2028 replies to this topic

[CatHerder]

In addition to what Tarl Cabot says, the *GUARDIAN* ECM blanket effect was pulled out of someone's butt. Guardian ECM *NEVER EVER* had a blanket effect anywhere.

And - for all of you who gripe that this game is non-canon and whatnot: CANON is what keeps the devs from taking the heat generated by PPC down to 2 "just to balance it out", or extending LRM range to 1.5K, or removing the LRM's minrange, etc...

CANON, although it's not fully respected in this game, is a MAJOR guiding factor. If we're going to saw "screw canon" - then I WANT MY OMNIMECHS NOW, AND MY CLAN WEAPONS NOW, AND MY CLAN UPGRADES NOW!

See why it's important?

[Tex Arcana]

From the Dec. 7th News Release:
"We also added ECM to absolutely no complaints".
O Rly?

[StalaggtIKE]

Umbra8, on 07 December 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Drop the effects of ECM to 180 meters, as its supposed to be. If you're outside that range, you can lock and fire. Missiles lose lock at 180 meters. BAP, Artemis, NARC do not function on EMC equipped mechs. No communication to/from friendlies within 180 meters of the jamming mech.

Note NONE of this involves a stealth component or lack of targeting outside of 180 meters. That is a different piece of equipment, stealth armour. You can still lock on and fire guided ordinance outside of 180 meters, it just stops working once the missiles or the mech are inside the bubble. THAT is how Guardian ECM is supposed to work. Implement the TT variant and alot of the issues with how unbalancing ECM is (yes, it is) will go away, and the game will still be enriched.

THIS! Revert ECM to original BT lore. This means decrease all ECM affects to 180 meter bubble.

[DeaconW]

Logaritm, on 09 December 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

ECM is the best thing to happen to this game!

And to all people that say it has made LRM's and streak useless now, i played an DDC Atlas LRM boat yesterday...

Fixed it! The rest of your post was irrelevant as "I love ECM" and "I drive an Atlas D-DC" were all you needed to say...

Edited by DeaconW, 09 December 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[Carmaga]

Earlier I didn't understand why people disconnects or suicides themselves during a match. But now it makes more sense. When the outcome of the match is decided during first couple minutes (or at worst: during a countdown) why bother to fight and go through the trouble. Before the ECM, you couldn't predict the outcome as you can predict now. Mostly the win or lose came by surprise and that made the MWO extremely addicting and exciting game experience -- match after match.

Today, 2 out of 3 games people don't even bother with ECM fights. First team on the cap wins. No matter are you or the enemy in the ECM bubble.

Now if I see a enemy Raven with ECM, I don't even bother to engage. If it attacks me 1vs1 well, there's no point trying to gun it down -- worthless effort. At that point running to enemy cap and logging off keeps me more happy than putting my all efforts to a worthless fight.

If your team does not have ECM, there's no way you will win when LRM/streak boats attacks from the ECM bubble and ECM Ravens come to scavenge the rest.

What I do in these situations (when the outcome is too obvious), I try to find eg. ECM Atlas, go behind him, tag him and hit hard before I die. With this sacrifice I might give a chance to my team (in a pug game) to gun it down and it might even have a positive impact for the match result.

Edited by Carmaga, 09 December 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[EmperorMyrf]

My first impression of ECM was that it's great. After playing 8-man teams, I really don't like what it's done. In order to stay competitive, you need to have tons of ECM on your team. There's been some mention of rock-paper-scissors (RPS) action with ECM and BAP and so on, and that doesn't seem like a good idea. There are plenty of builds that don't use EW equipment and they need to stay perfectly valid. I fear that if a RPS system was implemented with EW equipment, non-EW builds will be left in the dust.

Unless of course participating in the RPS of EW came at a price (a non-monetary one). If each individual EW component brought with it a drawback other than taking up space/weight then I think it will be ok. As it stands, if you're riding in a Raven-3L you're pretty much obligated to take ECM or you're going to gimp yourself and your team. ECM and BAP need to be made so that a pilot will have to make an equal-weight decision on whether or not to take EW equips. ECM might be a little OP with it creating absolute effects such as no lockons and no targeting. If it were made so that lockon time were tripled and detection range were lessened (max range for an enemy to detect an ECM'd mech) then I think that'd be accessible. But to create a drawback for ECM equipped mechs, they should have something happen to them when they have their ECM equipped. Maybe while in cancel, they create a stronger signal that allows others to lock on to them easier and get targeting info. And maybe while in disrupt, their own sensors get reduced, but not as much as the enemy's. This would help prevent ECM stacking, as having too many ECM equipped mechs would reduce the effectiveness of the entire team, and an EW free team could still hold their own against an EW team. In addition, ECM wouldn't be replacing AMS like it does now. You'd still be susceptible LRM fire, and an incoming salvo will make sure all of its missiles hit.

For BAP, it's kinda hard to figure out as it's not in the game, but maybe using BAP will tighten your cone of influence while it's equipped? So instead of having like 180 degrees of sensors it could be reduced to 60, so that you have to essentially keep eye contact with your target, ignoring terrain. So by equipping BAP, you have the choice of removing your peripheral sensors for the extra bonuses in your tunnel sensors. Drawback for the benefit. It should help prevent BAP stacking, as a team that consists of pure BAP will get easily flanked. Just an idea, we'll have to see when it gets implemented.

[Xenok]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 09 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Hey all. Here isan idea. Why dont we balance ecm?

What an idea. Maybe there should be a tradeoff

Rock scissor paper not balance. ECM is fine. We just need effective counters through improvements in BAP, NARC and TAG. Do not nurf ECM just fix the counters to work effectiviely

[Lantry]

MuFasa, on 04 December 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

OK so honestly, this made my DAY, the entire day! The Jenner has been the most ridiculously OP mech for its tonnage since the start of the game. Horrible net code, the lag shield the bumping of its jump jets has made it way more powerful than it should be by its weight class. It's been the "flavor of the month" for quite some time because game mechanics gave it way more survivability than it should have had. It's the mech of choice for the OMG learn to A1M noob crowd. Now you have mechs in the class that can compete with you, and you're tears are flowing I LOVE IT... stuff like that will fuel my raven for the next month

If ECM allowed Ravens to 'compete with' Jenners, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem is that the Raven is now in the position that the Jenner used to be in. It's not balanced, they just switched places on the OP spectrum.

[Konner Duko]

ok havn't posted anyhting on this subject but at this time ecm needs to be looked at. there is no readon for the brawling build atlas dc/ to be able to just charge in and not be targetd at all. once tyou are inside the bubble it will negate lock but when you are still outside at 500m you should be able to lock on with a visual. this is not happening.

2nd point is that at thsi time if you are not in a mech that can rock an ecm then you are a detriment to the team and you are thus getting blown out be the ecm swarm when they close. this this is fixed there is no supprissive fire by lrm's. i woul d rather be back playig with all you saw was lrm's. right now you cannot do anything with them because youcannot get a lock on anything because of ecm. this needs to change imo. all this has turned into is pack the biggest pujnch run in and whatever team has the most ecm's wins

this corrected the streak cats but all they did was move to srm 4 or 6's that need no lock. issues are still there and thus causing exploits to the game that is not fun at all.

all ecm has really done is made lasers back to the forefront in order that you only need visual to hit and unlimited ammo means you can constantly fire at enemies and not have to think about anyhting but prodcing the biggest damage amount possible.

[Inveramsay]

Right, I thought the ECM was fine until I bought my raven 3L. This thing is untouchable with a 280xl engine. The umbrella effect is probably a bit too good. If it was 45m it would be a lot more realistic I think

At least streak cats seems to have gone which is a good thing

Edited by Inveramsay, 09 December 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Thatguyoverthere]

ECM is fine in its current state. What there needs to be is a wider selection game-modes. It'd be a pity to put many penalties on ECM so that the game is "balanced" for all mechs. Some mechs should be obliterated by others. ECM should help prevent missile lock. The items are fine, but the single game-mode constricted to following three paths in between two bases is what restricts much variety. I'd like to see some terrain control / base defense maps, maybe with a terrain advantage, as well as many more players.

The idea of "balancing" everything isn't any fun. It eventually leads to people using the same weapon all the time because it's "just as good" as anything else. Problems with ECM Commandos? Try an ECM Raven, counter it, and blow it up! ECM hasn't made a difference in who wins or not for me. Skills of the players do.

[ICEFANG13]

No that is very stupid, why would everyone use the same weapon if they were just as good as everything else, everyone would use their favorites. No one wants everything to be just as good either, we want some things better in certain situations, but there is never, ever, ever a situation where you do not want ECM over even a heatsink and a 5 on your engine. The cost (in terms of mech-lab) to effectiveness is way out of proportion.

Say the A/C-20, sure I want one on my Cicada 3M, but I can't do that, not without a large sacrifice, unlike ECM, where every mech that can, should run ECM, and if every mech could, every mech would. Even you yourself said, if you have a problem with ECM, use ECM to counter it. That is just terrible design.

[DeaconW]

Thatguyoverthere, on 09 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

ECM is fine in its current state.

Pls refer to my previous post on this subject: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1568209

Quote

The idea of "balancing" everything isn't any fun. It eventually leads to people using the same weapon all the time because it's "just as good" as anything else.

Um, No. That is what IMBALANCE does...leads to everyone using the same thing, like ECM right now. Unless you are saying that people INDIVIDUALLY arn't allowed to specialize in a particular mech type and playstyle (which actually results in DIVERSITY) and still be successful if they use good tactics because the game is BALANCED. If you are saying that then I imagine you also want sports teams where there are no specialists and everyone has to play everyone else's role equally well?

[StandingCow]

You know, one thing I have noticed, and I am sure others have? The lack of medium mechs on the battlefield since ECM came around.

Seems groups are now lights/heavy/assault, with the emphasis on assaults. Groups seem much less balanced.

Personally I feel a few things should be done:
Take ECM off the DDC. Keep it to lights and mediums.

Why do only certain variants of the raven, etc not have it? I know that follows tabletop, but in not giving it to all, Ravens for example, why would anyone ever play a non-ECM raven?

Am I totally off in thinking this way?

[ICEFANG13]

I agree completely, I'd rather run a Jenner like I used to, but its so inferior to the Raven-3L, and the 2X-4X are just terrible. Personally I'd remove ECM from the Atlas, and give it to the 4 ballistic Cicada (which is already worthless, but it can use it). The Commandos should all be able to use the ECM, and they are so squishy that even with the lack of SSRM usage, even if they keep it that way, its pretty fair, and all Ravens should too (I mean the 4X and 2X are terrible) and I would limit them of the Ravens to a 250 engine or close to that (that would help the 4X and 2X, and nerf the 3L). They will be useful, moving pretty quick, with ECM, and Jenners should not get ECM at all, but have the armor (commando) and speed (raven) advantage.

I'm sure that's just me, but that balance seems to make perfect sense to me. ECM needs a tone down, but the 3L is the worst part of it, and the 2D is pretty bad too, but still weak enough that you can kill it with some good laser usage.

ECM, doesn't need a huge hit with the nerfbat, but the idea that ECM should be the only thing to counter it, that makes no sense at all.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 09 December 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[RobertWiley]

Rakash, on 09 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm not reading all that. ECM is currently ********. Here's the changes:

1) ECM does not block target acquisition or weapon locks for any mech at any range. LRMs and Steak SRMs have OPTICAL GUIDANCE components that are not subject to Guardian, and Guardian never prevented these systems from functioning in TT.
a) Targets in ECM may be acquired, but only chassis information (Atlas) is available. No model, weapon, armor data. Artemis and NARC doesn't function in the field, so no help there.

2) ECM doesn't take my friendlies off HUD if I have direct LOS to them. Doesn't take hostiles off unless they're shut down. I can STILL SEE YOU. In fact, just stop making Guardian ECM into a combined Null Sig / Chameleon system. It's not THAT cool.

3) Should be mountable on at least one of every light mech, every Raven model, a medium or two, and leave it on the DC, you whining *******. It's a HQ mech. When this whole thing kicks off and people start reinstalling their Command Consoles too, DCs are gonna be some seriously underarmed Assault mechs. Great targets.

Rakash has the right idea. ECM is the counter for Streak, Artemis IV, and Narc, simply that. The idea is that missile boats that carry those systems now lose the advantage of their advanced systems and reduces them to the basic model. TAG should work as normal, being that you would have to get close to the target to use it. ECM should be availible to all missle boats varients, not just the chassis. It should be the counter for BAP as well, nothing more than that.
This hidding the mech and those around it is BS...as for point 1a. the enemy icon indictor is all that needs to be seen but at the current range of detection (ie you can see where on the map they are within range, but not what they are).
I hope that this fix gets done soon or missile boats will only be seen at museums, lol.

[GazT4R]

I'd take it off the Atlas D-DC. It's already a hugely powerful Mech.
Keep ECM for the lighter Mech, the ones that Scout, not the Massive Brawler.
If an Atlas wants ECM cover then it should have to work with a Scout and therefore sacifice the speed and usefulness of that Scout in it's primary role to gain the ECM cover.

If a Missle boat requires a lock, then a light would have to scout out and counter the other ECM, to gain a long term lock solution or if they don't have ECM but do have a TAG then tagging it to gain a window of opportunity to lock and fire a salvo.

Edited by GazT4R, 09 December 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[TheSteelRhino]

The problem with ecm is there is no negative to it

Lrms have a minimum range and explosive ammo

Erppc have heat. Lasers have heat and u hve to keep them on target

If u want to be invisible with ecm then u should have to turn off your own active sensors and radar. ( u could still use tag as its a targeting laser). If u have active radar on u should show up as an unidentified target as opfor mechs should see you radar. Partial protection but u are "seen" due to your active transmission

Bap should Help but not obliterate ecm protection. Bap should detect at 550 meters( reduced range but not nullified by ecm)

Oh yeah. You want to fire lrm or streaks while under under ecm. U got to radiate to do it. And that negates the protection. U can be locked on at that point

[Balkwand]

Walking around in plain sight having no need to fear LRMS is just stupid.

On the other hand I can understand, that LRMS and SSRMS were too strong before. To deal with that I have some suggestions:

ECM could work as a sort of scrambler for mechs near the ECM.

• If you are in the range of an enemy ECM you cannot target another mech, unless there is a friendly ECM present to counter it.
  
• Spotting through scouts shouldn't work either.
  
• This means: If you are outside the enemy ECM range and have a lock on the target, the missiles should work.

Btw the rules say:
"It could seek targets like a BAP or hide the unit mounting it like a Guardian.The use of an ECM is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems."
This means it does not totally kill the targeting system of SSRMS and LRMS, it just can be used as a counter measure against TAG and NARC, making the SSRMS and LRMS less efficient. So the ECM as it is is rather OP..

[Tolkien]

In my experience the ECM is just too good right now. Now granted I used to run a catapult C1 - you know a mech that has LRMs as its primary weapon system.

In the past things have been done to reduce the effectiveness of LRMs, such as making a continuous target lock all the way in necessary for a 4-10 second flight time, while also letting any mech field an AMS. This was a soft counter though in that it didn't block LRMs or SRMs it just reduced their effectiveness.

Next they added a warning to pilots that they had incoming missiles, which really helped people to know when they had to duck behind terrain. At this point, a pilot who knew how to hug terrain or duck behind a building when LRMs were incoming was difficult to do any substantial damage to.

I didn't mind this though, as I found my biggest niche was in putting the hurt on the circle strafing jenners/commandos that were hard as hell to hit with unguided weapons, while also not doing much damage to enemy snipers, but at least forcing them to duck for cover from time to time (had to be really careful though as they could gauss me while I lined up my shot, and my rounds would probably slam harmlessly into their hill).

Now with ECM in the game I have to say that LRMs feel like a weapon system without a place on the field.

Let's review what this means for a mech like the catapult C1 that has LRMs as primary weapon systems.

1) If the enemy has ECM cover, I cannot target them unless I am between 180m and 200m range. This means that I have a 20 metre thin ribbon of space where I can do something about them.

2) If I am inside their bubble they have only to close 30 more metres to again defeat the missiles.

3) Assuming I can somehow get into that sweet 20-50m wide range sliver (2-5% of the weapon`s total range), the ECM doubles my lock on time.

4) The ECM I think also disables Artemis, meaning that in point 3 I should have said it what, quadrules the lock on time?

I have heard some say that TAG is needed to get around these limitations which is fair enough but let's look into what this will mean.

A) The TAGing teammate will have to hold the dot on the target for long enough for me to i - notice that there is a valid target, ii - lock on, iii- launch (if you don't lock on before you launch your missiles often go ploughing into a random surface 30 feet away) iv - last through the up to 10 second flight time of the missiles.

Stay out of the 180m communications jamming range....

C) live to tell about it.

I don't know, but if a teammate can keep a tag on someone for that long, they could do more damage with some pulse lasers than the LRM volley will do when it gets there.


It looks a lot to me like the ECM is a hard counter to LRMs and Streak SRMs, whose only hard counter is a TAG system. The TAG system requires active and skillful application, while the ECM is automatic.

ECM is a hard counter to other ECM systems (are you kidding me!?).

ECM hard counters NARC - a system which is bulkier, heavier, and has the vulnerability of ammo - again are you kidding me?

And all of this against a weapon system (LRMs) that already had numerous soft counters - terrain and AMS.


As a final thought in this rant, I really dislike hard counters as they don't make room for personal taste or circumstance, like those strange people who field machine guns because they like the sound they make (only reason I can think of that they do it). My system despite well exceeding the suggested requirements still has frame rate craters from 40+ down to less than 9 at random. This makes brawling really bad for me, and lag makes lights very hard to hit since I live in Europe. I play support since I like to be useful for my team even if my game does not run particularly well. Adding a hard counter against the one weapon system that tolerated lag and framerate glitches some of us suffer from has really made me scratch my head.