2028 replies to this topic

[POWR]

Knoxic, on 04 December 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

It seems as though PGI either has no internal testing program or that team only tests to see if things are working at a basic level. If they had a competent testing team there is no way that ECM wouldv'e gotten introduced in the fashion it is today. Also it seems as though PGI overcompensates when making changes. The LRM debacle, for example, was unreal. They litterally went from being ok, to way overpowered, to useless, to about right, all the way back to now being completely useless again. It seems they do not keep track of the changes they make and simply go from one extreme to another. A simple log of changes they make to the game would solve so many of their balancing issues. A teamate of mine described it best when he said "If they would just quit putting the fat guy on one end of a see-saw and then just putting enough weight on the other side to balance it we would be ok. But they just keep moving the SOB back and forth."

Anyway the game state at them moment isn't fun if you run anything other than one of the ECM Variants and are on an Atlai team. There is no longer any strategy or variety, it's only "RUSH ALL THE ATLAS. Roll head on keyboard. WIN."

You are the beta tester, you are supposed to test if this is a good thing or not. The introduction of a gamechanger like this is going to have some ramifications. And you're not going to see a resolution of this on day one. Sure, everyone will now load up an atlas and go "lol" but then those guys are going to get stomped by someone doing a more intelligent teambuild, and the game will change again.. Man, these kneejerk reaction posts are just, silly, aren't they?

Oh, and don't anyone come back with "but we're not beta testers", cause you are. This is what an actual beta is about. Trying out things, finding where they fit in and balancing them based on actual game feedback instead of endless theory crafting. Refreshing and brave move by PGI. Giving them flak for it is silly.

[Bloodfeat]

SicksGunz, on 04 December 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Good thing no one saw this coming!

Oh man that was good,
Fell off of my chair laughing
Well done Sir.

[Barakus]

I think ECM is a bit over the top ATM. The fact that in completely cancels the other electronic warfare tools is realy dumb and arbitary in my opinion. Just as dumb as say Beagle completely canceling ECM. My suggestion is for ECM to nulify the bonuses provided by NARC, Beagle and Aremis BUT alow these to cancel or reduce some of the effects of ECM.

IE Artemis would not provide the additional accuracy (tighter missle group) it usualy does but would allow the equipped mech to burn through the ECM to obtain missile lock a bit faster and futher. Something like half way between full ECM reduction and no ECM. Simmilar for beagle and NARC.

[DegeneratePervert]

I did think it was kinda weird that an assault can equip the ECM. I think they should've kept it to light mechs only. Well, that and the Cicada.

[Capriocorpus]

Hi been playing since closed beta and this is the first time I've posted but i have a couple of suggestions that might help balance the ECM. The problem with the ECM is that while we have hard counters for it in the form of tag and ECM set to counter mode we don't have any soft counters for it. For those that don't know the differnce between a hard and soft counter pretty much if you go up against someone who is using a hard counter to what you're using barring a miracle you are goin to lose, while if you go up againt someone using a soft counter its harder to fight them but you still have a chance to beat them.

I think the perfect soft counters to the ECM could be the BAP and the Narc. The BAP can be made a soft counter to the ECM by extending the 20m ring, that rests between 180m-200m and allows you to target ECM protected mechs like they werent protected, up to somewhere between 100m to 200m so that you can target them between 180m to 280m or 380m when you have it equiped. However there should be a 1 to 3 sec delay before you can target target them and you have to keep them in your LOS the entire time or it resets the count.

How the Narc can be made a soft counter is by if you are able to hit an ECM protected mech with like 2 to 3 Narcs the Narced mech will be able to be targeted like it was Narced but not ECM protected. However seeing as how the Narc effect lasts only 15 secs, they say they are buffing this so this suggestion might make the Narc unbalenced, every new Narc could increase the time remaining by 5 secs or so.

If these 2 suggestions are implemented it would allow for more variety, tactical options, give people a reason to equip Narc, and hopefully Balance the ECM.

[Zwietracht]

never saw a team with more then one ecm atlas, had several rounds yesterday with not one ecm mech, also saw a lot of lrms around, even some new variations of streak cats (4 ssrm +tag) ... sometimes i wonder if we are really playing the same game.

but actually you guys played just one or two rounds and then made up your judgement...

Edited by Zwietracht, 06 December 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Fane, on 05 December 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Ok I really like the new ECM. Despite the fact that I am a Cat pilot and now have to change my load out so I am not helpless to an ECM mech. My one complaint is either give me a manual firing button for LRM's and Streaks OR allow TAG or NARC's to counteract a ECM. I actually like the idea of a NARC counter acting it as not only does this make sense, but also fast little mechs would be hard as hell to hit with them.

Is TAG not countering ECM already? The problem might be that most spotters tend to get in close, at which point their comms get jammed as well, so you won't get the data. The devs said they would release a patch that increases TAG range, but I believe this has not gone live yet.

I also read on another page that you can already dumb-fire LRMs, but I never tried this in my own Cat so far...

Iron Jim, on 06 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

I just watched a Raven slaughter a pair of streak cats that were working together. He just ran up to the two of them and basically reduced their mechs to walking targets.

Lesson: don't play a pure Streak-Cat and slap on a few lasers or at least normal SRMs for self-defense.

Was it not wise tips like these that the missileboat crew was throwing out whenever someone else complained they were OP?

Honestly, I do not think the Catapult was ever intended to be played this way. As evidenced by the devs currently looking to tone down the efficiency of such loadouts.

Capriocorpus, on 06 December 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

I think the perfect soft counters to the ECM could be the BAP and the Narc. The BAP can be made a soft counter to the ECM by extending the 20m ring, that rests between 180m-200m and allows you to target ECM protected mechs like they werent protected, up to somewhere between 100m to 200m so that you can target them between 180m to 280m or 380m when you have it equiped. However there should be a 1 to 3 sec delay before you can target target them and you have to keep them in your LOS the entire time or it resets the count.

That's a pretty cool idea.

Capriocorpus, on 06 December 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

How the Narc can be made a soft counter is by if you are able to hit an ECM protected mech with like 2 to 3 Narcs the Narced mech will be able to be targeted like it was Narced but not ECM protected. However seeing as how the Narc effect lasts only 15 secs, they say they are buffing this so this suggestion might make the Narc unbalenced, every new Narc could increase the time remaining by 5 secs or so.

I'm still hoping they would make Narc not "time out" but rather have a chance to be destroyed when the 'Mech takes damage...

Also, Narc has very few shots per ton of ammo. What I'd propose instead is that Narc could "break" ECM shielding intermittently, like, every single second the bug is active it has a certain chance to "expose" the 'Mech it is clinging to (without conferring the normal Narc bonus; just making it targetable as normal). However, this exposure itself has a chance of being cancelled out every second as well as the Guardian ECM is trying to override its signal. Essentially, the Narc beacon and the Guardian ECM being in conflict with each other, at times one triumphing over the other.

In MMO terms, when Narc and ECM are active simultaneously, it would be like a buff (ECM) that, each tick (second), can trigger a debuff (Narc) replacing it, yet when the debuff is active it can trigger the buff, also replacing it.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 06 December 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[Vassa]

The ARTIFICIALLY poor visibility in the game make long range ballistics worthless.

The game has become equip ECM and march INVISIBLY to the enemy base.
Oh and the sound bug is annoying as hell. The CTDs continue, the jams continue, The yellow-screen continues!

But they had the time to program christmas tree lights? Hey, those worked so here's a suggestion, put those programmers on the bug fixes!!

[Zwietracht]

Vassa, on 06 December 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

The ARTIFICIALLY poor visibility in the game make long range ballistics worthless.

The game has become equip ECM and march INVISIBLY to the enemy base.
Oh and the sound bug is annoying as hell. The CTDs continue, the jams continue, The yellow-screen continues!

But they had the time to program christmas tree lights? Hey, those worked so here's a suggestion, put those programmers on the bug fixes!!

go and get a new rig... i have not one of the bugs you listed^^ btw i run a k2 gauss cat

[Vassa]

Relying on THIRD PARTIES to fix your busted game is the surest route to failure.

I shouldn't have to install teamspeak to play the game. VOIP should be included in every match I join. Right now it is convoluted as hell to set up and therefore worthless.

You can't drive/fight and text chat effectively. That fact is what killed Auto Assault.

[Corralis]

I have to agree with most of the people here, I really like ECM as it adds a level of tactics to your game that makes everything more fun. I have 8 man competitive games where our entire team (minus 1 guy who was distracting the enemy) was able to sneak round behind the enemy team and flank and utterly destroy them, no way you could do that before. This is much more tactical and I love it. I do however have one problem with PUG's and ECM as I have recently had a match where our teams ECM capable mechs were 2 Atlas's D-DC's (myself and my only team mate) and the ENTIRE PUG group decided that it was a better idea to rush ahead and get destroyed instead of staying in the ECM cover. Now I realise ECM is a new thing and maybe people haven't got used to the idea yet but it's really easy to see if your team has ECM, look for it and plan accordingly.

Oh yea we still won that match by the way cause we are awesome

[IC3B3RG]

Tonight I was in two 8v8 premade matches against a team that was running three Raven's and a Cicada all with ECM, maybe ECM on their Atlases. My team was running one Cicada, Atlas, and Raven with ECM. No one could get lock or target designate mechs that were well within weapon range. It was pretty miserable and made the match a matter of whomever had more ECM mechs won.

TAG only works if someone can sit still long enough to make it useful.
ECM renders NARC mostly useless, not that NARC worked all that well at times before patch.

ECM has effectively proven to render Streaks and LRM's as near useless just by implementation as I haven't a single person use them since patch. When a change removes a near entire weapons group from being a valid choice in the eyes of the playership, that is bad for the game.

I agree that some people need to work on teamwork and tactics. And I find that a valid argument when whole teams are not running ECM. But when 4+ mechs are running ECM on one team, the only reliable counter is running 4+ ECM mechs on the opposing team. And that in and of itself is a game breaker.

ECM needs an adjustment or else ECM groups are going to run off part of the already dwindling player base.

[Edited for fine tuning.]

Edited by Shadewolfe, 06 December 2012 - 02:39 AM.

[Vassa]

ECM puts new players at a huge disadvantage. Drives them away...

[Zwietracht]

Psocrates, on 05 December 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

as a A1 cat pilot ecm is insane - im firing(streaks) on someone have a solid lock and am at point blank - suddenly a jenner runs up behind me and i can no longer fire and get chewed to peices! i get a lot of ppl felt they were op but to make them useless because of 1 peice of equipment that isnt even mounted in the mech being targeted is going a bit far - double the lock on time reduce accuracy or something as it is i'm off to reconfigure my trusty A1 into a srm cat to maybe have a chance as LRM/STREAK A1 cats are unplayable

so.. a whining streakcat user who cant play easy mode anymore & obviously with no idea about mechs using ecm... jenner cant equip ecm. im so happy that your cheesy easy mode mech build is useless now!

[Locan Ravok]

I like ECM, but it need a little nerf in the total missile lock imunity unless you make TAG a module free gear, so that all variants can carry one.

Vassa, on 06 December 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

ECM puts new players at a huge disadvantage. Drives them away...

Unfortunately, this game does not care very much for the new gamer experience.

[Apoc1138]

I really like ECM... however I would make the following changes;

make the detection / lock range 300m instead of 200m (or at least make it so that BAP and all the other sensor skills and modules do increase the 200m range up to and past 300m)
i already see the increase in range of TAG, which is a good idea
I would also make it so that NARC can be seen through ECM and also increase the duration to something like 30-40s

[Temptis]

there is a bug with ECM preventing hostile Missile lock at all within it's bubble (instead of doubling lock acquisition time as stated in Patch Notes and Command Chair)

aside from that i still made 4 kills with my 2xLRM20+ C1 Cat and wrecked an opposing team with my Streak A1 after their Raven tried to unjam our Commando to kill it instead of going guardian mode. It's getting imbalanced when 1 PUG has 3 and the other team has none (including ECM capable Mechs that have no clue about it...)
I even had a match with no friendly ECM where the enemy thought they were invincible and horribly died by focus fire (beeing only 7 helped to, as everyone actualy agreed to defend behind shuttlewreck in FC)

the problem for 8vs8 is not that an AS7 has the ability to equip it but that there is no Tonnage, BV or whatever limit so you want the meanest possible assembly of Heavy Metal on your side, which currently is a Steiner Scout Lance aka 8x AS7. this has nothing to do with ECM, ECM is just icing on the top there.

Edited by Temptis, 06 December 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[30ft SMURF]

So I've played a few more rounds and I've even tested out lrms and have found that solo/pug games tend to make lrms nearly useless if the enemy has ecm, but if used w/a team that has tag and or counter ecm they are still a workable weapon system. I still think lrms should be returned to flight path that came out with the first artemis patch, but overall ecm (while realy f'n annoying, especially since none of the mechs I have can use it) seems to be working properly... It just highlights some of the weaknesses of other weapon systems in this game, which will be a problem untill they get weapon balance worked out on all weapons. Shame they've limited such a powerful tool to 4 craptastic mechs... I'd rather only ravens have it than the ones they've allowed so far... anywho just addin' my 2 cents... again...

[John Clavell]

I feel like ECM is overall a massive boon for the game. I was also pleased to see TAG will get a boost from 450 meters to 750 meters, that should help to give teams more options. I feel like BAP is pretty worthless right now in the bigger picture, maybe it will offer more later down the road. The other things which are obviously exciting are the special ammo for the NARC launcher, I believe there is a ECCM type munition, can't remember when that comes out though.

Anyway, I feel like maybe there is room for some slight tweaks to ECM, certainly around lock on times (CutterWolf has some good thoughts on this). I feel like the biggest issue is not actually the ECM but certainly in 8 v 8 the lack of any classed based matchmaking, it's obviously pretty easy to troll ECM setups in this situation. In the 4 v 4 environment its slightly harder to overuse / troll

In closing, I feel like ECM is a positive for the game. In the 4 v 4 / Pug environment it's added a dynamic that is balanced more by class based matchmaking, and the nature of the grouping. In 8 v 8, with the lack of any classed based match making or other restrictions throws it wide open to some exotic ECM assault feasts

[IC3B3RG]

Tonight I was in two 8v8 premade matches against a team that was running three Raven's and a Cicada all with ECM, maybe ECM on their Atlases. My team was running one Cicada, Atlas, and Raven with ECM. No one could get lock or target designate mechs that were well within weapon range. It was pretty miserable and made the match a matter of whomever had more ECM mechs won.

ECM has effectively proven to render Streaks and LRM's as near useless just by implimentation as I haven't a single person use them since patch. When a change removes a near entire weapons group from being a valid choice in the eyes of the playership, that is bad for the game.

I agree that some people need to work on teamwork and tactics. And I find that a valid argument when whole teams are not running ECM. But when 4+ mechs are running ECM on one team, the only reliable counter is running 4+ ECM mechs on the opposing team. And that in and of itself is a game breaker.

ECM needs an adjustment or else ECM groups are going to run off part of the already dwindling player base.