2028 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

Kargarok, on 05 December 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

You got options mate. Grab a Tag and and get within 480 and you're back in the game. If that's too close for you, switch to a brawler loadout with a Tag and SRM6's. Those can be way more devasting than LRM's anyday. Don't want to be that close? Get a friend to go tag for you. I've been packing Tags on all my scouts these days, to get in practice for this. Sounds like you might, maybe need to take a bit of your own advice.

I'm loving the thrill of the tactics ECM brings back to the game.

So...the solution you have is for me to not use my mech as designed, reduce my firepower for a system that cannot be used until I am already in the ECM range (tagging outside of 200m is futile, as you can't hold the target, and inside 180 you can't tag at all), and 'get a friend to TAG for you'. That last line is the biggest indicator of someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Have you ever told a fellow PUG teammember what to mount on their mech before the match? Of course not, because you cannot. There is no provision made in the game for team construction, only random matchmaking, and no chat outside of combat. You -cannot- 'get a friend to TAG for you' because you cannot tell the person who you do not know before you drop to -have- TAG, and PUGs are made up of people who could care less about teamwork. They only care about themselves. Those are the facts, and by ignoring them, you establish your ignorance.

Lastly, tell me a Catapult with 2 SRM6s 3 MLs and a TAG is going to stand on equal footing with a quad UAC/5 Cataphract in an ECM environment. I think not. And until that Catapult is equally effective, your calls to 'use SRMs' are groundless as well. There is no more reason to require only one viable build on such a mech for it to be capable of fighting in the game than it would be to require your Atlas to only use Machine Guns. You would like that, eh?

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 December 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[Monoc]

To expand on my previous post, which was done with little sleep.

I could have been mistaken about the MW4 BAP range. It might have been 1500m and ECM reduced it to 750.

Thought about an Artemis Counter:

Since Artemis is essentially a limited BAP coupled with high power TAG, give it a slight sensor boost (25% of the BAP sensor range boost), require line of sight for the tighter spread, and leave the missile spread bonus where it is. Artemis will not detect shut down mechs or stack with BAP (BAP takes over) but, does stack with the sensor boost pilot module

More thought on a two mode idea:
1. Focused Jamming - Targets one mech, requires lock on and line of sight, reduces that mech's sensor range to 75% and increases missile lock on time (150m - 200m), jammer must be within 400m - 500m.

2. White Noise - Produces a 100m diameter bubble that reduces opponent sensor range by 50% (400m - 600m). Any mech within the bubble benifits.

This way ECM has one purpose, to jam sensors. You have two modes, a single mech lock down and blanket, and you have counters that could be fit on a variety of mechs. (BAP, TAG, Artemis, and pilot modules as effective counters)

You could also allow more mechs to field ECM, but limit them to one mode and certain mechs (Raven, Atlas DC, etc,..) would have the 2 mode ECM.

EDIT: Deleted Color Tags

Edited by Tungsten Phoenix, 05 December 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[Astrolux]

I believe that ECM is a bit off as far as balance goes. It seems odd to give all these fast mechs the ability to take away the only effective way of killing them which is streaks. Maybe consider letting BAP counter some of the ECM effects for the mech carrying BAP Or letting your target system work on mechs within 80-100m regardless of ECM effects.

As far as pub matches are concerned I feel that ECM takes away too much information from players. Not being able to check the map to quickly see and hear where targeted and engaged enemy and friendly mechs are makes the matches feel much less fun and in a way less tactical. For most of the matches I've played the ECM promotes and all but forces camping strategies or bull doze strategies with mostly assaults and heavies with 3 ECMs.

[B0NES]

Psocrates, on 05 December 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

as a A1 cat pilot ecm is insane - im firing(streaks) on someone have a solid lock and am at point blank - suddenly a jenner runs up behind me and i can no longer fire and get chewed to peices! i get a lot of ppl felt they were op but to make them useless because of 1 peice of equipment that isnt even mounted in the mech being targeted is going a bit far - double the lock on time reduce accuracy or something as it is i'm off to reconfigure my trusty A1 into a srm cat to maybe have a chance as LRM/STREAK A1 cats are unplayable

ECM working as intended there. The A1 was always intended to be a "support" mech. A buddy of mine runs streak cat. Now he can run off without the team a rack up a bunch of kills. he needs to stay close to the ECM so we can counter enemy ECM if need be. Does this promote teamwork? hells yes it does and the game is more fun as a result. Just cause you cant solo kill an enemy team in your cheese build does not mean ECM is breaking the game. it is in fact fixing many of the balance issues that have plagued MWO since closed beta.

Teamwork > Cheese

Astrolux, on 05 December 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I believe that ECM is a bit off as far as balance goes. It seems odd to give all these fast mechs the ability to take away the only effective way of killing them which is streaks.

commando with steaks + ECM. voiala! MWO has become an interesting game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

[Morikuro]

I could get behind DCs with no ECM. Just make the command console...good. Allow it to designate friendly lance members as high priority, so you can see who is going after your poor little electronic warfare mechs automatically, across both lances. People can then actually prioritize whether they want to protect their ECM bubble creator or not. It's a complete command suite similar to what you'd normally see packed inside dedicated command vehicles, why not give it lots of very handy automatic functions that you just set and allow you to receive a superior information output across the whole team.

[Thatguyoverthere]

Veevslav, on 05 December 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

ECM is a crutch for bad players.

The same could be said about LRM's or Streaks. I could make an argument that LRM's or Streaks are a crutch for players who cannot aim! The idea that ECM or Missiles are crutches is silly.

Scratx, on 05 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

You forget we've known for days exactly what ECM would do and there was a lot of brainstorming about what would likely happen and how to counter, etc.

We don't need weeks to see that what was predicted is happening.

You're completely right about the first part, especially for experience players / premades.

However, not everyone was necessarily up to date on how ECM was going to work, hence the shock a lot of people are experiencing. Tactics on the team level, not just for one person, are what's in development right now within the playerbase. Sure, TAG counters ECM. But until one actually gets experience with keeping a tag on a mech while under fire, the idea that "TAG counters ECM" is only a scenario on paper. It applies sometimes, and it doesn't other times. PUG gameplay is what will truly be under development by its own players, and I should've added that in.

[Phades]

The game lacks communication gear to restrict how far data is transmitted, which can double as ECCM if needed. Yeah the first argument is that voice communications relay position information, but that doesn't translate into missile locks for indirect fire. BAP needs the ECCM function enabled as well. MASC needs to be implemented. NARC needs to get buffed.
Effectively, more of the support equipment needs to go into the game (search lights, flares, inferno, smoke, etc) in order to really force the choice between more guns/ammo/cooling and utility. In the light mech realm, they don't have the tonnage to do it all, while larger mechs would have to sacrifice larger weapons to mount it.
Re-implement the collision code and introduce larger maps and the game dynamics will come out more and the perceived need to arbitrarily restrict the items will go away. Certain hard point layouts will more or less dictate which will get fitted with what, due to the balancing act of weight versus space and heat. Although, with how things have started with AMS slots and other items just now starting to go into the game, perhaps introducing a "utility" slot system (anything that isn't a gun fits into "utility slots, including jump jets) might make sense as well to try and help round out machines that have more limited or awkward hard point setups (especially the double/triple cannon builds outside of heavy and assault mechs).

Edited by Phades, 05 December 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Nasty McBadman]

I have only played about 6 hours with ECM in the game (both with and without the ECM on my mech) so I can not make a full assessment yet. I have to say though that so far I love it. Even when my PUG got stomped I enjoyed seeing the changes in tactics. It will be a learning curve and perhaps some changes in balance but it makes me very happy to see E-war in the game.
As for possible suggestions: NARC should counter ECM and it should remain active for a longer time. PPC should counter all electronics (Missle lock, ECM, Thermal vision, zoom, minimap) for a few seconds. Maybe BAP would show fleeting images of ECM mechs at long range, becoming more frequent and persistant at close range. Oh the possibilities are exciting. It will be neat to see what direction the game goes as it gets closer to launch.

[deputydog]

Too much whine.
Ecm is fun. Counter , Jam , Tag, hide. Its great in any mech.

Tag works. Use it. Which makes LRMs work and work well.

Pesky atlas sitting there with ecm and you cant lock it?...TAG it and rain down hell. or have your buddy tag it.

We fought an 8 man last night that every mech had tag. It looked like a bunch of Predator's from the movie coming for us with their laser sights. The LRMS followed shortly after.

Raven being a pest? Counter his ecm with your or your team mates and light him up.

The only thing I think that is needed is a cooldown on the disrupt/counter J key to like 15-30 seconds.

[vettie]

Xeren KelDar, on 04 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

As it stands right now ECM is over tweaked. I think the core concept is pretty good, but just overtuned right now. One thing that could help counter it for LRMs at least is NARC and maybe tune NARC duration to permanent, but susceptable to damage. For instance it would never go off cooldown, but could get destroyed by the LRMs you just landed on the mech.

With just assault mode there seems to be even more of a shift in dynamic to cap the base, only now its both teams trying to be ninjas and do it while under an ECM bubble. This issue may get resolved in the future with CW, but right now seems to really detract from the game as it is negating the big stompy mech battles.

Finally, these may be bugged issues or not, but it seems ECM is blocking targetting for me even while I maintain LoS to target. If bugged or intended I think it needs to be looked into. This has happened to me at less than 90m (ECM bubble), 200m, and out to 600-800 all while I could plainy see the target. Blocking the lockable weapons (SSRM) seems to be the intent and I'm ok with that, but totally negating the red box which really does nothing to direct fire weapons seems excessive. One you lose LoS, I'd be ok with the ninja raven dropping off targetting/radar/etc.

To summarize:

Core Concept pretty good and promises lots of potential

Execution is overtweaked and leads to gameplay issues making it a negative addition to the current system in its current state (both game's state and ECM's)

This is almost my exact feeling on ECM. I do not have an ECM capable mech at this time, however, I have faced them and been on the same team with one (or more).

My feeling is that if I can get a visual, I should be able to target (assuming the target is within normal range.) I understand about the streaks and I am ok with that, however, it also disables my targeting reticule for direct fire weapons (arm mounted lasers or ballistics). Also, If i am (for example) standing in the water (U pick the map) and an enemy is 300 to 400 meters away and we are face to face, I should be able to target him for lasers, ballistics or LRMs. I can physically see him, the shot on him is just a guess?

can LRMs be dumb fired? streaks can not, they must have lock. Given the above situation, I should be able to fire my missiles (LRMs) and get at least close to the target, not have my missiles fly 20 meters and nose five into the water or fly 90 degrees to the right. If they cant be used in dumb fire mode with some bit of accuracy, maybe they need to have that ability.

Also, ECM fits in a Slot like BAP correct? If yes, then can it be destroyed if that section of the mech carrying ECM takes a crit or is destroyed? Seems reasonable..

Overall I like the ECM. I just think there are some tweaks needed to make it more a balanced weapon or rather counter weapon. Its a great add to a great game.

Edited by vettie, 05 December 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[GrizzlyViking]

May be time to re-introduce knockdown to prevent Raven/Commando Fest 2012.

Edited by GrizzlyViking, 05 December 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Colonel Tie]

ECM in its current state is *******

One or two ecm capable mechs (Raven and Cicada for example) with restrictions on armament or speed or whatever by using ecm - and the system would be ok. That would be a tactical component (without ecm swarms).

But two light mech chassis, one (fast) med chassis and an Atlas (sry, but rofl) without any restrictions by using ecm ... one word: FAIL.

[steelblueskies]

Zombie SixNine, on 04 December 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Funny, I've been running a Jenner, normally Founders Jenner, since...I first started. Flavor of the month? No. Do we need collision back? Absolutely. Do we need the JJ mechanics fixed? 100% yes! But OP...no. A good Jenner pilot doesn't need to rely on "lag shield"...does an Atlas move and turn as fast as a Jenner? No. They're not supposed to, and if they did, well, they wouldn't be an Atlas.

This is a game about teamwork and role warfare even if you're flying solo. One person is not going to win the match singlehandedly and one person is not going to lose the match singlehandedly either.

I'm waiting to hear "the Atlas has too much armor! Take some away from them so they're easier to kill!" which is just like saying that a Jenner is too fast...and this next bit is not directed to the poster I'm quoting, but to everybody, check your piloting/gunnery/teamwork skills before ranting on about OP mechs/builds...there is a way to counter everything, you just goota figure out how.



Don't exclusively missile out your mech...problem solved

http://www.twitch.tv...resky/c/1748442

a friend in a jenner on stream, saved this match. 7kills one assist. this was pre ecm.

what was that about " One person is not going to win the match singlehandedly and one person is not going to lose the match singlehandedly either."?(he was solo drop pugging in that video too btw, likes to sit in voice and chat to help fight boredom)

happens all the time. add ecm to that and hello roflstomping while the rest of us take a nap guarding cap.

[VampireMoose]

I highly doubt anyone will read my comment anyway but i think ECM is over powered.
I play PUGS, I don't know anyone else who plays so im stuck with the Joe public.

As stated the counter to ECM was BAP which ANYONE can mount.
But no you just let a select few have the ability.

The fact I like a catapult and have grinded time out to kit them up and unlock modules etc, now makes it very underpowered as half the missle points cant be used and I am not allowed ECM

I am now at the mercy of someone who happens to have a chassis that can run ECM and thus completly over power me.

Just think this should of been mentioned before i started buying stuff.

Edited by VKleita, 05 December 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

I just wanted to tell everyone that didn't know how to counter the ECM how to counter it:

Use an ECM, and click J.

Seriously, where do people get off telling 'us' learn to counter it? It has one right now, ECM, amazing balance.

ECM doesn't promote teamwork anymore than the desire to stay close together to kill targets quickly, except the best way to break that up, LRM's, is now much much less effective (dare I say, pointless?) In my experience, the game has become, who has more ECM's, and SSRMs/LRMs are pointless to use. How does one beat a team of ECM covered enemies who will not move from their spot? LRMs? Unlikely, you'd have to have just as much, or more ECM's, and just plow in, hoping that the missile to ECM counter ratio is the same or in your favor, and the LRM unit behind you means you are short on ECM in the brawl zone already.

[CutterWolf]

Constructive Feedback on ECM

First lets start with the TT game facts of operation:

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield a Mech from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

ECCM, short for Electronic Counter-Countermeasures is an additional mode that expands upon the use of ECM suites

Any ECM suite can be set to ECCM mode to jam enemy ECM suites. The ECM suite in this mode loses its normal functions when used this way. While in ECCM mode, any enemy ECM transmissions within range will be neutralized. If multiple units are in an area with ECM and ECCM active, calculating which system rules out becomes complicated. This is because multiple ECM suites can counter enemy ECCM transmissions. One suite in ECCM mode counters one suite in ECM mode, and renders the intersecting area void of ECM (but not void of ECCM). Two intersecting ECM suites can overpower the ECCM transmissions, and render the intersecting area present with ECM transmissions.

The reason why the MWO version of ECM apears to be overpowered currently is do to the fact that it gives full ECM protection to other allied units within its ECM bubble. I beleave this to be a misinterpretation of the TT rules. If you go by the Battletech online wiki it states "allied units" but if you go by the Battletech Master Rules Books for TT it states "It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM" PGI Dev's should be using the Battletech Master Rules Book instead of the Battletech online Wiki which seem to have taken some creative licensing when interpretating the Battletech Master Rules Book.

Now that we have addressed that, lets move on to target tracking and ECM

In the Battletech Master Rules Book, it does not state anywhere that LRMS or SSRMS can't not get a lock on a ECM Mech. And the only thing its states about Artemis is that it loses its missile hits table bonus but it can still fire as a normal missile launch at the ECM mech. i.e. it can lock and hit as if it was just a normal LRM or SSRM launcher. PGI needs to adjust the lock time for LRMS, SSRMS and Art-LRMS, Art-SSRMS when firing on an ECM Mech. LRMS & SSRMS should have their lock time increased by 1/2 when trying to lock an ECM Mech. Art-LRMS & Art-SSRMS should have their lock time increased to normal LRM/SSRM lock time and lose the Artemis hit modifier. In other words, Artemis equiped lancher as normal lanchers with a slightly faster lock time than normal LRM/SSRM firing at an ECM Mech.

I should also add that the time it takes to maintain a lock should also be adjusted so its equaly hard to maintain a lock. So now once a ECM Mech is detected either via TAG or gets within range to finely be seen by radar these missile systems can work but at a much lower effectiveness

This address's both issues currently with the ECM system inplace and blances the system for game play.

Edited by CutterWolf, 05 December 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Celticfrost15]

Spent 4 hours last night in a 4 man without any EMC, We occasionally had pug EMC's but for the most part were without, and managed to win most of our events by working together. I also spent a few hours doing 8 man drops and that was where I found the balance issues. I dont think EMC is way OP, it is an advantage to be sure, but easily countered with good team work and patience. I do believe that the EMC bubble needs to effect the friendlies in exactly the same way, since an electric field is indiscriminate. As a side note, an enemy entering you EMC field should also be protected by its influence.

[deputydog]

Quote

1) AutoCannon projectile speeds increasing. AC/20 ~ 900m/s. AC/LBX10 ~ 1100m/s. AC/UAC/5 ~1300m/s.
2) PPC and ERPPC projectile speeds increasing to 2000m/s (AC/2 speed).

I've also looked into doing some tweaks with the NARC and TAG systems. So far I'm planning on increasing the time that a NARC beacon lasts from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

These changes will go through testing and if it feels right, you'll see them next patch.

Tag at 750 will help lrms alot. Plus being able to snipe with erppcs easier will be great. Maybe next patch...

[Elder Thorn]

i don't think engine restrictons for ECM Mechs are required. Implement a maximum tonnage limit and make it so, that a team with 6 people can play against 8 using heavier mechs if they want to.

Just an idea though

[vettie]

CutterWolf, on 05 December 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Constructive Feedback on ECM

First lets start with the TT game facts of operation:

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield a Mech from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

ECCM, short for Electronic Counter-Countermeasures is an additional mode that expands upon the use of ECM suites

Any ECM suite can be set to ECCM mode to jam enemy ECM suites. The ECM suite in this mode loses its normal functions when used this way. While in ECCM mode, any enemy ECM transmissions within range will be neutralized. If multiple units are in an area with ECM and ECCM active, calculating which system rules out becomes complicated. This is because multiple ECM suites can counter enemy ECCM transmissions. One suite in ECCM mode counters one suite in ECM mode, and renders the intersecting area void of ECM (but not void of ECCM). Two intersecting ECM suites can overpower the ECCM transmissions, and render the intersecting area present with ECM transmissions.

The reason why the MWO version of ECM apears to be overpowered currently is do to the fact that it gives full ECM protection to other allied units within its ECM bubble. I beleave this to be a misinterpretation of the TT rules. If you go by the Battletech online wiki it states "allied units" but if you go by the Battletech Master Rules Books for TT it states "It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM" PGI Dev's should be using the Battletech Master Rules Book instead of the Battletech online Wiki which seem to have taken some creative licensing when interpretating the Battletech Master Rules Book.

Now that we have addressed that, lets move on to target tracking and ECM

In the Battletech Master Rules Book, it does not state anywhere that LRMS or SSRMS can't not get a lock on a ECM Mech. And the only thing its states about Artemis is that it loses its missile hits table bonus but it can still fire as a normal missile launch at the ECM mech. i.e. it can lock and hit as if it was just a normal LRM or SSRM launcher. PGI needs to adjust the lock time for LRMS, SSRMS and Art-LRMS, Art-SSRMS when firing on an ECM Mech. LRMS & SSRMS should have their lock time increased by 1/2 when trying to lock an ECM Mech. Art-LRMS & Art-SSRMS should have their lock time increased to normal LRM/SSRM lock time and lose the Artemis hit modifier. In other words, Artemis equiped lancher as normal lanchers with a slightly faster lock time than normal LRM/SSRM firing at an ECM Mech.

This address's both issues currently with the ECM system inplace and blances the system for game play.

Cutter nailed it.