2028 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Zenner, on 13 December 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

The one time I do have a problem, is if the other team has a lot more ECM than we do...plain and simple.

Understand and agree with most of your other points but this statement you made really says it all...no matter what you do the force with more ECM will most likely win.

[Tolkien]

Elkarlo, on 13 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I know the Table Top Rules Well, i have them as Paperback and read them and i was reffering to the Double Blind Spotting rules as PGI uses them for Sensor locking ( the 540 Meters are not out of Air, they are in the Double Blind rules, and also how ECM effects it it would merrely reduce the Locking range of a Mech with Standard sensors down to 180 Meters... and a Mech Equipt with BaP down to 360 Meters... ) but they are not at the ECM Rules but at the Double Blind Sensor rules...

Nevertheless, it won't cure the ECM Base Race Problem, and that's i am working on. As this Problem is more severe then anything else, i use by myself a LRM boat and have no big issues killing ECM equipt Mechs... but the ECM Base race is simply annoying. And only implemention of 360 Degree MAD sensors would allow to implement ECM correctly,,,

Could you provide a page reference and book reference for those? I have never seen the black and white text that indicates that ECM prevents LRMs from working when you have LOS to the enemy.


Additionally go read this post> edit: corrected links
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1590561
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1591436


You'll see that if you carefully read the rules sensors appear to not be affected unless you are inside that 180m bubble.

Edited by Tolkien, 13 December 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Elkarlo]

Tolkien, on 13 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Could you provide a page reference and book reference for those? I have never seen the black and white text that indicates that ECM prevents LRMs from working when you have LOS to the enemy.

Have a little problem as i got the German Issues but:
Maximum Tech: P.53
Advanced Rules Double Blind games.

Paragraph
"Aufklärungsphase"
Visuell Range:
Darkness: 5 Hexes
Daylight: 60 Hexes
Dawn: 15 Hexes
Fog/Rain/Smoke: 10 Hexes

Sensorig Ranges:
Bap: Short: 1-12 Hexes Medium: 13-24 Hexes Longrange: 25-36 Hexes
Mechsensors: Short: 1-8 Hexes Medium: 9-16 Hexes Long: 17-24 Hexes

Followed by the ECM rules to translate them fast: Gecm guarded Mechs can only be
Sensor spottet on Short range.


Only spottet Mechs can be shot at everthing else is blind fire.

Atm PGI only allows shooting at Sensorspottet Mechs not on Visuell spottet Mechs with Lockon weapons.

And i have to correct me, Maximum Tech is a newer work then the Tactical Handbuch i used to reffer so the Mechsensor range "short" has increased to 240 Meters.
a Hex is 30 Meters

Megamek translate this rules Quite well into the same, so German and English Rules should be the Same.

Double Blind Rules

http://www.sarna.net...ble-Blind_Rules

They are only in Tatical Handbook and Maximum Tech

Quote

The ruleset includes slight changes to the turn sequence and provides special rules for certain equipment such as Active Probes and ECM systems.

Edited by Elkarlo, 13 December 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Not a Number]

Elkarlo, on 13 December 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

[...]

The ECM is intended as a Possibility to reduce the Capability of spotting enemy Mechs.
We are currently using Double Blind TT rules for enemy detection on the MAP, adapting them for ECM correctly will still mean that ECM covered Mech can walk past your nose at 200 Meters without you getting the nice red soft Blip on your Map.
(180M without and 360m with BaP, Double Blind rules)

[...]

It has been confirmed by a number of people that under double-blind rules, spotting is only ever affected if the spotting mech is inside the 180M ECM bubble. It's on page 10 of the Tactical Handbook (English version, the last two sentences discussing ECM systems).

Tabletop ECM can only affect systems outside of its bubble when they are used to direct weapons inside or through it. Yet in MWO it also affects sensors.

[Tolkien]

Elkarlo, on 13 December 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Have a little problem as i got the German Issues but:
Maximum Tech: P.53
Advanced Rules Double Blind games.

Paragraph
"Aufklärungsphase"
Visuell Range:
Darkness: 5 Hexes
Daylight: 60 Hexes
Dawn: 15 Hexes
Fog: Rain: smoke: 10 Hexes

Sensorig Ranges:
Bap: Short: 1-12 Hexes Medium: 13-24 Hexes Longrange: 25-36 Hexes
Mechsensors: Short: 1-8 Hexes Medium: 9-16 Hexes Long: 17-24 Hexes

Followed by the ECM rules to translate them fast: Gecm guarded Mechs can only be spottet on Short range.


Only spottet Mechs can be shot at everthing else is blind fire.

Atm PGI only allows shooting at Sensorspottet Mechs not on Visuell spottet Mechs with Lockon weapons.

And i have to correct me, Maximum Tech is a newer work then the Tactical Handbuch i used to reffer so the Mechsensor range "short" has increased to 240 Meters.
a Hex is 30 Meters

Megamek translate this rules Quite well into the same, so German and English Rules should be the Same.

Thank you for clarifying. It still seems to indicate 4 big problems with ECM.

1) When any single mech sees an enemy, all mechs on the same side 'see' it, since you control all your pieces. Right now ECM breaks this. Regardless of whether we can fire guided weapons at the enemy or not, we should know where they are (situational awareness is robbed by having N-1 ECMs if the enemy has N).

2) On tabletop BAP still works to increase spotting range as long as the mech using BAP is not inside the ECM bubble.

3) ECM prevents LOS weapon fire, including LRMs because of bad implementation by PGI. This is one bad design choice bandage (guided LRMs) overlapping another bad design choice bandage (ECM).

3) ECM in its current form is still broken broken broken from a balance perspective in that it is allowing players to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs (and stacks so even worse...)
LRM locks (shouldn't be needed but are)
SRM locks (shouldn't be needed but are)
general targeting info (should not interfere with red dots at all if a single friendly has LOS)
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15

I have not found anyone arguing that ECM is balanced when they read that list, only propose other awkward bandages like limiting to 1ECM per side... why not just balance ECM, and then go balance LRM and SSRM.

[Elkarlo]

As i say i think personally that ECM should be nerfed and putt back to the FULL TT Rules...
and nothing more.

But it won't prevent the ECM Base Races, which are a bigger Problem IMO.

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/


And Full TT Rules would allow SSRM Lockon !
As the Sensor range would be 240 for Lockon Weapons !
And 360 Meters with BaP so that a BaP equipt Scout can stay out of the
Bubble and pass Target informations to others...


But it won't inhibit the Enemy team to sneak around the others and simply Base Capture..
and thats the biggest Problem ATM because we have 50% of games without fight.

Edited by Elkarlo, 13 December 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[Tolkien]

Elkarlo, on 13 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

As i say i think personally that ECM should be nerfed and putt back to the FULL TT Rules...
and nothing more.

But it won't prevent the ECM Base Races, which are a bigger Problem IMO.

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/


And Full TT Rules would allow SSRM Lockon !
As the Sensor range would be 240 for Lockon Weapons !

I believe SSRM and LRM would still need an adjustment (nerf?) but they should have no trouble firing on an ECM carrying or adjacent mech.

The system now that requires LRM locks is in itself causing big problems.

And I think it would prevent the ECM base rushes since you would again be able to see the enemy on the map - remember per tabletop rules if one mech sees an enemy all mechs 'know' where it is, since they are all controlled by the same commander.

Edited by Tolkien, 13 December 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Elkarlo]

I think they need to redo some work on the ECM very fast..

because the ECM Races are killing the Fun and the Holidays are comming...
and loosing the Fun and playtime in the Holidays... will be extremly bad for MWO.

[ohtochooseaname]

DeaconW, on 13 December 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

If you do it that way(match variants, not actual numbers of ECM) your prescription is even LESS likely to be successful. In addition you would still almost completely eliminate the play of other variants of that type of chassis in the game...there would be zero incentive to drive them and there would be peer pressure in every game ala "Man, you brought a Raven 3L with no ECM! You just screwed us!". I know whenever I see an ECM variant with no ECM I immediately think, "What is that person doing?"...right before I circle-Streak him to death...

I agree ECM is less prevalent today than a week ago, but I still see it a lot, definitely not as low as 50%. But that is just my window view. PGI certainly has the data and i hope they are paying attention.

[

Sometimes, they're using it in counter mode (there is no visible indication for an ECM in counter mode other than that someone's ECM has been countered). And yeah, running an ECM variant without an ECM would screw your team...so team mates would probably start TK'ing them until they stop. This plan wouldn't eliminate non ECM variants at all unless everyone on one team ran ECM's: non 3L Raven just has to be paired up with a light. A 3L could be paired up with a DDC as long as there were corresponding lights/assaults to match things up class-wise. This isn't that complicated of a system, but is certainly much more complicated than the current one.

[Tolkien]

ohtochooseaname, on 13 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Sometimes, they're using it in counter mode (there is no visible indication for an ECM in counter mode other than that someone's ECM has been countered). And yeah, running an ECM variant without an ECM would screw your team...so team mates would probably start TK'ing them until they stop. This plan wouldn't eliminate non ECM variants at all unless everyone on one team ran ECM's: non 3L Raven just has to be paired up with a light. A 3L could be paired up with a DDC as long as there were corresponding lights/assaults to match things up class-wise. This isn't that complicated of a system, but is certainly much more complicated than the current one.

Eventually they will probably have to implement some sort of a battle value system that will have a similar effect to what you are suggesting - restrict cheese builds and combinations of equipment to sensible values. Granted, battle value was never perfect on the tabletop and gets really interesting when you start mixing tech dates etc. but starting with broken equipment like ECM that turns off entire weapon families (LRM) is probably not a good place to start from.

EDIT> There appears to be some sort of attack underway on mwomercs.com - I just got this warning when trying to load this thread.


Except this URL warned about is cbkwwnl.ns02.us

Edited by Tolkien, 13 December 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[C4RNAGE]

So nerfing is the only option.
Sugestions:
-make increased heat when using ECM
-if somone got ECM(or in range) but is visible manual targeting shuld be possible
-maybe like charge time ECM 1 min charge, 1 min works when you switch ON,all will think before use his ECM time, more team work
-or maybe max 1 ECM per 4 mechs, so max 2 ECM's in team

Combination of few or one of this will make difference.

[Opus]

Tolkien, on 13 December 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Eventually they will probably have to implement some sort of a battle value system that will have a similar effect to what you are suggesting - restrict cheese builds and combinations of equipment to sensible values. Granted, battle value was never perfect on the tabletop and gets really interesting when you start mixing tech dates etc. but starting with broken equipment like ECM that turns off entire weapon families (LRM) is probably not a good place to start from.

EDIT> There appears to be some sort of attack underway on mwomercs.com - I just got this warning when trying to load this thread.


Except this URL warned about is cbkwwnl.ns02.us

Yup, I saw the same thing

[Not a Number]

Elkarlo, on 13 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

As i say i think personally that ECM should be nerfed and putt back to the FULL TT Rules...
and nothing more.

But it won't prevent the ECM Base Races, which are a bigger Problem IMO.

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/


And Full TT Rules would allow SSRM Lockon !
As the Sensor range would be 240 for Lockon Weapons !
And 360 Meters with BaP so that a BaP equipt Scout can stay out of the
Bubble and pass Target informations to others...


But it won't inhibit the Enemy team to sneak around the others and simply Base Capture..
and thats the biggest Problem ATM because we have 50% of games without fight.

I'll repeat, tabletop ECM under double-blind rules does not affect spotting if the spotting mech is outside of the ECM bubble (180M or 6 hexes). Check the Tactical Handbook; it should be in your German edition as well. It's the very last thing that's said about the spotting phase.

"... To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM system. This radius is not affected by LOS."

If MWO followed this rule those ECM base races you dislike so much should not be a problem anymore either, because the enemy ECM mech(s) would have to be very close to you to reduce your sensor range. They could still hide behind a hill, but they'd have a much harder time messing with your electronics.

I'm starting to think, with all the people misinterpreting double-blind ECM rules, that maybe PGI misinterpreted them as well.

Edited by Not a Number, 13 December 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[Electric Mayhem]

Just an update on my initial impression based on further play experience:

ECM has still borked the game, largely in 8v8 where the 5 Atlas, 3 Raven/Cicada opposition team has become standard. Since an ECM Counter can only negate a single ECM Disrupt (and only inside 180m) the "balance" provided is completely illusory.

I'm tired of fps/lag shield+ECM=nigh invulnerable scouts.

Quick fixes: nerf ECM effects outside 180m (should slow lock and detection, but not prevent) and make Beagle actually DO something.

[ohtochooseaname]

C4RNAGE, on 13 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

So nerfing is the only option.
Sugestions:
-make increased heat when using ECM
-if somone got ECM(or in range) but is visible manual targeting shuld be possible
-maybe like charge time ECM 1 min charge, 1 min works when you switch ON,all will think before use his ECM time, more team work
-or maybe max 1 ECM per 4 mechs, so max 2 ECM's in team

Combination of few or one of this will make difference.

I actually really like it in its current implementation if it is a turn on/off thing, especially if it were possible to pulse it. It increases the strategy to using it. Plus, that doesn't stop my favorite thing to do, which is, turn it off, so lrm's are incoming on me while I am circle strafing someone, then turn it back on, and run directly away...about half of the LRM's will hit them if I do it right (got someone to team kill a 3M Cicada this way, who should have known better and had his ECM in counter) Currently, if someone gets a lock, and you turn on ECM, the missiles turn ballistic, so it's a great way to get someone to waste LRM ammo if you're moving and/or get them to hit a teammate. "Oh my, you have a lock on me while I sit here next to your friend friend, whatever shall I do?"
ECM is OP when people have no idea how to use it....it's ridiculously OP when they do.

[40oz to Freedom]

I gotta say i LOVE this ECM! I use to get completely smashed when I ran through a group of enemies with my light mech, now I can run into an entire 8 man team and laugh as they blow eachother up with their lasers and ACs because they can't get missile lock on me, or shoot me! My first game with ECM I cored a Streak boat, a couple jenners, an Atlas and 3 Centurions all with my Commando! Then I went on to cap the base as the remaining team members hid from me. The next 15 games I just waltzed in and captured the base at the very beginning for the lulz. Most balanced thing ever to be added to a game ever in the history of ever!

[Vasces Diablo]

How about this as a fix:

Make ECM something the pilot triggers that has a cool down.

Would work something like this:

The pilot has an indicator that shows when any allied mech in 180m has been locked onto. The pilot triggers the ECM and it "pulses". Breaking locks and sensor detection on the bubble for some amount of time (10 sec for example). This generates heat as if a weapon was fired and is followed by and cool down on the unit.

This would make it more active in terms of the pilots job, and I think is would add tacticle variation to the game. Plus just more fun for everyone involved.
Thoughts?

Edited by Vasces Diablo, 13 December 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Oy of MidWorld]

It just got a little more... Mechwarrior. ECM is pretty great. Less cheesebuilds, more teamplay. Missiles still work, but boating them is not adviseable anymore. Love how it is limited to certain chassis (and thank god the Jenner is excluded).

Edited by Oy of MidWorld, 13 December 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[SilentWolff]

ECM has not evolved the game, it has de-evolved it.
I am speaking strictly from an 8 man standpoint, coordinated team games. People who post on here that ECM is fine, quite frankly have limited 8 man experience against the good teams and dont know what they are talking about.


ISSUE:
The game has de-evolved to whichever team has more ECM's wins. The only proof you need is to actually play 8 mans against the good teams, they will run nothing but Atlas DC's and Raven's (with the occasional Cicada or Commando). Why is this? Because there is currently no counter to ECM. (sorry, TAG currently is no counter) So whats the biggest issue with that? The ability to shut down peoples SSRM's, but to be able to spam your own SSRM's, it is game breaking. Its the single biggest problem with ECM right now.
LRM's also are useless.

SOLUTIONS:
#1 Limit the amount of ECM's that can be effective in the 180 meter bubble. I suggest 2 max.

#2 Make the Beagle Active Probe actually have an active ability like the ECM, to counter its ability. Perhaps with its own active bubble.

#3 Increase the range of TAG AND allow the TAG effect to stay on the target 5-10 seconds after it has been tagged.

[steelblueskies]

SilentWolff, on 13 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

ECM has not evolved the game, it has de-evolved it.
I am speaking strictly from an 8 man standpoint, coordinated team games. People who post on here that ECM is fine, quite frankly have limited 8 man experience against the good teams and dont know what they are talking about.


ISSUE:
The game has de-evolved to whichever team has more ECM's wins. The only proof you need is to actually play 8 mans against the good teams, they will run nothing but Atlas DC's and Raven's (with the occasional Cicada or Commando). Why is this? Because there is currently no counter to ECM. (sorry, TAG currently is no counter) So whats the biggest issue with that? The ability to shut down peoples SSRM's, but to be able to spam your own SSRM's, it is game breaking. Its the single biggest problem with ECM right now.
LRM's also are useless.

SOLUTIONS:
#1 Limit the amount of ECM's that can be effective in the 180 meter bubble. I suggest 2 max.

#2 Make the Beagle Active Probe actually have an active ability like the ECM, to counter its ability. Perhaps with its own active bubble.

#3 Increase the range of TAG AND allow the TAG effect to stay on the target 5-10 seconds after it has been tagged.

or we could try actually being canonical about tag, bap, "sensors" and ecm, not to mention other affected systems before going further afield with bandaids.