263 replies to this topic

[Sug]

Zyllos, on 03 December 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

If this is true, this is a bad omen for the future of the heat system and weapon balance. There is SO many threads on why the current system is not properly working. Hopefully I either read this thread wrong or PGI will reconsider this.

Why do so many people think heat is broken? It's SUPPOSED to be something you need to manage!! If your mech is overheating it's either a bad config or you're firing too often. Bunch of spoiled brats ruined by running MW4 with No Heat/Infinite Ammo checked off.

[Vermaxx]

Cut this crap with two different values. Either make all dhs 1.65, or make them 2.0.

1.65 becomes 'almost' 1.9 with the xp system, which is slightly less than almost everyone is getting right now. Round to fk player like all game systems, and they preserve their precious balance.

2.0 may slightly unbalance the lighter mechs, but they're already slightly unbalanced. It will allow heavies and assaults to use DHS with a clear conscience, and get the weight savings they are SUPPOSED TO GET from a smaller number of (larger) heatsinks.

[Joseph Mallan]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Supposed to according to what..? Yeah i know the 4xERPPC was a overstatment but i still do not get the argument. Who said you are supposed to be able to do 5-6 aplhas..?



The 4xERPPC was a overstament for effect... But seeing how heat efficeint some builds are right now (my Cicada for an example that in in reality only limited by how much space the heatsinks take up) increase the efficiency to 2.0 and it will perhaps not eliminate my need to watch my heat but it make it almost trivial... and then include in to those numbers the Clan DHS and my heat will be pretty much just there for show. The complaints would be through the roof.And that brings me back to.. do we NEED them?

because at the end of a game "turn" 20 double sinks are supposed to have vented 40 of the 45 points of heat 3 ER PPCs generate in a single turn of fire. One turn = movement + one shot - heat dissipation. So firing 3 ERPPCs would leave a 9M with 5-7 points of excess heat(including movement heat) It takes 30 points of heat AFTER sinks have vented to render an automatic shutdown. So 5 turns at an average of 6 points of heat build up per "turn". That is how the heat system is meant to work. A 3.5-4.0 second sink cycle time would give us a good proximity to this.

And that ends this lesson on how Mech combat "turns" iare supposed to work.

If sinks worked as they were created, a 9M would be a dangerous Mech to tangle with

Also the arbitrary 10 second turn from TT only worked cause one minute of "game time" (6 10 second turns) sometimes took 2 hours to play.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 December 2012 - 09:24 AM.

[Vermaxx]

Sug, on 04 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Why do so many people think heat is broken? It's SUPPOSED to be something you need to manage!! If your mech is overheating it's either a bad config or you're firing too often. Bunch of spoiled brats ruined by running MW4 with No Heat/Infinite Ammo checked off.

Or maybe the 'spoiled brats' from tabletop who realize that the 3049+ tech settings already made heat obsolete. PGI didn't set this game at the 'hardcore' difficulty level of 3025, they chose the carebear Battletech. Clan stuff was there to try to keep people playing BT, speed up games, and make things more appealing to younger players. Like what Games Workshop is doing with 40k.

The neckbeards who prided themselves on playing "real man's battletech" stayed with the 3025 rules. No gauss, no streaks, no XL, no endo, no FF, no DHS, no ER anything. Just you and your mech and the heat gauge.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sug, on 04 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Why do so many people think heat is broken? It's SUPPOSED to be something you need to manage!! If your mech is overheating it's either a bad config or you're firing too often. Bunch of spoiled brats ruined by running MW4 with No Heat/Infinite Ammo checked off.

Why do people not read other people's post in where they explain how and why heat is broken, and instead always say generalities like "heat is supposed to be managed"?

Maybe some questions will forever be left unanswered.

Vermaxx, on 04 December 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Or maybe the 'spoiled brats' from tabletop who realize that the 3049+ tech settings already made heat obsolete. PGI didn't set this game at the 'hardcore' difficulty level of 3025, they chose the carebear Battletech. Clan stuff was there to try to keep people playing BT, speed up games, and make things more appealing to younger players. Like what Games Workshop is doing with 40k.

The neckbeards who prided themselves on playing "real man's battletech" stayed with the 3025 rules. No gauss, no streaks, no XL, no endo, no FF, no DHS, no ER anything. Just you and your mech and the heat gauge.

Hehe, I like it, "real man's battletech". It's a bit pretentious, but I like it.

Personally - I would love to have a 3025 games, but I would also love to have more weapon choices. I like the idea of having ER weapons and Pulse weapons and Ultra or Rotary Autocannons. They just need to be balanced appropriately. Without Battle Value.

Heck, Double Heat Sinks could be fine - 1.25 tons, 3 Crits, and no engine heat sink doubling (that's just cow excrement.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 December 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[FerretGR]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Why do people not read other people's post in where they explain how and why heat is broken, and instead always say generalities like "heat is supposed to be managed"?

Indeed. If you think you wouldn't have to manage heat in the AWS examples I've provided, you're not paying attention. If DHS were 3.0 you'd still have to manage heat in an AWS PPC build. Take the time to do the math, folks.

[Nathan Foxbane]

@ OP: It was tested. It would have been really glaring, but there was a glitch where all engine mounted heat sinks acted as single instead of double so is was not as bad on the lighter chassis. Except lights, it sucked for them. Though when it came to assaults. ER Large Lasers! ER Large Lasers and ER PPCs EVERYWHERE! Oh God, why will they not just shut down?! *curls up in a corner and whimpers*

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 04 December 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

because at the end of a game "turn" 20 double sinks are supposed to have vented 40 of the 45 points of heat 3 ER PPCs generate in a single turn of fire. One turn = movement + one shot - heat dissipation. So firing 3 ERPPCs would leave a 9M with 5-7 points of excess heat(including movement heat) It takes 30 points of heat AFTER sinks have vented to render an automatic shutdown. So 5 turns at an average of 6 points of heat build up per "turn". That is how the heat system is meant to work. A 3.5-4.0 second sink cycle time would give us a good proximity to this.

And that ends this lesson on how Mech combat "turns" iare supposed to work.

If sinks worked as they were created, a 9M would be a dangerous Mech to tangle with

While 5 turns would be an automatic shutdown - At 4 heat (IIRC), you already start taking the first heat penalties. It's typically not the best idea to go that much higher, and the first shutdown chance occurs at 14 heat.

[Stargoat]

People seem to be forgetting that when you have unlocked both levels of the heat management perks, mechs with the 1.4 DHS actually perform /better/ then 2.0 equivalent if they have less DHS than engine heatsinks.

Look at it this way:

2.0 DHS (not including heat perks)

15 DHS; 10 in engine, 5 in chasis = 30 equivalent

1.4 DHS (including heat perks)

10 (20) in engine, 5*1.4 (7) in chassis = 27. 27* 1.15 = 31.05 equivalent.

Now, you could argue that the heat system at its core is broken, which may indeed be the case, but putting DHS at 2.0 would make them /extremely/ powerful. And yes, this doesn't make them 'double' compared to single heatsinks, which also receive the perk bonuses, but they are /still/, in almost every case, an upgrade, over SHS.

How often do you run more DHS than in your engine?

No, heatsinks are fine at the moment. There might be some issues with the heat system its-self. We can see this by trial/stock mechs using single heatsinks being very high-heat, even if canonically they were heat neutral.

Edited by Stargoat, 04 December 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 December 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

While 5 turns would be an automatic shutdown - At 4 heat (IIRC), you already start taking the first heat penalties. It's typically not the best idea to go that much higher, and the first shutdown chance occurs at 14 heat.

5 heat was -1 movement IIRC. the first heat induced drawback. Or was it +1 to Hit mod... been to long since I played TT. at +14 you have gone three Alpha Strikes with the 9M to have a Chance to shut down, not a definite.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 December 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

So what - Single Heat Sinks with those perks also perform better than Single Heat Sinks without?

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

5 heat was -1 movement IIRC. the first heat induced drawback. Or was it +1 to Hit mod... been to long since I played TT.

Movement comes first, that much I remember for sure. I mean, I have the book next t me, but I am too lazy to check whether it was 4 or 5. It was probably 5.

[FerretGR]

Stargoat, on 04 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

People seem to be forgetting that when you have unlocked both levels of the heat management perks

So what? Everyone gets those bonuses. They just increase the baseline: a rising tide raises all boats and all that. It doesn't make a lick of difference to this issue.

Stargoat, on 04 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Now, you could argue that the heat system at its core is broken, which may indeed be the case, but putting DHS at 2.0 would make them /extremely/ powerful.

You say that, but I don't see a single example.

[FiveDigits]

Any resonable Light or Medium Build (engine rating 250 or higher) works with all in-engine DHS at 2.0 disspiation (plus a few surplus 1.4 crapsinks).
Heavies and Assaults have to rely on crapsinks because their weapon loadout requires more than 20 SHS equivalents.

• Lights and Mediums still have to manage their heat. The game is not broken even with them factually working with 2.0 DHS.
  
• Heavies and Assaults underperform and should get the same benefit from DHS.

A DHS is a DHS is a DHS. All arguments against it have been proven null and void.

[Stargoat]

FerretGR, on 04 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

So what? Everyone gets those bonuses. They just increase the baseline: a rising tide raises all boats and all that. It doesn't make a lick of difference to this issue.



You say that, but I don't see a single example.

My point is, making DHS 'actually' double does nothing to solve the problem of a heat system that penalises people who use stock or near-stock builds. Yes, everyone gets the perk bonuses, I'm not denying that (although, consider for a moment a newbie in a trial vs someone in a full custom with both perks unlocked...).

You win on the examples point, i can't be bothered working it out. Actually you win on everything, make them double, i don't care. I run doubles in all of my mechs anyway, because, realistically, there's no tension to use SHS at all. Yay, more power to existing DHS users!

Because that's what it boils down to, doesn't it?

Edited by Stargoat, 04 December 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The current "balance" of weapons... Damage to Tonnage efficiency to be able to fire guns for 20 seconds without overheating, with enough ammo to do it 6 times during a match, and with enough damage in those 20 seconds to cripple or destroy an Atlas.




(What this table doesn't show is how many guns you need, just how much damage you get per ton in those 20 seconds.
For small to mediums, I believe it's between 8 to 5, for PPCs it requires 3, and for Gauss Rifles or AC/20s it's 2.)
This does account for the "free" engine heat sinks for a 250 rated engine. (That means there weight is not included in the effective weight of the weapon system - every mech needs an engine and profits from the engine heat sinks)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 December 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 December 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

So what - Single Heat Sinks with those perks also perform better than Single Heat Sinks without?


Movement comes first, that much I remember for sure. I mean, I have the book next t me, but I am too lazy to check whether it was 4 or 5. It was probably 5.

5. My Stone Rhino Mod (3 Gauss, 2 ERPPs) had to lay off one PPC every 5th turn to stay heat neutral!

[MustrumRidcully]

Stargoat, on 04 December 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

My point is, making DHS 'actually' double does nothing to solve the problem of a heat system that penalises people who use stock or near-stock builds. Yes, everyone gets the perk bonuses, I'm not denying that (although, consider for a moment a newbie in a trial vs someone in a full custom with both perks unlocked...).

You win on the examples point, i can't be bothered working it out. Actually you win on everything, make them double, i don't care. I run doubles in all of my mechs anyway, because, realistically, there's no tension to use SHS at all. Yay, more power to existing DHS users!

Because that's what it boils down to, doesn't it?

I think some of us have given up hope that PGI will ever fix the fundamental problems of their heat system and how it ruins stock configurations. They didn't listen in the Closed Beta. Back then, everyone that didn't believe the system was broke said "Just wait for Double Heat Sinks, everything will be fine". Well, we didn't exactly wait, we made our evaluations, spreadsheets and threads and were ignored. Now DHS are there, things are not fine.

We still have a little bit of hope that maybe, just maybe, "real" DHS can at least fix the resulting weapon imbalances, even if we can still kiss our stock configs goodbye and noobs will be stuck in ovens, ******* many players off before they even considered paying a dime...

Ah, I don't know. Sometimes it looks really bleak.

[Shiney]

The SHS's are only useful in a few builds but at least it's not worlds away from the DHS.

[rgreat]

Well, yeah. I wish it was not a basic design guideline in mechlab to full out all free mech space with heatsinks to be effective.
Be that SHS or DHS.

Edited by rgreat, 04 December 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Krivvan]

Zyllos, on 03 December 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Edit: As an FYI, PGI, DHS is technically suppose to replace SHS (reason why there are no Clan SHS).

It doesn't matter if DHS 'should' replace SHS or not; it's just bad design to obsolete SHS.