263 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

*SNIP*
EDIT: I'm at home (and patching), so I don't have my armour values, but I have a 300 XL, Endosteel, 6 medium lasers, and 19 Dual Heatsinks on my CDA-2A. So an alpha = 30 damage; 8 alphas = 8 x 30 = 240 damage.

This is all I need Garth.
6 Medium lasers= 30 heat per turn
19(38) Sinks.
Garth you 'cada should NEVER overheat!!!!
TT
(move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining) one turn!
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
Rinse and repeat!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 December 2012 - 09:53 AM.

[LaserAngel]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well it's a 50% increase in damage, so it meant I could literally hold my fire button(s) down on 6ML's while running around at 120km/h. For quite awhile.

And 240 damage is a lot of damage to put out before overheating, and I only had 18/19 DHS. At 2.0, you get more than 20 DHS on a Mech, and there are a lot of weapons you can simply fire forever without heat being an issue at all.

Put another way, I was doing a dual-gauss worth of damage every cycle. And I could do that (roughly) eight times in a row.

Seriously, I don't benefit from DHS being 1.4 - my favourite Mech was vastly superior with it being 2.0 - but there's a reason it isn't, and I understand it.

EDIT: I'm at home (and patching), so I don't have my armour values, but I have a 300 XL, Endosteel, 6 medium lasers, and 19 Dual Heatsinks on my CDA-2A. So an alpha = 30 damage; 8 alphas = 8 x 30 = 240 damage.

I appreciate your comments but I really hope it doesn't end up like the "3 second Jenner" bogeyman we have lived with up until this point. If things really are that bad with DHS 2.0 then Small and Medium Lasers might need another look and if you don't want to touch those to improve the PPC, tweak the damage and cooldown.

You've mentioned before that the Large Laser is near where you want it and it's probably a good benchmark to run the other heavy energy weapons against. Tweaking their heat anymore, PPCs or ER Laser Laser, is only going to flatten them too much and take out their quirks. I know that the PPC's EMP effect is in the cards too.

[MustrumRidcully]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well it's a 50% increase in damage, so it meant I could literally hold my fire button(s) down on 6ML's while running around at 120km/h. For quite awhile.

And 240 damage is a lot of damage to put out before overheating, and I only had 18/19 DHS. At 2.0, you get more than 20 DHS on a Mech, and there are a lot of weapons you can simply fire forever without heat being an issue at all.

Put another way, I was doing a dual-gauss worth of damage every cycle. And I could do that (roughly) eight times in a row.

Seriously, I don't benefit from DHS being 1.4 - my favourite Mech was vastly superior with it being 2.0 - but there's a reason it isn't, and I understand it.

EDIT: I'm at home (and patching), so I don't have my armour values, but I have a 300 XL, Endosteel, 6 medium lasers, and 19 Dual Heatsinks on my CDA-2A. So an alpha = 30 damage; 8 alphas = 8 x 30 = 240 damage.

Ever considered that maybe the medium laser is the problem, not Double Heat Sinks?

Medium Lasers were already deemed very powerful in the table top game, but they are more powerful in MW:O because we have weapon convergence here, instead of random hit generation. In addition, you gave all weapons effectively 1.5 times the range they had in the table top, by using their maximum table top range as their "normal" range without any penalties, and their top range twice that with a linear damage fall off. In addition, in the table top, it was more difficult to hit a target at 180m with a Medium Laser than it was in a Large Laser. ALl you did so far to compensate this as to increase their heat, but you actually also had to look at their damage value, and probably reduce both by about 25 to 50 %.

In pretty much any evaluation I made on weapon balance, two trends emerge clearly:

Ballistics and missiles perform high heat/damage/range energy weapons notably.
Small and Medium Lasers are extremely efficient.



With Single Heat Sinks, the Medium Laser is as efficient as the AC/20 for a 20 second firing endurance and a target goal which is in the range of your CIcada's damage goal. It is still outperformed however by longer range ballistics like the AC/5 or the Ultra AC/5.

With the current Double Heat Sink mechanics, the Medium Laser outperforms every ballistic weapon. But at the same time, the PPC, ER Large Laser and ER PPC and the Large Pulse Laser suck considerably.

You either need to nerf the medium (and small) Laser and give us 2.0 DHS and see what will come from that, or you need to buff the PPC, ER PPC, Large Pulse Laser and ER Large Laser. And projectile speeds, beam durations and EMP effects will be useful, but fundamentally, they won't do enough good if you don't also improve damage or heat values.

And your Autocannon stats are also still all over the place -why are the low range weapon less efficient than the high range weapon?

And have you decided so far whether you want higher tech levels to be real genuine upgrades (that means more damage/effect for the same weight or less weight?), or sidegrades?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 December 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[FiveDigits]

Weapon balancing is the way to go, but it's no use doing it before we have proper DHS.

[Felix]

Should change the name from DHS to 1.5 HS

[Super Mono]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

This is all I need Garth.
6 Medium lasers= 30 heat per turn
19(38) Sinks.
Garth you 'cada should NEVER overheat!!!!

But heat neutral is bad! Mechs running energy weapons should overheat like pigs so we can optimize with low heat ballistics and missile weapons.

A large problem with the dreaded medium laser boogey man is that multiple small weapons can hit one location to equal a large weapon. If we had an actual convergence mechanic or cone of fire then large weapons would be more useful and boating many smaller weapons wouldn't be as overpowered.

[Lyteros]

4-5 alphas of med lasers. Thats 6x 5 x 5 = 150 damage. With 3 sec rof +1 sec beam, so 5 alphas are 20 seconds.
For heat its 4x6x5 = 120 heat.

180 damage are 4 salvos of 2 LRM 15, which fit on a lot of mechs. Thats 17 seconds. With 40 heat.

How about dual gauss instead? 4 sec cooldown, 2 heat, 30 damage... means 5 salvos, 20 seconds,10 heat.

Yeah, the 2.0 duals will make surely such a vast change to this.


IF you can run around with 120 kph, against a moving, defending, cover using target and keep the 1 second beams of all your lasers constant in ONE location for the whole duration, every salvo, you deserve the 150 damage on target.

In reality I doubt most (skilled!) people will get over 75 damage on the same location under those conditions.


===

Jeff K Notagoon, on 05 December 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

this. I keep seeing people whine about PGI triping the rate of fire but keeping heat the same. All PGI did was triple the POTENTIAL rate of fire. if you think the rate should be slower then quit pulling the trigger so fast!

Yeah you keep holding back to 1/3 of your shots. I'll put some gauss and missiles into you every time my cooldown finishes, BECAUSE I CAN. You'll in turn be a wreck while I need a new paint job.

Edited by Lyteros, 05 December 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

This is all I need Garth.
6 Medium lasers= 30 heat per turn
19(38) Sinks.
Garth you 'cada should NEVER overheat!!!!
TT
(move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining) one turn!
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
move
Fire 6 Mediums=30 Heat
Sinks vent 38 heat=0 heat remaining
Rinse and repeat!

The difference I would bring up - in the table top, each medium laser would probably also hit a different target location instead of converging on one point, so 6 MLs would be often worse than 3 PPCs, for example, simply because they chip off a lot of armor without really dealing nasty damage.

That's why MW:O has its MLs too efficient.


But I'd also like to bring something up - even if this mech would be perfectly heat neutral - if you wanted, you could create a real time game where even this mech still would require heat management!

Imagine the heat capacity of the mech was so low that every alpha strike would likely overheat him or at least cause some heat penalties - but his dissipatino would be high enough so that he'd still have sinked all heat away after a complete firing cycle. Then you would end up with a mech firing his MLs not together, but in smaller group, to avoid breaching the heat capacity limit and suffer drawbacks, but still maintain the rate of fire (and thus overall DPS) of your weapons.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 December 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[rgreat]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 December 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

And your Autocannon stats are also still all over the place -why are the low range weapon less efficient than the high range weapon?

Well, AC's are more or less ok, except ac2 overheat too much.
Larger AC's have big alpha strike and ability to make you hits count, so it is ballances things a bit.

Lyteros, on 05 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

4-5 alphas of med lasers. Thats 6x 5 x 5 = 150 damage. with 3 sec rof +1 sec beam, so 5 alphas are 20 seconds.
for heat its 4x6x5 = 120 heat.

180 damage are 4 salvos of 2 LRM 15, which fit on a lot of mechs. Thats 17 seconds. With 40 heat.

How about dual gauss instead? 4 sec cooldown, 2 heat, 30 damage... means 8 salvos, 32 seconds, 32 heat.

Yeah, the 2.0 duals will make surely such a vast change to this.


IF you can run around with 120 kph, against a moving, defending, cover using target and keep the 1 second beams of all your lasers constant in ONE location for the whole duration, every salvo, you deserve the 150 damage on target.

In reality I doubt most (skilled!) people will get over 75 damage on the same location under those conditions.

This!

Edited by rgreat, 05 December 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

rgreat, on 05 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Well, AC's are more or less ok, except ac2 overheat too much.
Larger AC's have big alpha strike and ability to aim better, so it is ballances things a bit.

But what good is great alpha strike capability if you have weapon convergence? 2 AC/20s and 4 AC/10s deal the exact same damage to the same spot.

That's the thing. The TT logic that a high single shot damage is valuable isn't true anymore.

[Super Mono]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

The difference I would bring up - in the table top, each medium laser would probably also hit a different target location instead of converging on one point, so 6 MLs would be often worse than 3 PPCs, for example, simply because they chip off a lot of armor without really dealing nasty damage.

That's why MW:O has its MLs too efficient.


But I'd also like to bring something up - even if this mech would be perfectly heat neutral - if you wanted, you could create a real time game where even this mech still would require heat management!

Imagine the heat capacity of the mech was so low that every alpha strike would likely overheat him or at least cause some heat penalties - but his dissipatino would be high enough so that he'd still have sinked all heat away after a complete firing cycle. Then you would end up with a mech firing his MLs not together, but in smaller group, to avoid breaching the heat capacity limit and suffer drawbacks, but still maintain the rate of fire (and thus overall DPS) of your weapons.

This would be excellent, I would love heat management to be more than pew pew pew whoops time out

[wanderer]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well it's a 50% increase in damage, so it meant I could literally hold my fire button(s) down on 6ML's while running around at 120km/h. For quite awhile.

Congratulations. Now realize that your Clan equivalent delivers the same damage with ER small lasers, and now you know why FASA put in DHS. To give you enough firepower, long enough to compete. Yes, it means that you deliver a much larger punch. Yes, you're supposed to, because that's how Inner Sphere 'Mechs stop getting roflstomped.

Yes, it's more lethal and faster-paced as a result....but that's how Battletech's been since the 1990's real-time and 3049+. SHS 'Mechs aren't a baseline for that any more than a Sopwith Camel is for the modern jet fighter.

And it's sad to see the devs treating it that way.

[MaddMaxx]

TruePoindexter, on 04 December 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I guess people just really want their laser boat online.

As opposed to what? Missile Boat Online? Gaussapult Online? How about Streakapult Online?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 05 December 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[rgreat]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 December 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

But what good is great alpha strike capability if you have weapon convergence? 2 AC/20s and 4 AC/10s deal the exact same damage to the same spot.

1. Convergence is far from perfect. It still fail to hit in one place especially up close and against moving targets. And for hand weapons.
2. You had to hit 4 times from AC5 in one place, but you can hit once from AC20. Easier.

Quote

That's the thing. The TT logic that a high single shot damage is valuable isn't true anymore.

While 2x armor is a definite factor, but this sentience is not really true.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

The difference I would bring up - in the table top, each medium laser would probably also hit a different target location instead of converging on one point, so 6 MLs would be often worse than 3 PPCs, for example, simply because they chip off a lot of armor without really dealing nasty damage.

Not being disputed. But that would be a separate discussion to me.

Quote

That's why MW:O has its MLs too efficient.

They've been to efficient since I can remember.

Quote

But I'd also like to bring something up - even if this mech would be perfectly heat neutral - if you wanted, you could create a real time game where even this mech still would require heat management!

I won't argue this, except to say that there is a difference in putting a limit on this Mech v mechs Like the 9M that can overheat with a single shot of its 3 ER PPCs. A happy medium would be nice.

Quote

Imagine the heat capacity of the mech was so low that every alpha strike would likely overheat him or at least cause some heat penalties - but his dissipation would be high enough so that he'd still have sinked all heat away after a complete firing cycle. Then you would end up with a mech firing his MLs not together, but in smaller group, to avoid breaching the heat capacity limit and suffer drawbacks, but still maintain the rate of fire (and thus overall DPS) of your weapons.

Interesting concept.

[FiveDigits]

There is a simple model that provides a little choice whether you equip SHS or DHS (at 2.0 dissipation):

• SHS: dissipation 0.1 HPS, heat threshhold +1
  
• DHS: dissipation 0.2 HPS, heat threshhold +1 (same as SHS)

The choice is now taking DHS for high dissipation / low thresshold or SHS for low dissipation / high threshhold - especially on large energy-centric mechs.

[LaserAngel]

FiveDigits, on 05 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

There is a simple model that provides a little choice whether you equip SHS or DHS (at 2.0 dissipation):

• SHS: dissipation 0.1 HPS, heat threshhold +1
  
• DHS: dissipation 0.2 HPS, heat threshhold +1 (same as SHS)

The choice is now taking DHS for high dissipation / low thresshold or SHS for low dissipation / high threshhold - especially on large energy-centric mechs.

That was going to be my suggestion. There are a lot of issues involving the heat scale and dropping the threshold on DHS while increasing the dissipation was the only thing that came to mind. You also have Cool Run and Heat Containment skills.

[Steel Claws]

wanderer, on 05 December 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

You can't fire 5 LL's constantly even WITH DHS at 2.0. You can -chain- fire them for continual beaming, but that's it. Quad LL's is enough to cook a 'Phract after 3 4x shots, and that's with 20-21 of the current (engine 2.0, external 1.4) DHS strapped on. A Hunchback is in the same boat.

And amusingly enough, your Raven IS running with 2.0 DHS. The 10 in the engine all run at 2.0, so you're seeing what it'd be like using proper DHS. Does it seem broken with those twin ERLL? Oh, and triple ER PPC's with the max number of DHS on an assault?

That'd be the Awesome-9M. Please, go ahead and show me that incredibly effective fire rate that requires you to fire the ER PPC's one at a time to avoide burning the 'Mech to a crisp- it actually gets more DPS by removing a PPC, using the tonnage to upgrade the engine and add a few more heat sinks instead!

As it stands, the nerfed external sinks basically make a hard road harder for larger 'Mechs, while even a proper 2.0 DHS in all cases won't turn the game into BigLaserWarrior Online- it's about a 10% or so improvement damagewise.

Actually my raven only has a 210 engineo I have 2 regular HS on it.

I'm going to use small words so maybe this sinks in. No mech should be able to just set there and spam alphas. I don't chain weapons BTW. Alternating weapon groups is what is called "Heat Managment". This is a skill. Spamming alphas is NOT a skill and is NOT heat management. The only reason you would have to fire frequently is if you are brawling. If you are brawling with ERPPCs (which are a ranged sniper weapon) you are a fool.

[Joseph Mallan]

Super Mono, on 05 December 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

But heat neutral is bad! Mechs running energy weapons should overheat like pigs so we can optimize with low heat ballistics and missile weapons.

A large problem with the dreaded medium laser boogey man is that multiple small weapons can hit one location to equal a large weapon. If we had an actual convergence mechanic or cone of fire then large weapons would be more useful and boating many smaller weapons wouldn't be as overpowered.

I played heat neutral, or no more than +5 heat for 25 years sir. I can tell you it is in fact not BAD. An Awesome-9M should be capable of firing its ER PPCs in a 3/2 cycle all game long with out overheating. Not heat neutral but proper heat management.

[Super Mono]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

I played heat neutral, or no more than +5 heat for 25 years sir. I can tell you it is in fact not BAD. An Awesome-9M should be capable of firing its ER PPCs in a 3/2 cycle all game long with out overheating. Not heat neutral but proper heat management.

The first part of my post was sarcasm. I want the heavy energy weapons to be competitive with heavy ballistics.