose, with an average match time of 6 minutes per match, you would have to play 8 hours a day to make that true.

If you add in a 1 minuite downtime between matches to account for you actually loading in and waiting for everyone else to load in it becomes 9 hours 20 minuites roughly. It would probably be more accurate to say 2-4 minutes between matches.

Finals week at school and my GF is working all the time. I probably do play that much

[Windies]

Xenophontis, on 03 December 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Finals week at school and my GF is working all the time. I probably do play that much

That's fine but it simply proves that you are far from the average player.

The average player playing something like 1 1/2 hours a night pulling in a constant 45,000, would make roughly 335,000 c-bills a day. Most average players don't play 4 hour sessions every single night.

Edited by Windies, 03 December 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

SamizdatCowboy, on 03 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

The grind sucks. Basically, it takes about a week of playing 2-3 hours a day, every day, at a reasonably high level to get a new mech. And if you want to level up that mech add 2 more weeks to get 2 other variants, plus the additional time to earn the XP on each variant. So really, to 'elite' a chasis you're looking at 1 - 2 months depending on the class, your ability, how much you play, etc.

Now ultimately the problem I have with the grind is not how long it takes but rather that it's, well, not fun. For me to go to elite on the one variant I care about, I have to spend oodles of extra time on variants I don't care about and don't enjoy playing? That's the point where a game stops being 'fun' and starts being a 'job' (hence the term 'grind').

Other games have time-expensive awards.. most obvious perhaps is Battlefield. But getting those awards (most of which are simply for bragging rights or personal satisfaction, and add no bonus in-game) was FUN. Yes it was time consuming and progressively more difficult, but it was also challenging, addictive, engaging, and satisfying.

Sorry, but while leveling up in MWO is time consuming, it's really none of the others. It's not even progressively more difficult, since XP really is handed out like candy... CBills are what are hard to get.

Obviously PGI wants to make a fun game, but as F2P they also want to make money... and so I wonder if they could make money if the grind was fun. After all, by making getting new mechs and weapons and skills time consuming and unpleasurable to achieve, isn't that how they entice players to spend MC, so they can short-circuit the process?

Now I personally am probably never going to spend MC on things like new mechs and weapons... it just doesn't sit right with me. I do spend money on converting XP, cosmetic items, and mech bays... and spending MC on those things seems fair to me.

But I resent being 'forced' to spend MC because the alternative is a decidedly un-fun grind.


TL;DR: Could MWO make money if leveling up and getting new items was time consuming AND fun, or does it have to be semi-unenjoyable to convince users to spend MC?

Lolz.

Typical. Anything requires effort is not fun. Got it.

Well, fortunately, I enjoy the grind. 4 days, and I got my 'Phract. Now I'm modding it out. After that, saving cash for my Stalker.

[Konrad]

The 'grind' is fun. I love this game.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Windies, on 03 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

That's fine but it simply proves that you are far from the average player.

The average player playing something like 1 1/2 hours a night pulling in a constant 45,000, would make roughly 335,000 c-bills a day. Most average players don't play 4 hour sessions every single night.

When I lose I have brought in 60k (founders Phract has no repairs) when I win up to 140k. 6-8 drops an hour. So at least 300k an hour, if not more.

[Windies]

Illyana Arkhipova, on 03 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

When I lose I have brought in 60k (founders Phract has no repairs) when I win up to 140k. 6-8 drops an hour. So at least 300k an hour, if not more.

There is no founders cataphract. You mean the trial cataphract? I generally average around 60-90K in trial mechs for the most part. I'm trying to simulate the average new player who first starts out.

Anyways so 300K an hour... sounds awfully similar to my example, are you secretly trying to agree with me?

[ebea51]

The grind IS fun - piloting mechs is fun.
IF you want more fun, i suggest you clan up. AS YOU SHOULD and the game will become infinately more complex and enjoyable.

You should also experiment with your setups and try new and side-ways things on maps.
For instance, ive been running this week the deep chasm along the north side of Frozen City... which nobody EVER uses, just for fun. AND ITS AWESOME, it can completely change a match and how it flows if you get a group of good people down there and perform a epic flank.

These are the things you should be concentrating on, not just 'urg, need cbills, nothing else matters' - then yeah, your gonna get epic bored rly fast.
Your other option - buy some premium time. It makes a big difference to your earnings. It will take 170-190cbills to 210-230cbills easily. Or get yourself a hero mech too.
*WAAWAAWAA* BUT MWO IS NOW P2W WHEN IS MENT TO BE F2P.
Deal with it, PGI still have to make money to float and bring your the game and constantly patch and improve it.

[Bishop Steiner]

SamizdatCowboy, on 03 December 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

(emphasis added)

Without getting into the feasibility of making 8-10 million a night (even with premium time), I will say the fact you bought premium time goes to the heart of my question: to accelerate the grind you bought premium time. Buying premium time makes a huge difference. You can easily double your per match CBill rewards, effectively halving the time it takes to earn items.

Would you have bought premium time if the grind was fun? And if not, how could PGI make money if there wasn't an unenjoyable grind that forces players to buy mechs or premium time?

To be clear I'm not claiming to know the answer. I haven't studied the underlying business model of F2P, I'm not a game designer, and this is my first F2P game. I'm just legitimately curious what people's thoughts are regarding how a F2P title can make money if the core 'grind' is enjoyable... what incentive would players have to spend money?

Right now it seems to me the F2P business model of MWO is to add pain to the default gameplay that funnels users towards spending MC. I'm not criticizing PGI for doing this because I'm not sure how else you would make money...

Yes there's 'cosmetic items,' but can these really add much to the bottom line?

Well, I am a founder. I did buy premium time. Why? Not to skip the grind, but because I felt this game was worth supporting. My MC only goes to items unattainable with C-Bills.

When I wanna farm cash, I drive my standard engine Founders Atlas. Get an average of 2-3 kill, 500 or so damage. Good Match, 5 kills, 8-900 damage. If I get totally cored out, I MIGHT have 60k in repairs. So on average, I make 250k C-bills AFTER any repairs.average match, 5-6 minutes. Turnaround1 minute TOPS. so 6-7 drops an hour. or 1.5 million C-Bills or more an hour.

Yeah. I skipped the grind. On my founders account. On my Free account, I PUG and Grind 100%. Have played about 16-20 hours on it since Open Beta launched. Am almost done with my second Catapult, and have almost enough money to by my third. Still having fun.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Windies, on 03 December 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

There is no founders cataphract. You mean the trial cataphract? I generally average around 60-90K in trial mechs for the most part. I'm trying to simulate the average new player who first starts out.

Anyways so 300K an hour... sounds awfully similar to my example, are you secretly trying to agree with me?

Founders, Trial. Whatever. I have played this game 3 days. maybe 4-5 hours on each day because it's my days off. I own my own Cataphract already. Am still driving the free one so I can modify my own.

Am I agreeing with money part? I guess. But I disagree it being hard or labor. If mech was any cheaper or faster, I would get bored, because of no challenge. My k/dr is not so good, and I lose more than I win, but am still having fun.

Also most players I know play at least 3-4 hours a night.

Edited by Illyana Arkhipova, 03 December 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

Windies, on 03 December 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Planetside 2 is fun and is pretty easy to grind in as far as I'm concerned. With that said I am willing, and probably will here shortly, buy premium and possibly a couple gun upgrades for some of the vehicles and my most played classes.

To unlock an average 750 weapon, you need to kill on average 2000 people... Granted you can find alternative ways to grind cert points like repping or capturing, but still...
Easy to grind? How so? Gaining certs is the most painful experience I've ever encountered in any game for PS2.

Edited by Xozoyol Zaraoul, 03 December 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Pafetik Bazerka]

This game certainly has issues , game time per rewards is to consuming, for all those that seem to do well there is an equal or greater amount suffering, PGI are chasing their tails on weapon balance issues, there are only a few maps, with not much atmosphere, and if you forked over money your probably feeling a bit bitter about paying for a screwed up fight pitt.

Though I still hold out some hope my patience is wearing thin.

Edited by Pafetik Bazerka, 03 December 2012 - 09:45 PM.

[Esarai]

I've posted on this before, but it doesn't seem like these discussions influence anyone so I'm starting to lose hope.

The main difference I see between the two 'styles' of f2p that could be pursued can be summed up in these sentences:

'This game is awesome and if you buy stuff it can be 500% awesomer'
'This game is awesome, but you'll only have fun if you pay us or sell your soul to it.'

The first statement closely approximates the business model of games like TF2, Tribes: Ascend, etc... You have everything you need to play the game from the get-go and have a good time, just you can opt to pay the developer to acquire items that will give you a certain bonus to better fit your playstyle or whatever.

The second statement is basically where MWO stands right now. At it's core, MWO is ludicrously fun, but most new players never come to experience that because the initial grind is so horrifically unrewarding that they get bored and shift to other activities that have higher rewards per time spent. And think about it, new players don't get to play with the mechlab for 20 hours. The mechlab is, in my opinion, the heart and soul of mechwarrior--it's basically '**** my mech' and PGI made it so you have people wait 20 hours to get to the pimping part. Even then, they can only **** a class of mech that is very difficult to play. Lights do not forgive mistakes easily, and newplayers are prone to making mistakes much more than veterans.

Personally, I believe the first method is by far superior, because it gets your players excited for the game, and lets them imagine how much more fun they could have if they actually did pay. The second one doesn't have much to get players excited, and instead relies heavily on the dedicated BT fans sticking around and buying the cool stuff because they already know what's up, and shepherding their friends into it. If this were a new game and BT had never before been seen, I believe it would have flopped long ago.

EDIT: Oh good god p.i.m.p. is censored? Great now it looks like we're into battlemech sex.

Edited by Esarai, 03 December 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[Balsover]

For me personally, if they made c-bills easier to come by, they would get my money.

I could see myself spending $3-4 a week adding a new mech bay, if I could actually earn a new mech in a week (I play maybe 5 hours a week). But seeing as it takes far too long to do that, they are not getting my microtransactions.

All MWO seems to want is for me to pay them the equivelemt of a full game once a month to enjoy this. Not going to happen.

[Greyfyl]

Lt Limpy, on 03 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

And I can't stand this thought process that seems to expect a F2P online game to get by fueled only by praise and good will from the people playing it... and not currency.

I think you are way off base if you think that's what I was implying. I have no problem at all paying for a game. I just think that the prices for individual mechs and paint schemes are way out of line - even if this was a polished product (which it is most certainly not).

I wouldn't mind paying standard online monthly subscription prices for MWO if it was finished and they just let me play without the grind. I would play for years, just like I did with MW3 and MW4. There was no grind there at all. There is NO NEED for grinding in a MW game.

Edited by Greyfyl, 04 December 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[Windies]

Xozoyol Zaraoul, on 03 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

To unlock an average 750 weapon, you need to kill on average 2000 people... Granted you can find alternative ways to grind cert points like repping or capturing, but still...
Easy to grind? How so? Gaining certs is the most painful experience I've ever encountered in any game for PS2.

I get about 100 certs an hour usually just playing the game. Kills, repairs, heals, revives, mowing people down in tanks. My point however though is that in Planetside 2, the moment I get my first Certification I can use it towards something useful.

[Taryys]

Grind and trial fixes here:

How To Reduce The Grind And Create A Great New User Experience

[Doomie77]

My premium time ran out and I've yet to hit the activate button.

The grind was worse at first, but now I don't notice it. Still having fun.

[aspect]

Esarai, on 03 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I've posted on this before, but it doesn't seem like these discussions influence anyone so I'm starting to lose hope.

The main difference I see between the two 'styles' of f2p that could be pursued can be summed up in these sentences:

'This game is awesome and if you buy stuff it can be 500% awesomer'
'This game is awesome, but you'll only have fun if you pay us or sell your soul to it.'

The first statement closely approximates the business model of games like TF2, Tribes: Ascend, etc... You have everything you need to play the game from the get-go and have a good time, just you can opt to pay the developer to acquire items that will give you a certain bonus to better fit your playstyle or whatever.

I think you are on the right track with your statements, but keep in mind that of the two games you list as examples of "it's awesome right away", one was a pay-to-purchase title for the first four years until switching to f2p once people stopped buying it, and the other one appears to be falling off the radar in it's first year of release. Perhaps a lesson there...