2028 replies to this topic

[Aginato]

First of all; I love the function ECM fullfills. As stated before it introduces a "sneak attack" possibility which wasn't possible before. It counters the streak cats and the LRM teams and adds to the value of light(er) mechs.

But, I think it also introduces an even bigger difference between teams (be it 4 or more players) and PUGs because the first will inevitably have a more focussed and / or balanced loadout in which ECM now all of a sudden plays a big role.
On top of that it has a very big impact on the game for the 1.5 tons it weighs, I reckon that if you pilot a mech which can carry an ECM module you would be stupid not to...

Having a comm channel would already be a large counter to this in a PUG, since then you can at least communicate effectively between team members to counter somewhat the effect of the ECM, since the chat commands are just too slow. (but i guess the comm channel is 1) a big advantage regardless and 2) implemented in the C3 app)

Anyway, while ECM makes this game more interesting for the hardcore / clan / group of friends crowd, it sure as hell makes it more difficult for the casual player who, more often then not, ends up in a PUG

[Daimonos]

I've been having a great time playing 8v8. We've been running quite Atlas-heavy in 8v8 and yes, it often ends in a tense, nail-biting brawl.

However: we've lost plenty of games to lighter, faster opponents. I've seen Jenners, Hunchbacks and even Dragons and Centurions on opposing, winning teams. My initial impressions are that teams are winning more by playing better, than weighing more.

[Jiiri]

Waladil, on 05 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

So... anyone here watch Extra Credits? An episode they did recently has very direct influence on how ECM is borked.
http://penny-arcade....de/counter-play

Thanks for sharing ! I think this nails it.

I guess most players argueing here just see the game from a rather small point of view. It is good to change sides, and try to play some dozens of games in a different setup (and yes, I think before you say ECM is good or bad you should play some dozens of games, not just a handfull).

I did so: I bought an Atlas AS7-D-DDC yesterday. How does it feel ? Do you get focussed ? Does it have downsides ? Is the ECM really overpowered or do good players counter it easily ?

I played 18 4vs4 games (Mainly bc we were sick of 8vs8 Atlas-ECM-Stomp). Just wanted to know if the ECM flood took over to
the 4vs4). I am far from being a top player, I have to admit, so don't take this as boasting around:

From 18 games, I won 14 and lost 4. From these 4 games I lost, 2 games had more ECM then my team had.
From all 14 games I won, we had more ECMs onboard. Or to put it this way : 16times the team with more ECMs won vs 2 times the other way round.

I wrote down a record on how many Mechs and which Mechs in each team had ECM. I found out, that the most devestating matches where a team totally got annihilated were these were a team had 4 ECM vs 0 ECM. Games with just 1 ECM on a side and 0 on the other side tended to be rather close (or resulted even in a loss).

The positive effect was: all PUGs stayed close to the ECMs. It was a more concentrated gameplay. I enjoyed playing an Atlas, I have to admit: you just push the throttle forward, see your Mech taking up some speed, stomping happily towards the enemy. Fellow Atlas follow the train. No LRMs were fired, no one knew where we were. We stomped right into the enemy, engaging at about 300m. Shot some AC20. Mechs fell down crippled. When I got some fire I fell back a bit behind another Atlas. We tried also some scouting, but found out it was not necessary - just march ahead. No, I don't mean this here ironic ! It was quite relaxing and nice to play. But I don't think it has much gamedepth, or tactics, or good play being able to aim and dodging fire... we just stomped into Melee, shot 3 or 4 Mechs won, went to their base, and the game ended in most games.

While I now understand all ECM users say: I enjoy it, and it is great not to be shot at and it has a new game mechanic, you have to adept, I found this adepting lead me to steering my own ECM Atlas-DC, and my new "tactic" is building a train (of course in a battleline, not blocking each others LOS), and brawling the enemy down. I can live with that, though I think there
was much more tactic, versatility in Mechs and chassis, needs for scouting, needs for flanking etc. in the game before.

I strongly encourage everyone defending the ECM to play 20+ games in an LRM boat or a Streak Mech WITHOUT having ECM superiority on your side, maybe in 4vs4 PUG games. See how much fun it is for you, how you can adept to the new game mechanics. I also think you should be honest and make a list, watching how the distribution of Mechs changes - will people adept to the game by just stocking up more Atlas DC and ECM, or will Centurions and the like still be played a lot or will they vanish ?

[Ginga121]

I pilot an ECM mech. My heat efficiency isn't great as it is. I already have to watch my heat simply from shooting. Adding the ECM generating heat would mean I would never be able to fire a shot off if I wanted to use the ECM.

My ECM Light relies on other light's to help me take down enemy ECM Lights as my firepower isn't as stong as theirs.

If my ECM generates heat simply by being switched on then you are punishing me for using teamwork and tactics... Is that really what we want Mechwarrior Online to do?

Seriously... If it generated heat by being on I would just scrap it altogether in favour of more ammo or armour. It's not worth having.

Also the Counter/Disrupt mode works PERFECTLY. You just have to use a small amount of common sense and intelligence when you are playing with it. I don't know about you but I don't want everyone to be able to pick up and ECM and easily run around and be really effective with it. I'd rather people had to think when they are using it and adjust to the situations around them (tactics)

Edited by Ginga121, 06 December 2012 - 03:42 AM.

[Jukebox1986]

We won most of the matches against steiner-scoutlances. You can easy outcap them.

Let them faceroll, im not in the mood to fight off 8 100t mechs, i see them, i report them, we go around them an cap the s*** out of their base.

Easy win.

[Ginga121]

I have seen lots of LRMs and Streaks in public matches being used. I use streaks myself with no problems. Yes I have an ECM but I make it my responsibility to hunt down enemy ECMs and allow missile lock to them so they die quickly.

If your TAG mechs can't tag while moving then there is your problem. You shouldn't have to sit still to tag an enemy mech. That's just inefficient play

Edited by Ginga121, 06 December 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[SjurWarEagle]

Personally I like the added ECM. I'm not playing any mech able to carry one but I've noticed a huge change in tactics and behavoir.
But there are some points I don't like:
- Atlas able to carry ecm (should be limited to light/medium mechs)
- TAG/NARC should work even if in ECM-range. This would give light mechs a real use in scoutig and tagging with at the moment is complete gone
- the beagle active probe should be some kind of half-counter-ecm giving the mech a much better sight at the moment
- please please deny combinations of ecm and streaks in one mech...

all together I'm happy to see tactic additions like ECM but it needs some finetuning

[Kain]

ECM brought some new tactics into the game, and stimulates working together as a team (in PUGs)

but the amount of ECM mechs on the battlefield is way to high!

[Asmosis]

Well the counter to ECM should not be ECM.

Its like saying streakcats are fine because the other team can have streakcats or laggy netcode shielded Jenners are fine because the other team can have them as well.

Having the counter to something, BE that something is not a good balance.

Its like having the following:

rock> rock
rock>paper
paper>scissors
scissors>paper

Edited by Asmosis, 06 December 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[Ginga121]

Tags are easier to counter with. Don't have to get so close. That's why I carry a tag on my ECM mech

Edited by Ginga121, 06 December 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[Greg Hudson]

The ECM concept is great like it is now. It adds a new dimension into the gameplay and tactics. In the near future I'm sure we will see some minor required adjustements. Also the amount of ECM will be reduced in the futire, because currently most of the people want to get some experience with it. Once the "hype" is over it will be reduced to a normal level.

Good job PGI

[Stingz]

Shadewolfe, on 06 December 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

Tonight I was in two 8v8 premade matches against a team that was running three Raven's and a Cicada all with ECM, maybe ECM on their Atlases. My team was running one Cicada, Atlas, and Raven with ECM. No one could get lock or target designate mechs that were well within weapon range. It was pretty miserable and made the match a matter of whomever had more ECM mechs won.

The biggest problem with ECM users, is that most of them don't know how to use Jammer(Remove-ECM) mode. Proper use of Jammer mode means blowing off the ECM cover the opponent has.

Killing the mech carrying it also removes ECM.


More ECM wont win you matches, you need a team that actually works together first. Large amounts of ECM together are usually premades.

Edited by Stingz, 06 December 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[Motomoto]

Pataine, on 05 December 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Finally gonna get in on this topic.

The Guardian Ecm suite nullifies the affects an enemy Beagel Active Probe (though it would notice it is being jammed) Artemis fire control systems, Narc missle beacon or C3 Computer when that unit is WITH-IN 6 hexes (or 180 meters) of a Gaurdian equiped UNIT. Friendly sysems are not affect by the unit.
A Guardian nullifies these systems even when not directed at the Guardian equiped UNIT. It also works when the path of the enemy system pass with 6 hexes (180 meters) of the Guardian.

This is from the BatteTechCompendium p. 120. It says nothing about an area affect protecting mulitple targets it is only supposed to work on the Mech it is equiped on and only out to 180 meters. It says nothing about long range sensors not working, LRM's not getting a lock on or Streaks not being able to lock. Streaks even within the 6 hexes (180 meter) are supposed to fire as normal SRM'sThis is for short range close quarters combat.

From the Tactical Handbook p63 as follows - Angel Ecm Suite does all the above and affects Streaks but only if they are with the before mention 6 hexs (180 meters).

Change it to how it is supposed to work on that mech only and only out to 180 meters.

so true m8, they (pgi) has totaly mis understood the idea intention behind ecm. and from my pow it is destroying the game.
i like you reference to the BT handbooks.

[ATao]

ECM is ok with the exception of D-DC atlas having it. Restrict ECM to light and medium mechs only and it should be perfectly fine.

[Flapdrol]

I'd restrict ECM to ravens only, then put very stringent engine restrictions on the raven, so they dont have the lagshield, that should make things more interesting.

Edited by Flapdrol, 06 December 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[Grym]

Jiiri, on 06 December 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

From 18 games, I won 14 and lost 4. From these 4 games I lost, 2 games had more ECM then my team had.
From all 14 games I won, we had more ECMs onboard. Or to put it this way : 16times the team with more ECMs won vs 2 times the other way round.

I did a very similar comparison on this. But with Streak Cats.

http://mwomercs.com/...-by-streak-cat/

Before ECM was implemented 9 out of 10 matches the side with more streak cats won.

So its either ECM Atlai or streak cats?

Id be more sympathetic to everyone wanted to nerf ECM if they did not always seem to have the underlying goal of making the streak cat build viable again.

Please just move on to the next FOTM D-DC. ECM ruining streak cats is probably here to stay, considering the alternative is to nerf SSRM into the ground like they have done to other weapons.

[Karenai]

Due to the games horrible performance I have been running LRM boats for some weeks now.
Atlas, Awesome and Catapult all make nice LRM boats. ECM has made LRM boats less of an option to most pugs, which is a good thing.

The worst thing about LRM boating was, untill the implementation of ECM, that medium brawler mechs never stood a chance of realy brawling. Any Hunchback, Cent, Cicada that showed up 1000m from the enemy was greeted with houndreds of LRM, which for any non extreme speed pimped medium ment death before firing even one shot.

Now even one ECM mech changes everything. It does not realy matter if you block the enemy. The real change is, that your brawlers have a chance to get into firing range without getting destroyed on sight. For them it does matter little if there is ECM anywhere once they are in point blank range.

Yes, there is way more brawling going on now then ever. Which is good. Brawling is fun and rewarding. I would run a brawler myself if my FPS would allow it.

You can still snipe with PPC/Gauss if you wish to, even better now, because you do not have to keep yourself more then 1000m away from the LRM boats.

You can use LRM and SSRM, there is just more to it then before.

Now to the facts.
The two ECM modes are a cool design.
Overall the introduction of ECM made all games more dynamic. Sometimes you miss a whole star of Mechs running right onto your cap because of ECM on one of them.
The 180m range feels right, it gives pugs more room to run around. But I would limit the range for 8vs8 premade matches to something along the lines of 120-150m.
The counter mechanics are still a little bit wonky and sometimes not working at all.
TAG is a great counter mechanic, but for scouts the window of opportunity is too smal. It makes neither real world sense nor gaming wise to disrupt the TAG laser in the 180m bubble of ECM. TAG is very difficult to wield, especially on fast moving mechs and targets, there should be no or very little space where TAG is not working. Maybe 50m, so you cannot stand inside the enemy mech while using TAG. (And I am saying that as an Atlas pilot having to deal with those pesky scouts)
ECM equipped scouts are sometimes almost impossible to spot, especially ravens. Gray/black Ravens on some maps are almost invisible to the naked eye. I spend some games looking for that mech with ECM never finding it untill most of the mechs are destroyed, just to find out it was some Raven no one was shooting at, because he stands half his hight in some water and merges with the background.
Using TAG against them is almost impossible, because of lagshield. And you have to keep it on them for prolonged time to check if they have ECM or not.
More often then not the ECM tag does NOT show on ECM equipped enemy mechs. Or it does show, but sporadicly.
I do not know if switching modes is resposible for that, but an un-ECMd mech, either by TAG or counter ECM should be shown as such. Maybe even instantly before more info appears. It makes little sense not to know that this mech does use ECM if you are jamming it to lock it. In the "real" world you could instantly see, even without locking on, which mech is emitting massive ammounts of electro magnetic radiation. But for gaming purposes it should be shown right after lock on, after the ECM is countered.

Overall I find the ECM a very good addition to the game. The chosen chassis which utilise it are the right ones, too. While you can use them as snipers or LRM boats, they perform better as brawlers, but are not the best brawler chassis for their class. A very nice risk to gain factor.
While on the first day many players used ECM themselfs, now less and less are willing to run with it, because they realise that using more ECM capable mechs just diminishes their teams power. Two or three ECM equipped mechs are just right for any pug group.
The number of pure LRM boats, SSRM boats and snipers went down and the number of healthy mix builds went up, which is a good thing.
ECM is not that scary anymore, even though sometimes mechs with ECM are hugged to death by their own.

If possible though, the number of times an exclusivly non ECM pug group has to fight several ECM equipped mechs should be limited.

You CAN beat ECM mechs without ECM or TAG, it is just way more complicated to even find the right one to destroy without those counters.

[Sen]

There is no reason for this. ECM is implemented perfectly. Any additional problems you may be encountering are PEBKAC.

[codynyc]

well IN 8 man drops, everyone and there brother has a atlas with ecm ( role warefare gets thrown out the window)

IN pug games ( 4 man drops) You see one or two mechs on each side with ecm And it is normally a cicada or raven. (role warefare is alive and well)

How to fix this? 8 man drops needs tonnage limits. each side rushing the other base is boring to s**t 30 people on our ts last night we were all 4 man groups .

[Zan Wolfsjager]

There are a lot of people running ECM right now so they can try it out. There are dozens of variants currently available, only 4 can mount ECM, but we are seeing 3-4 people a side with ECM even in PUGs. That can't last. I think a lot of the uproar will die down as those guys go back to running the mechs they like and we see fewer people running the 4 variants that can mount ECM.

Generally speaking, I am in favor of ECM. I've had matches against teams where basically everyone had lrms, which meant that the enemy could be spread out but you still took massive damage as soon as someone saw you. I like that ECM removes that. I also like that it helps counter streakers. That being said, I do have some problems with the system.

I know we aren't striving for realism in this game; we are trying to make it fun to play. This has resulted in weapons and ams being less effective than they are on the modern battlefield, however the ECM has gone the other way and is actually more effective than current jamming gear. Having been on the receiving end irl:

1) jamming becomes less effective the farther you are from the source and the closer you are to your allies. At the ranges we are replicating in game, we should be affected by ECM at all times, however the effect should start small and ramp up the closer you get to the ECM source. This may be too difficult to model in game.

2) ECM should absolutely work on NARC, which is essentially a radio tracker under the fender like in James Bond. It should not work on TAG at all, which is essentially shining a laser pointer on the target and letting the missile run into it. In order for ECM to work on TAG directly, it would also have to reduce the effectiveness of your laser weapon systems, which is a non-starter. The other option is to blind the incoming missiles, but ECM is not a laser AMS.

3) ECM is not perfect. You can burn through it if your gear is good/powerful enough. I recommend BAP and ECM counter each other (ie you don't get BAP bonuses against ECM coverage, or ECM bonuses against mechs with BAP, you just have normal non-BAP/non-ECM functionality. The BAP would still need to be outside of the ECM bubble to communicate stuff to your allies).

4) ECM shouldn't counter other ECMs. That doesn't make any sense in the physical world we live in. It might be a game balance issue, though, which I understand. I don't really have a problem with this in game, it just makes my head hurt when I think about it too much.

5) It isn't a cloaking device. Anything running ECM puts out a MASSIVE electronic signature. Even if a missile boat can not target the other mechs under the umbrella, they should be able to target the ECM equipped mech as soon as they activate their system. No LOS, no getting target lock, no need for TAG/NARC. They start transmitting ECM, they essentially turn their entire platform into one massive TAG/NARC. This goes beyond making little ripples on the screen in thermals: you turn on ECM, you should have every indirect fire system from ground-based to precision orbital strikes landing on your head. Generally speaking, if you want to use this IRL, you have to put it in an aircraft with big enough afterburners to bug out if the enemy has ADA missiles, hide it in a hole/canyon somewhere, or turn it on/off. This might be the answer to #4, as well: take the guard/counter switch out and make it an on/off switch. I also think it adds more interesting tactics/strategy to the match to make the ecm mechs have to decide risk/reward when to use it over the current situation I'm seeing where everyone without ECM clusters around the guys who do, and you have all the mechs from both sides colliding with each other in the middle of the map.

Quality of life when sniping: I'd love to be able to target mechs in LOS, regardless of ECM, even if we can't get lock or target info. It just makes it easier to keep track of the guy you're trying to shoot. Not a big deal since I'd probably have to get my crosshairs on the guy before the "r" button did anything, which is hard to do if you don't have a good way to spot him.