263 replies to this topic

[Stargoat]

I hear what you're saying, Mustrum, but... I dunno. Personally, I don't have a lot of trouble managing high-ish heat builds (My favourite being a 4x ac2 cataphract). Certainly not the hottest mech around, but it's up there. My concern with heat is for the inexperienced players, though.

It's a really tough balance because changes to the core heat system affect all users. On DHS, I feel that people are fixated on this idea that they absolutely should be double. I don't share this view on a fundamental level. Some people will never be happy no matter the value so long as it isn't 2.0.

For experienced players, I feel the current heat system /is/ balanced. Some weapons may not be as viable as others when boated, but that's okay. No, it's new players who the heat system really hurts. There are no easy answers. Making DHS unarguably better than SHS is not one of them. There should always be tension between the choices of one setup or another. I don't care about whether, canonically, DHS were supposed to be a straight upgrade from SHS with no tension, because, and get this,

That. Is. Boring.

Edited by Stargoat, 04 December 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

When a 4LL Catapult can be run and gun pretty much full time, then the Heat system is not near as bad as many make it out to be. The Min/Max Alpha queens need to get a grip and then relax their trigger fingers just a little. You 'd be surprised how that really helps with a Mechs Heat management...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 December 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

I guess people just really want their laser boat online.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 04 December 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Jeff K Notagoon]

"Because tabletop" is not a valid balancing reason. Quit using it.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Max Dragon, on 03 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

PLEASE STOP BRINGING THIS UP, this game is not tabletop and, IMHO, should not elude to or try to be tabletop concerning rules, stats, or damage. Table top was a random generated turn based strategic game and this is real time first person "simulation" of what it would be like to be in the cockpit of a mech during that Random generated turn based strategy game. They game will have to be balanced for the "feel" of the game not the words that are written for an entirely different combat system and game that are worlds a part.

If they said it was broken. It was broken. Stop posting your non-tabletop soapbox complaints.

Here is the problem with your statement. I like many people opted to purchase Founders Pack and/or invest time in this game SPECIFICALLY because they advertise it as being "MECHWARRIOR ONLINE".

Please tell me how we are wrong to expect a game based on Battletech/Mechwarrior to actually play and function like Battletech/Mechwarrior??

Honestly I am not sure how that works myself. Exisiting IP, Existing Rules, you build the game to conform to the that Existing IP and those Existng Rules. That is my expectation. Otherwise you aren't play Mechwarrior anymore, you are playing Robowars Online pretending to be Mechwarrior Online. This is kind of like making a game based on Dungeons and Dragon but designing it so there are no Dungeons or Dragons in the game. Kinda silly right?

To be honest, I am surprised more people aren't in open rebellion about how badly they are mangling this game to the point of not really resembling Battletech/Mechwarrior at all.

[Joseph Mallan]

Max Dragon, on 03 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

PLEASE STOP BRINGING THIS UP, this game is not tabletop and, IMHO, should not elude to or try to be tabletop concerning rules, stats, or damage. Table top was a random generated turn based strategic game and this is real time first person "simulation" of what it would be like to be in the cockpit of a mech during that Random generated turn based strategy game. They game will have to be balanced for the "feel" of the game not the words that are written for an entirely different combat system and game that are worlds a part.

If they said it was broken. It was broken. Stop posting your non-tabletop soapbox complaints.

Yeah well not even going into the TT issue, double means:

Quote

1. twice as large, heavy, strong, etc.; twofold in size, amount,number, extent, etc.: a double portion; a new house double the size of the old one.
2. composed of two like parts or members; twofold in form; paired:double doors; a double sink.
3. of, pertaining to, or suitable for two persons: a double room.
4. twofold in character, meaning, or conduct; dual or ambiguous: a double interpretation.

So either make Double sinks twice as effective as single sinks, or make single sinks half as effective as doubles. Where as Garth tried to use Dual instead of Double where as Dual means:

Quote

1. of, pertaining to, or noting two.
2. composed or consisting of two people, items, parts, etc.,together; twofold; double: dual ownership; dual controls on aplane.
3. having a twofold, or double, character or nature.

Again, twice the original. A double sink is twice/double as effective as it's single counter part.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Acehilator]

Krivvan, on 04 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

It doesn't matter if DHS 'should' replace SHS or not; it's just bad design to obsolete SHS.

T2 Tech > T1 Tech. DHS is one of the very few instances where this is really true, so deal with it.
With external 2.0, you cannot even upgrade from 4 LL to 4 ERLL, not to think to 4 ERPPC.
Where is the fu**ing problem?

[SteelPaladin]

Stargoat, on 04 December 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

I hear what you're saying, Mustrum, but... I dunno. Personally, I don't have a lot of trouble managing high-ish heat builds (My favourite being a 4x ac2 cataphract). Certainly not the hottest mech around, but it's up there. My concern with heat is for the inexperienced players, though.

It's a really tough balance because changes to the core heat system affect all users. On DHS, I feel that people are fixated on this idea that they absolutely should be double. I don't share this view on a fundamental level. Some people will never be happy no matter the value so long as it isn't 2.0.

For experienced players, I feel the current heat system /is/ balanced. Some weapons may not be as viable as others when boated, but that's okay. No, it's new players who the heat system really hurts. There are no easy answers. Making DHS unarguably better than SHS is not one of them. There should always be tension between the choices of one setup or another. I don't care about whether, canonically, DHS were supposed to be a straight upgrade from SHS with no tension, because, and get this,

That. Is. Boring.

So... On one hand, I agree w/you. I am a firm proponent that having choices in a game (whether they are gear, or classes, or abilities, etc.) where option X is always better than option Y is bad design. On the other hand, however, I don't know that it is possible w/BattleTech, at least not w/a massive rework of every single item introduced post Helm core.

BattleTech has 3 distinct tech groupings, IS1, IS2, and Clan. IS2 is, for the most part, better than IS1, but makes some token efforts at tradeoffs (DHS being 3x as big as SHS, XL engines making you vulnerable to side torso kills, ER weapons being a lot hotter). Clan tech is better than IS tech of both levels, end of story. There is never a situation where you would want IS tech instead of Clan tech unless C-Bills or BattleValue limits are a factor.

The problems PGI are seeing now trying to keep "everything" viable are just going to compound as more tech comes out. IS2 tech was built around DHS being double SHS. It's why ER weapons feel a serious squeeze right now; they don't have the cooling they were designed for (and balanced against) available, so the end up inefficient and sub-optimal. Every new bit of IS2 that's coming down the pipe in the future is HOT and they're going to have to do a ton of re-balancing to keep them viable.

Clan tech is just going to be a nightmare. Unlike IS2, there wasn't even lip service paid to tradeoffs. Clan tech is better than IS in every way except heat generation, which was fine because it is much better than IS in heat dissipation too. How are they going to redesign Clan gear to keep it "different but viable" against BOTH IS1 and IS2 tech? What are we going to get as the heat dissipation for DHS that only take up 2 crits? 1.2? How are the ridiculously hot Clan weapons going to be anything more than garbage w/cooling so heavily restricted?

The short version is, if PGI wants to keep all items viable and not have any strict upgrades, then they are going to end up having to redesign every bit of tech from here on out almost from scratch.

[wanderer]

Krivvan, on 04 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

It doesn't matter if DHS 'should' replace SHS or not; it's just bad design to obsolete SHS.

Except that DHS were explicitly designed by FASA (now Catalyst) to do so- and the entire 3049+ era of weaponry is in turn designed around them being the "standard" for 'Mech construction. There's supposed to be a distinct and obvious gap between pre-Clan designs and "modern" ones.

Nerfing DHS means you're nerfing huge chunks of the tech to come pre-emptively....oh, except ones that don't worry about heat to begin with. And Clan tech is worse- the entire basis of Clan tech is formed around DHS, not just later-era items. It'll basically jam a stick where the sun don't shine when those come in, and lube will not be an option.

[Steel Claws]

Can this topic just die already. When I see hunch backs shooting 3 ERPPCs, catapults sporting 4 ERL, and Cataphracts shooting 5 ERL - I don't really think heat is an issue anymore. Quit crying for something you are never going to get. We really don't care if it's cannon. This isn't table top. Get over it and move on.

[MustrumRidcully]

TruePoindexter, on 04 December 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I guess people just really want their laser boat online.

I guess some people really didn't read any of the posts on game balance, the analysis on how double heat sinks would affect the game or how the game's heat system has broken any balance between weapns, you haven't seen all those mechs that have mixed hard points and cannot even be used as laser boats, or all the methods how you can have better heat dissipation and better balanced weapons and even have heat neutral mechs (if you really want to build one, which I do not generally advise) that need to manage their heat.

If people ignore all that... Well, I suppose they may come to the logical conclusion that it's all laser boats.

Quote

Nerfing DHS means you're nerfing huge chunks of the tech to come pre-emptively....oh, except ones that don't worry about heat to begin with. And Clan tech is worse- the entire basis of Clan tech is formed around DHS, not just later-era items. It'll basically jam a stick where the sun don't shine when those come in, and lube will not be an option.

Clan tech would still be superior, however. A Clan ER PPC weighs less than an IS PPC, and deals more damage. You still wouldn''t want to drive a standard clan mech configuration with it, but it would still be superior to an Inner Sphere weapon.

Unless they also nerf that.

IMO, they should. I hate clan tech power creep. I don'T eve like Double Heat SInks. I would prefer if PGI systems guy actually would sit down for a few days and work through the item list, and apply some math, spreadsheets and all that to find values for all these weapons and equipment, without changing any weight or crit cost, and balance them all against each other, making all tech a side grade rather than an upgrade.*

But so far PGI has proven incapable of doing such work, and it's just a big shame. Mechwarrior or Battletech rules are not that complicated. You don't even have to deal will alll the stuff that makes other games so complciated to balance - you don't have to deal with area effects, with buffs, with debuffs, with crowd control abilities, with stun and stun locks.

It's so incredibly simple by comparison, and they can't even seem to get that right! If only they'd communicate a bit with us, maybe there is something we are missing, some actual arguments for the way they work, some method to the (seeming) method.


*) Or if he believes we need upgrades, work out a battle value system that can be used for the match-maker so that as you upgrade your tech, you fight others with upgraded tech. THough I really prefer the side-grade method.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 December 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[SteelPaladin]

Steel Claws, on 04 December 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Can this topic just die already. When I see hunch backs shooting 3 ERPPCs, catapults sporting 4 ERL, and Cataphracts shooting 5 ERL - I don't really think heat is an issue anymore. Quit crying for something you are never going to get. We really don't care if it's cannon. This isn't table top. Get over it and move on.

That's complete and utter bull. It is flat out mathematically impossible for even an assault mech to carry enough HS to keep 3 ER PPCs firing solidly at a rate that makes it worthwhile to carry 3 at all. A medium mech toting 3 ER PPCs is either firing them so slowly that it's a total waste of space, or is shutting down so fast and so often that they're target practice.

Either make an argument actually grounded in reality or just shut up.

[Steel Claws]

SteelPaladin, on 04 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

That's complete and utter bull. It is flat out mathematically impossible for even an assault mech to carry enough HS to keep 3 ER PPCs firing solidly at a rate that makes it worthwhile to carry 3 at all. A medium mech toting 3 ER PPCs is either firing them so slowly that it's a total waste of space, or is shutting down so fast and so often that they're target practice.

Either make an argument actually grounded in reality or just shut up.

Sorry no mech should be able to fire heavy weapons continuously.

Several of my team mates and I run a cataphract with 5 larges and it's very easy to do - even on caustic. Hows that for reality for you. I run 2 ERLL on a raven and can fire quite a few alphas before it gets hot. I was running 2 ERPPCs on the same raven with just 10 double HS and was still able to fire frequently enough to kill a cataphract without any real issues. And you can't run an assault with 3? Childs play - want me to continue. One of our team was running 4 large on a hunchie just last night, and while warm, was easily able to do so even on caustic. Just because you can't do something the way you think you should be able to doesn't mean that others can't be successful.

Edited by Steel Claws, 05 December 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[wanderer]

Steel Claws, on 05 December 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Sorry no mech should be able to fire heavy weapons continuously.

Several of my team mates and I run a cataphract with 5 larges and it's very easy to do - even on caustic. Hows that for reality for you. I run 2 ERLL on a raven and can fire quite a few alphas before it gets hot. I was running 2 ERPPCs on the same raven with just 10 double HS and was still able to fire frequently enough to kill a cataphract without any real issues. And you can't run an assault with 3? Childs play - want me to continue. One of our team was running 4 large on a hunchie just last night, and while warm, was easily able to do so even on caustic. Just because you can't do something the way you think you should be able to doesn't mean that others can't be successful.

You can't fire 5 LL's constantly even WITH DHS at 2.0. You can -chain- fire them for continual beaming, but that's it. Quad LL's is enough to cook a 'Phract after 3 4x shots, and that's with 20-21 of the current (engine 2.0, external 1.4) DHS strapped on. A Hunchback is in the same boat.

And amusingly enough, your Raven IS running with 2.0 DHS. The 10 in the engine all run at 2.0, so you're seeing what it'd be like using proper DHS. Does it seem broken with those twin ERLL? Oh, and triple ER PPC's with the max number of DHS on an assault?

That'd be the Awesome-9M. Please, go ahead and show me that incredibly effective fire rate that requires you to fire the ER PPC's one at a time to avoide burning the 'Mech to a crisp- it actually gets more DPS by removing a PPC, using the tonnage to upgrade the engine and add a few more heat sinks instead!

As it stands, the nerfed external sinks basically make a hard road harder for larger 'Mechs, while even a proper 2.0 DHS in all cases won't turn the game into BigLaserWarrior Online- it's about a 10% or so improvement damagewise.

[Jeff K Notagoon]

Viktor Drake, on 04 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Here is the problem with your statement. I like many people opted to purchase Founders Pack and/or invest time in this game SPECIFICALLY because they advertise it as being "MECHWARRIOR ONLINE".

Please tell me how we are wrong to expect a game based on Battletech/Mechwarrior to actually play and function like Battletech/Mechwarrior??

Honestly I am not sure how that works myself. Exisiting IP, Existing Rules, you build the game to conform to the that Existing IP and those Existng Rules. That is my expectation. Otherwise you aren't play Mechwarrior anymore, you are playing Robowars Online pretending to be Mechwarrior Online. This is kind of like making a game based on Dungeons and Dragon but designing it so there are no Dungeons or Dragons in the game. Kinda silly right?

To be honest, I am surprised more people aren't in open rebellion about how badly they are mangling this game to the point of not really resembling Battletech/Mechwarrior at all.

Mechwarrior Online is in the same universe as battletech. And it has giant robots shooting other giant robots. Nothing says that every little variable and stat has to be exactly the same. Nobody whined when the orcs in WoW didn't have 60HP like the orcs in Warcraft.

[Zyllos]

The issue with heat right now is that multiple high heat weapons with high RoF leaves no reason to equip multiple versions of them except for the one time use of alpha strike.

3 ER PPCs with 3.0s CD is too much heat to constantly fire, on any mech. That is fine. But a mech that runs 3 ER PPCs should be able to constantly fire 1 ER PPC and lose heat so that they can have firing patterns. But to even break even with 1 ER PPC, you need 44 SHS or equivalent. There is just no possible way to even break even, much less to be losing heat. So having multiple high heat weapons are just worthless, which are specifically canon builds which do not work.

[MustrumRidcully]

Jeff K Notagoon, on 05 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Mechwarrior Online is in the same universe as battletech. And it has giant robots shooting other giant robots. Nothing says that every little variable and stat has to be exactly the same. Nobody whined when the orcs in WoW didn't have 60HP like the orcs in Warcraft.

But wouldn't people complain a bit if Orcs in WoW would fight with Rapiers and Daggers because the cost of swinging an Axe or Sword for more than 5 seconds is too high and you get better and sustained DPS with Rapiers and Daggers?

[wanderer]

Jeff K Notagoon, on 05 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Mechwarrior Online is in the same universe as battletech. And it has giant robots shooting other giant robots. Nothing says that every little variable and stat has to be exactly the same. Nobody whined when the orcs in WoW didn't have 60HP like the orcs in Warcraft.

But it'd look kinda stupid if they suddenly decided Atlai were 35 tons and moved through the air at 500kph. There's a limit to how much you can bend things before you lose the spirit of the thing in question to modifications.

Single heat sinks work exactly like they do in TT. DHS do not. SHS are what the 3025-era tech was built around as a baseline. DHS are what the 3050-era tech was built around as a baseline. If 3050-era weapons remain an equivalent difference from MWO's 3025-era weapons, SHS should be relative to DHS in the same way- 1.0 vs 2.0. Anything less is, in effect crippling 3050-era weaponry more so than it should be.

[Joseph Mallan]

SteelPaladin, on 04 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

That's complete and utter bull. It is flat out mathematically impossible for even an assault mech to carry enough HS to keep 3 ER PPCs firing solidly at a rate that makes it worthwhile to carry 3 at all. A medium mech toting 3 ER PPCs is either firing them so slowly that it's a total waste of space, or is shutting down so fast and so often that they're target practice.

Either make an argument actually grounded in reality or just shut up.

I have contended with this fallacy already. as it is impossible to keep 3 ER PPCs firing at the present rules. A Game turn should be "Move (constantly)Fire(once) Vent heat". That is a "Turn" in CBT. The mistake is the 10 second turn. A combat turn in the MMO is more like 4 seconds.
9M
Fire 3 ERPPCs=45 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+5
Fire 3 ERPPCs=45+5 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+10

Fire 3 ERPPCs=45+10 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+15

Fire 3 ERPPCs=45+15 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+20
Fire 3 ERPPCs=45+20 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+25
Fire 3 ERPPCs=45+25 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+30 *Shut Down*

One minute of TT combat turns.

Of course this is ignoring movement heat, external environment (Desert, polar, flamers) which would obviously change the dynamic. But I don't notice movement heat so much, and I wanted a simple example for how heat should be working so Awesomes work as intended.



Fire 3 ERPPCs=45 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+5

Fire 2 ERPPCs=30+5 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=0

Fire 3 ERPPCs=45 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+5
Fire 2 ERPPCs=30+5 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=0

Fire 3 ERPPCs=45 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=+5
Fire 2 ERPPCs=30+5 heat
Sinks vent=-40 heat
heat left=0
This is how proper heat management should work!

[Dark Severance]

SteelPaladin, on 04 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Clan tech is just going to be a nightmare. Unlike IS2, there wasn't even lip service paid to tradeoffs. Clan tech is better than IS in every way except heat generation, which was fine because it is much better than IS in heat dissipation too. How are they going to redesign Clan gear to keep it "different but viable" against BOTH IS1 and IS2 tech? What are we going to get as the heat dissipation for DHS that only take up 2 crits? 1.2? How are the ridiculously hot Clan weapons going to be anything more than garbage w/cooling so heavily restricted?

Clan tech is very easy to balance given our current system. If you are an IS, you do not have access to Clan tech. Only Clan players will have access to Clan tech. The balance is in the match making (ie: 5 Can Mechs vs 8-12 IS Mechs) by making the Clan outnumbered in matches by IS players.

There is no way to balance a system where both sides field Clan/IS tech and equal numbers. There also shouldn't be a constant supply line of "Clan tech" that would allow the IS to purchase it in large numbers because every match they are replacing weapons. The way it should be done is through match making.