2028 replies to this topic

[Kurios]

After playing a few hours of 8-mans with Marik... Im pretty much agreed with one cut... and pretty much only one cut to ECM. Kick it off the Atlas. And, for future note. Kick it off of ANYTHING that isnt a light mech.

Id even go so far as to say it should be raven exclusive... but meh... Im biased there.

Maybe have the raven have a super-ECM type deal... or the atlas version of the ECM be something like a personal ECM only.. (And that Atlas shouldn't even have ECM by lore... but meh, I digress .)

Other than that? Its awsome. And by the way, we played plenty of games that where not Atlases Vs Atlases. In fact, I think we ran 3-4 ECMs on an 8-man. It worked out. The biggest problems are
a) Learning how to call out targets.
Learning to use ECM. Its hard to coordinate that.

and yes, I ran a LRM Cat. I still, without the ability to target things, managed a few games with 200+ damage, keeping about 5-600m from the line of combat. soo.... No, the fact that ECM hides mechs isnt too big of an issue. Invest in a large laser (Big target pointer )... and learn to throw LRMs without a lock?

But enough ranting...Meh. I still found it enjoyable ( And yah, Our pair of LRM boats still did quite well, even fighting the ECMs )

[xXBagheeraXx]

Just gonna leave this here...

http://mwomercs.com/...nge-suggestion/

[Kiddy]

As far as I know standard range of targeting is 800m with bap 1000m. So it gets reduced to 200m (since bap gets disabled theres no further range increment to 250m). On the other side there are only two weapons which need a lock on, lrm and ssrm.

I'd say give it a week or two before everyone gets used to the possibilitys of how to deploy mechs with ecm/eccm.

For me as a commando pilot, I have always relayed more on my own vision rather than those fancy triangles. Mostly because you can't tag more than one mech while spotting.

[Carmaga]

Well, today I took bunch of matches as a pug and I noticed one thing:
Pugs don't have a chance.
8 mech drops + ECM = 6 vs 8 = Total annihilation.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Shakespeare, on 04 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

People are going to complain, lots, about... ...dead streak cats.

I love Streak Cats. They are such an inefficient use of the A1 platform it is hilarious. My A1 is drastically different, and FAR more potent than any streak cat. Let us just say I average 700-800 damage a match and I am not using LRMs....

[Devil Fox]

ECM as it stands is relatively fine in Pug matches, it allows skilled players a chance to hide themselves or to engage other ECM users in a game of cat and mouse. It is annoying in large numbers, but the problem of ECM becomes apparent in the Atlas, the wall that can't be targeted or killed without direct fire.

At present the ECM has made LRM's null and void, if you run a counter ECM hunter you can still get out targets but tag is useless due to current map size, and terrain/cover which means even an ECM unit will close with you regardless. Then you have the Atlas D-DC, the ECM just makes it a moving wall... you can't light it up, you can't spot it and they tend to run in packs so even a good light mech will be hardpressed to kill or at least counter ECM them. I still don't understand why all Raven variants can't use ECM, a it stands the 2x and 4x variants are obsolete from the get go with hardpoint limitations, and speed's of only 113kph... renders them easy prey and wasted space on a team.

ECM has to be removed off the Atlas, and limitations on the number per match should be reviewed as the ECM warfare (who has the most) in 8man teams is really hurting the long term enjoyment of premades. No one likes finding 5 ECM Atlas base camping with 3 fast moving ECM unit's just running around. As Narc, LRM and SSRM are null and void now.

[Knyght]

Hello, this might be a bit biased.

I primarily pilot a streakmando with ECM. I've been doing well with it. However, I don't feel that overpowered.

1. I'm a Commando. Everyone goes for me as an easy kill as it is.
2. I have ECM. Everyone wants to kill me first.
3. I'm brittle and easy to kill, especially with this XL engine and 3 tons of easy-explode ammo.
4. There is *always* an enemy with ECM.

Having streaks + ECM isn't a big deal in the slightest. I can either not fire a single shot, or I can put my ECM into counter mode, making me more useless to the rest of the team in order to fire some pot shots. ECM has the same effect on me as anyone else. And if there are two enemies with ECM, I'm pretty screwed since I can't even counter it.

I think ECM is great, but maybe a little too powerful and not enough reasonable counters.

[ProphetX]

After playing a LRM/SSRM catapult A1 with BAP, I met 2 problems :
* Often, I was unable to get a lock on anything. I was just completly useless.
* When I could get a lock for SSRM on scouts, it was being so so slow that I couldn't fire a single missile before being killed

I like the addition but it makes SSRM and LRM much more difficult to use. May be they could optionnaly be turned to a "direct fire mode" to counter ECM. Also BAP looked useless with ECM.

Edited by ProphetX, 04 December 2012 - 11:55 PM.

[Nebuzar]

ECM needs rebalancing or PGI needs to create an ECCM for certain mechs. The ECM is too strong an unbalances the game due to the fact that mechs with it are invulnerable to any missile attacks and this should not be the case.

There should still be the ability to lock a mech that has and ECM while in an A1 but that's not the case. My A1 (LRM and Streak fit) was unable to lock ANY targets while a jenner circled me. There should still be enough of a signal to lock a mech that is withing 100m of you no matter if they have an ECM acitve or not. You should not have to have another light mech with an ECM on disrupt have to follow you around to kill a mech that is so close to you.

In reality an ECM is supposed to have a "chance" to break target lock of the mech it's targeting or if its an AOE ECM then it should not be so op as to keep all mechs that are near the ECM equiped mech under cloak until you're inside 150m of them. It should not counter the sensors of every mech in the game so much that it renders all missiles useless cause this only makes the game become a brawling match if both sides have mechs with ECM.

I played a lot of matches today with 5 different mech types (and more than that in setups) from Centurians on up and the matches where the team i was on had 2+ mechs with ECM just slaughtered the other team if they didnt have the same number of mechs with ECM. I also had the privlage of seeing one team spawn with no mech ECM capable and the match ended in about 3 minutes with a total of 200 damage being done between both teams. If this is the kind of matches we're going to see more of then ECM needs to be nerfed to keep the game mechanics flowing.

In my final thoughts I played about 50 matches today and other then streaks fit on brawlers with missle slots there was almost non existant use of missiles which tells me one thing... ECM has taken Missiles out of the game as a viable weapon. Which in turn makes mechs like the A1 useless since it has no other means of weapon mounts other then missiles, and in turn reduces the whole catapult class, minus the K2, to virtually useless. Im sure this is not what PGI had intended to happen.

So either an ECCM needs to be created for mechs that can not equip ECM in order to give them equal footing or the strength of the ECM needs to be reduced to a point where some sort of target lock can be made for missile boats even if it means lock times are greatly increased or target lock is broke after each volley is fired.

Also the only people I see raving about ECM is those that use mechs that equip it. I personally use medium and heavy mechs that can't use it and otherwise are left in the dark, literally. I also know that you light mech guys will critisize me for my comments but they do hold true and unless you want to see everyone running around and brawling with lasers and AC's only you better get over yourselves and get a grip on reality cause that's what's going to start happening real fast unless something is done to change it.

[Argent Usher]

Zombie SixNine, on 04 December 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Funny, I've been running a Jenner, normally Founders Jenner, since...I first started. Flavor of the month? No. Do we need collision back? Absolutely. Do we need the JJ mechanics fixed? 100% yes! But OP...no. A good Jenner pilot doesn't need to rely on "lag shield"...does an Atlas move and turn as fast as a Jenner? No. They're not supposed to, and if they did, well, they wouldn't be an Atlas.

This is a game about teamwork and role warfare even if you're flying solo. One person is not going to win the match singlehandedly and one person is not going to lose the match singlehandedly either.

I'm waiting to hear "the Atlas has too much armor! Take some away from them so they're easier to kill!" which is just like saying that a Jenner is too fast...and this next bit is not directed to the poster I'm quoting, but to everybody, check your piloting/gunnery/teamwork skills before ranting on about OP mechs/builds...there is a way to counter everything, you just goota figure out how.


Don't exclusively missile out your mech...problem solved

+1

I run or better jump a Jenner for several month now.
I promise DEST pilots don't need sstreaks nor seemingly omnipresent "lag shield" to destroy mechs.
I played MWO in the closed beta with collisions - no problems because i have JJ.
I played MWO in the closed beta til today as PUG player vs. 8 premades/mixed - now i can fight vs. more as one mech without problems.
As usual good players will adapt quickly to the new conditions and the casual players jump on the bandwagon as each patch.

[Jacob Dieffenbach]

I totally love all the changes, except for one:

The Beagle Active Probe should not be completely nullified by the ECM. There should be a little bit more rock-paper-scissors action going on there, with BAP having a reduced--but not eliminated--detection range, or possibly being able to punch through a single bit of targeting information, or something.

[Varil Rau]

I have never died so fast as i did in my 3L right off the patch yesterday. Was fun though - but carrying a ecm boat seems to make you the SHOOTME target.

And the second i died all hell broke loose.

Its fun though. Imo they should upgrade TAG a bit. As in a bit more range for TAG and then to be able to light up targets inside ECM bubble.

Die becouse a 3L runs into your group and shuts your whole team off? Well, tell that hunkering DDC to go conter mode and streak the living crap outta me. (Not fun btw..)

Run throught the tunnel, one day i see a streacat. Next came there was another streakcat with commando. Oops there went my ECM and boom imdead.

8 DDC's? Well, thats what you have gaussapults for. Kill 3 of them before you move into their range.

Q -key should still show up designations for target in YOUR line of sight though.

[Roadbuster]

While I like the changes to gameplay with the implementation of ECM I have to agree that it's a bit too effective atm.

I'd change a few things:
- If a mech is more than 200m away targetting isn't possible without TAG or NARC, even if it's in line of sight.
- When TAG or NARC are used on a mech it can be targetted like usual, with normal missile lock times. (increase NARC duration)
- If a mech is within 200m and in your line of sight you are able to target even without TAG or NARC, but missile lock times are increased.

EDIT:
When within 200m double SSRM lock time and tripple LRM lock time for players aiming at that mech.

Edited by Roadbuster, 05 December 2012 - 12:18 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

The ECM should not completely remove the IFF signature of enemy mechs. this should be reserved for an IFF Jammer.

[Pr0of]

Hi, o/

I want to start this by saying that I piloted the 3L before the ecm and loved it, mastered it, etc; now I feel like I'm piloting just another fotm...which I do not love. I think the "concept" of ecm is great and is much needed. I think that it provieds a great counter to LRM and SSRM. However, I think that the counter is much too great. Don't get me wrong; I HATE StreakCats and LRM Boats of all sizes, but I don't think they should essentially be cut out by one module.

The problem with ECM as it stands is that there is no limit to how many you can bring. If the game is based on role warfare, and everyone is basically filling the ecm role, it shuts out an entire branch while effectively losing nothing of its own. ECM boats are by no means unable to defend themselves (again I have mastered the 3L and 2D so I know from experience), and as such they are able to dish the dirt without losing much if anything in return. What does this leave us with? Essentially, everyone trying to gain that extra bit of ECM defense in mechs that were already strong. I truly do not see how the only counter to ECM can be to have ECM/ECCM of your own; that just implies that Moar ECM = Win as far as I can see...maybe my math is off.

Do I think there should be ECM? Yes, absolutely. Do I think it should be as ground breaking and such a paradigm shift in tactics/playstyle...not so much. I think the answer may lie in limitations more than elimination. To effectively have no electronic anything while in someone's bubble is kind of extreme in my oppinion. I think that the beagle should still allow you to gain target information as per normal, maybe not achieve lock or limit lock speed, but it should do something. I think that if you NARC or Tag the person with ECM, even while inside of their bubble they should be targetable for LRM or SSRM. As it stands, the window for tag while it is a window; is much too small and NARC is just a waste of tonnage.

I think my biggest issue with ECM at the moment is the absolute over abundance of it. I almost challenge you, the reader or developer, to play an 8-8 match without seeing at least 6 ECM boats on the opposing side. I know that it exists in the B-Tech universe, but I think having an assault mech with ECM in this unfinished game is simply too extreme. Rock, paper, shotgun. Specifically with how 8-8 has no Tonnage match. You can literally go against 8 ECM toting Atlas's with 8 mediums or something. My oppinion, an easy fix would be to have it similar to EVERY MECH GAME I'VE EVER PLAYED, and have a max dropping tonnage. That would force 8-8 to divy up who does what apposed to, everyone grab your ECM Atlas..we got some camping to do. So, as I said, with limits I see success. If only at max 2 ecm boats were allowed per team with a max tonnage of ?500? we would see a lot more of this mythical "Role Warfare" than we do now.

Sorry for my WoT, I just really enjoy the game, and want to give m2c on how I would like to see it improved. People are bound to disagree, but that's their oppinion. This is mine.

Edited by Pr0of, 05 December 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[RainbowToh]

As a streak user for my Cents, since my latency is kinda high (plsplspls regional servers!) mainly for shooting lights. I think for the ECM to completely negate LRM n Streaks is way too big a nerf. To disable two weapon systems entirely is crazy. Increase their lockon times by a huge factor? I can live with that, since the LRM/Streak player would have to put in effort to maintain lock on fast moving lights but their weapons can still fire.

[Sulf]

Firstly Tag is a terrible counter for ECM. basically ECM is a bubble and you don't even need to aim it. just run around and let it happen. Tag however requires a weapons slot I'd rather use on a really weapon, to find and to focus attention on this target. It's vastly inferior, which only stands to reason why everyone is now buying variants that suit that play-style of counter and recounter.

Besides that, Targets barely show up on some maps due to darkness and low contrast, meaning I play most matches only in heat-vision.

It's interesting you chose to so greatly improve on ECMs functions, make Tag it's supposed nemesis and leave the beloved Beagle Active Probe out to dry. Technically by canon BAP was never meant to counter ECM but given how powerful ECM was made, it's now required.

Here's what should be done: BAPs can be equiped on 2-3 times the chassis as ECM, it gives the equipped mech:
the ability to make locks at 600m on ECM protected mechs but not share.
the ability to make locks at 400m on ECM protected mechs and share with team.
the ability to make locks at 300m on mech equipped with ECM but not share.
the ability to make locks at 200m on mech equipped with ECM and share with team.

at 180 you get disrupted as normal and when a light can run right through a whole group and be fine because streaks are worthless and no one can figure out where it is, it really sends home how much we need knockdowns back.

Besides that. I feel like there should be more indicator of when you're being jammed. Perhaps a simple buzz, hum or mild feedback. Minor detail really, but as it is, half the time I don't even know.

Give us different sounds for disrupt and counter and that should do it.

[Batch1972]

Pro:
NIce mechanics

Con:
no effective counter - bap too weak
PUG's are screwed- it's random whether you get ecm on our team and if you don't have it and the other side does, especially if they contain a group then you are screwed
no point in playing any other mech except one that has it now

i didn't realise there was no weight / type limits on matches. I always assumed that if your team had 8 lights the other side would have. If there are no limits then change it

[Felix]

"Please attempt to respond to the following questions in your responses:
The weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM.
The behaviour that weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM..
A suggested change (increase/decrease) to the ECM stats to improve balance."


Founders Catapult
Mech is next to useless as enemies disapear under ECM shields and TAG is too inconsistent.
A change? Remove the retarded thing already. Baring that make it only cloak the owner of the module, and just leave higher lockon times of anyone in its bubble.

Edited by Felix, 05 December 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[RainbowToh]

I think users with the BAP shouldnt be affected by the ECM. It is an Active Probe dishing out those radar waves. While they cant share the effects with their teammates, they shouldnt be affected. Right now the ECM is making the BAP n NARC near useless, n goodness knows the last time I saw anyone with NARC.