2028 replies to this topic

[Imagine Dragons]

Phatel, on 06 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

All I can hear is the sound of your streakcat rusting from the tears you are crying upon it.

ECM is fine, I have no mechs with it and find it to be a non-issue and adds a lot to depth and strategy. What it does do wich doesn't bother me in the least is limit the number of players I'm forced to carry because they want to hang 1k meters back and push 1 forcing the often smaller mechs to brawl because their atlas is busy not mitigating any damage at all. Oh it also got rid of the A1 build where you got a lock then ran around jumping in circles and killing people with no skill from screen shake and autoaim weapons.

So get a new mech, go out and shoot stuff. Pretty simple and enjoyable atm.

In which prior to ECM, the solution to streakcats was "teamwork"

Now the solution to ECM is "teamwork"

Ignoring the fact that both ECM and Streakcats require the same skill set...

"teamwork" is beginning to sound like code for "wait until something else replaces the current FOTM"

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 07 December 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[Mythweaver]

I agree with Phatel 100%. ECM isn't the problem. Fire and forget weapons will be relied upon much less now. Tag and Narc will finally be seen in the proper, usefull light they should be.

Learn some new skills and have fun.

Edited by Mythweaver, 12 December 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[DeaconW]

Appreciate the thoughtful response.

USMC Iceman, on 05 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

.

P#1: OR... You can have 3 ECM Units. This will give 1 Assult is best to say with the group with ECM and 2 Light Mechs Running ECM and ECCM together. ...

So in your vision you must have an Atlas-DC and 2 ECM Raven/Commando in every drop, thereby limiting the use of the other 5 slots to be devided among the other 22 mech variants in the game. Thank you for making my point.

Read this post and consider how "player 4 types" will and are abusing ECM...

http://mwomercs.com/...30#entry1554430

2. I am not going to be forced buy an ECM mech with MC or play without ECM and try to grind C-Bills in this game environment to get an ECM capable mech.

Q#2 Good Every one in A ECM mech is silly.

Yet, this is essentially what is happening. It would be foolish not to mount ECM on every mech in your group...which once again limits you to 4 specific variants to use out of 25.

P#3: LRMS and SSRMS are not poor tactical choices if you learn how to use them.

But the sliver of tactical use where they can actually be employed make them worthless when other, more accessible and continually useful weapons exist.

This ECM Change was brilliant in giving a very small but real world effect of how it works.

Except in the real world, ECM carriers are mostly unique and only focused on ECM and you HAVE to bring the rest of your fighting force to make it work. With PGI's version of ECM, the EA6B is combined with the B2 and F22 to make one unit.


And Yes you can say that every Great Fighter or Unit will have A ECM/ECCM system running at the same time but this is forcing TEAM work. And For 8 man Pre-mades this is GREAT.

I play in a premade almost exclusively...we had teamwork before. Now, there is serious incentive to drive 8 man Atlas D-DC because there is no incentive to balance the force...just maximize the number of platforms mounting ECM.

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

ATM, overall this is having a negative impact on gameplay. For PUGs, or 4 man groups with PUGs, since you have no idea what you will drop with, it almost forces everyone to select an ECM capable mech equipped with ECM. This limits or removes the ablity to run with a preferred mech and configuration, reducing the variety of game play and limiting tactics to hiding under the ECM umbrella.

For 8 man group drops it's even worse. After over a dozen drops, what we saw was:
-9 of the 12 had 2 ECM fast mechs and 6 assaults fit for short range punch. Of those 9, 7 had over 4 Atlas D-DCs!
-7 of the matches were straight out base rush under ECM cover, with no attempt to engage in any kind of tactics.
-4 of those matches had the enemy all crowded around their base under the ECM umbrella.
-1 match there was an actual engagement mid map with some attempt at movement and tactics.
-3 of the matches had an actual spread of mechs from lights to assaults that gave a balance of capabilities.

Add to that that the 8 man premade drops has no balancing mechanism as far as tonnage or composition, and you have a very static type of gameplay developing, where assaults, the Raven and the Cicada are the only things you will find most of the time, This limits the variety of gameplay possible, and also forces play based around a very limited composition and fit.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Pilotasso]

Balance by heat is not necessary, it will always come at a cost of heat sinks count and firepower.

Edited by Pilotasso, 06 December 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Cipher Alpha]

So I think ECM is pretty awesome if not OP. My Commando (pilot skills are maxed out and XL210 so going 146 Kph) now scores in the top 2 almost every PUG doing 400-500 damage with my 3 Streaks. The biggest problems I have now is I run out of my 200 ammo or I run into 2-3 ECM mechs so I can't counter them all but then I just run away for a bit and play disrupt behind my team or go cap.

[Josef Nader]

ECM is my favorite addition to this game to date, and I don't even run it. The game feels so much more interesting now, and this single mechanic has opened up a whole new world of depth.

A few little tweaks to other systems like TAG working at a longer range, or NARC being able to paint a target inside an ECM bubble (NARC needs -something-. It's useless right now) would do wonders to improve the intel-warfare system, but ECM is fine as it is.

[Nemesiis]

ECM is fine as it sits. Get some counters to ECM implemented, and take another look.

[Lupus Aurelius]

From TT:
"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."
Effects:
-Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed.
-Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
-Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is not affected by ECM.

[DeaconW]

Cipher Alpha, on 06 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

So I think ECM is pretty awesome if not OP. My Commando (pilot skills are maxed out and XL210 so going 146 Kph) now scores in the top 2 almost every PUG doing 400-500 damage with my 3 Streaks. The biggest problems I have now is I run out of my 200 ammo or I run into 2-3 ECM mechs so I can't counter them all but then I just run away for a bit and play disrupt behind my team or go cap.

And before the introduction of ECM it was the streakcat with these types of numbers...PGI needs to find the middle ground. Anyone who can read your stats (or Lupus's) and think that ECM is good as it is are the same as the streakcat defenders of last week...

[Walrus Jockey]

Balancing ECM against Heat is like reducing the fuel economy cars with GPS, because people with GPS use the highway more.

Yeah.... Neither makes any sense

[Firehound]

Mythweaver, on 06 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

I agree with Phatel 100%. ECM isn't the problem. Relying on fire and forget weapons will be relied upon much less now. Tag and Narc will finally be seen in the proper, usefull light they should be.

Learn some new skills and have fun.

Narc is still worthless bro. even worse then it was, since it doesn't work at all when inside ECM bubble. At least TAG works if your designating from outside the bubble.

@OP:

ECM isn't that big of a deal. If it kills your build, then your build wasn't very good to start with. If your a streakcat, put a targetlock module on it and counter that 25% penalty. Don't make ECM worthless by making it generate constant and rediculous amounts of heat.

On the commando at least, 2 tons is a lot to give up. 8% of the mechs weight is one module. ON the 2d, which is the streak/SRM carrier, that is Ammo+AMS, or just plain ammo. In fact, one of my first ECM 2ds eschewed AMS to fit the ECM on, which has come to ******* in the arse when I ended up getting my ECM jammed and eating a lot of LRMs with no defense.

The biggest issue I have right now is that Pubs don't listen. with ECM, it's more about actually looking for contacts being reported then staring at your compass for radar blips. Many of the losses I've had is from half the team ignoring the people going "OH **** OH ****, ATLASES. SO MANY ATLASES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP" and then the defenders getting rocked and saying "Why didn't anyone mark the atlases? Waaaaaaah." Or "Waaaah, my steakcat has to lock slower, and otherwise I would of rocked that atlas."

[deputydog]

current tag range is fine. I can run it on an Atlas-ddc and hit ecm mechs all day long. Anything that closes gets blinded anyway and if an ecm mech closes I just counter it so I can keep firing.
If you make it 750 the lrm boats will have no problems.

Leave it at 450 and give it a slightly longer duration.

ECM works great.. as long as both teams have it or if your team doesnt you operate with the knowledge and actively hunt visually for scouts. Disrupt and countering each other and shielding your team is great.

Just remove narc from the game or make it a counter..

Tag from wihin an ecm bubble should not work because your communication to the outside are jammed... that is the whole point.

IN TT you can lock an ecm mech at range but in close it become hidden and you get jammed. Im not sure why they changed it to hide stuff at range.. probably to give scouts a chance. In which case, it should only be available on lights mechs.

[Ronin13m]

Lets run thru this senario. Got the 2D commando and was running ECM the other night rolled up on a streakcat. Started to turn away remembered that I was running ECM and instead closed with him. He had no ECM on his side and once I had him in 180m I could take my time taking him apart with my commando. He tried to run but his mech was not fast enough.

Now he got no support even though the rest of his team was less then a gird away. I just became his shadow and he could do nothing. He could not target me and he could not get away.

This is where I do not believe this is a level playing field. The ECM Mech can use streaks and LRM's those with out can not. If you have teamwork going for you all the better. I know I blocked ECM for a friendly streakcat so that he could take my counterpart on the other team down.

I do not believe in any game a player should not be able to react or have a chance at fighting back. Granted I enjoyed taking the steakcat apart since he would have one shot me the day before. But that he could do nothing that does not seem correct. I thought the loss of control of your mech was why they removed the knock downs in the first place.

Now granted the A1 streakcat could go back to mech bay and refit to have some basic SRMs so that he could fight back. But this mech did not and he had no chance at fighting back.

[Marcus Tanner]

Not a Number, on 06 December 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

I don't believe ECM actually makes a mech invisible according to the BT rules. It only really affects anything within its range of 180M. Correct me if I'm wrong. If it would also prevent missiles from being tracked all the way to the target – without a TAG countering that – like I and some others suggested, it would still be effective against missile attacks for both the ECM equipped mech its nearby allies inside the bubble.

You are not correct.

In the tabletop by normal game rules, if your opponent does not mount Artemis or NARC or C3 or Beagle, then Guardian ECM does nothing. Nothing at all. Not even a little bit. It *only* counters dedicated electronic warfare equipment. It has no effect on TAG or targeting computers (see Total Warfare page 134, the current iteration of the tabletop rules).

A guidebook for additional rules called Tactical Operations offers additional rules for double-blind games (page 220-224), where it is possible to have unidentified sensor blips and the like. This is closer to what we are using in MWO. Under double-blind rules, if you have line of sight to a target then you can see it and spot it and target it with LRMs and the like, at no penalty, regardless of ECM. Visual spotting range (Mk1 eyeball) is pegged at 1800m under normal daylight conditions, and 900m under light fog or snowfall.

Under double-blind rules, it is possible to get a sensor blip for an enemy unit that is not in anyone's LOS. This is unreliable, but can go out as far as 720m (1080m with a Beagle Active Probe). Hills, but not other kinds of obstruction, block this indirect sensor blips completely. Hills do not block a Beagle Active Probe. Other forms of obstruction make it more difficult to detect things without LOS, even affecting Beagle (Hills don't even slow Beagle down, but trees/buildings make it harder, yes I know it's weird). Under foggy or rainy or dark conditions it is possible to not have LOS to a target even if there are no obstructions in the way, but sensors can be used to find such hidden units anyway.

In double-blind, ECM makes it harder to acquire sensor blips without LOS, but only so long as the spotting unit is within the jamming radius of the ECM suite. If the spotting unit has LOS, then ECM does nothing. If the spotting unit does not have LOS but is outside jamming range (180m), then ECM does nothing.

[Imagine Dragons]

AMS?

Is a defense in a Commando?

Ha?

[Marcus Tanner]

deputydog, on 06 December 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Tag from wihin an ecm bubble should not work because your communication to the outside are jammed... that is the whole point.

TAG doesn't transmit anything except the laser beam.

How it works is that LRMs have sensors on them. When they see the little red dot on the enemy unit they home in on the dot.

LRMs don't care why the dot is there or where it's coming from. The TAG unit itself is not in communication with any other unit or with any LRMs. It makes a dot and the LRMs follow the dot.

ECM in the tabletop doesn't work on the LRM guidance systems that see the TAG dot because ECM isn't supposed to disrupt targeting computers (Total Warfare page 134).

[Beodin]

wow, i can't believe how much of a ***** you all have for ECM, ECM is ruining this game! Why? Because now the only tactic is to stealth run the other teams base. That's it, that's all people do anymore. OH, and yes i realize that the defense is just sitting in your base and waiting for them, but where is the fun in that. I like maneuvering and actually fighting mechs not just "quick stealth run to the enemy base!"

Oh, and PS, I like many other players am currently abusing the hell out of ECM (because you have to have ECM in your team now to win)

Edited by Beodin, 06 December 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Marcus Tanner]

This game, I think, was intended to be a video game representation of Battletech. It was supposed to be as close as possible to the tabletop in as many ways as possible while bending to the reality of the different platform. This interpretation of ECM doesn't fit with the tabletop or the background. In the 3050 era, ECM isn't nearly common enough to be employed in every 8 or every 12 mechs, so making it central to MechWarrior Online is a diversion from the universe and other games. It's certainly a game-changer, but it would *not* be a game-changer if the intention were to make this a Battletech video game.

For example, ask a few of the real fanatics how often ECM gets mentioned in the background and novelizations of the universe. You'll see that it's a relatively uncommon detail, often an afterthought. Even if you think it's a great addition to the game, the current ECM mechanics are a poor representation of Battletech.

Why go through all that trouble to stick to canon only to toss that goal away now?

--- "The haters all play streakcats"

Never played a streakcat. I've tried streaks on my new COM-2D and don't find them particularly fun. A reduction in streak damage (from 5 to 4, perhaps less if necessary) would be more than sufficient. A similar change to LRMs would be fine. It's helpful to have crutch weapons in this game, for for new players to be able to hit things and deal damage, and secondly for those of us with poor frame rate or poor ping values to be able to enjoy the game (I have poor frame rate but great ping).

I'd be more than happy to go back to pre-ECM with streaks at 3 damage for the pair and LRMs at 1.2 each.

--- "Just kill the ECM-carriers!"

When you see 3 or 4 or 5 of them on the other team, that stops being practical. It presumes that every team will have or maybe 2 ECM carriers, and that those are lights. It's also difficult to kill an Atlas when every other assault and heavy mech is standing right beside them, particularly if you're having trouble communicating.

--- "It's fine, but reduce the range a bit."

That will be of only limited use against teams that consist of 1/2 or more ECM-carriers, and I do indeed expect this to be the norm as people are currently saving up for their AS7-D-DCs or CDA-3Ms or RVN-3Ls, each of which require c-bills that are hard to save up in 2 days' grinding if you actually have things to do with your day.

Reducing the range would definitely make it less powerful, but the 180m range is canon and there are other ways of reducing the impact.

Even if the range were reduced down to 60m, the value of "cloaking" that mech alone would make the variants capable of mounting ECM vastly superior to their fellows, and the problem remains.

--- "Counter it with your own ECM carriers."

That's a great reason to make sure that every mech you and your friends drive has ECM. It is a poor reason to think that ECM will start to die down. If someone said that the streak-cats aren't overpowered because you can bring your own streak-cat to counter it, then that would be a poor reason to think you'll see fewer streak-cats in the future.

--- "Just give it a week and the people who are just trying out the new thing will switch back to their old favorite mech."

Why is that? If you drove an awesome or an atlas (or any brawler, really) before and have since switched to an AS7-D-DC, why switch back? If you drove a Jenner and switched to a Cicada, why go back? If you already drove a Commando or Raven, you'd be crazy to use anything but ECM.

Once everyone else figures out how much more powerful it is to bring nothing but ECM to the table, why go back to a less-effective unit?

--- "Its great that LRM-equipped mechs are rare on the field now."

TAG and NARC exist because LRMs are actually supposed to be relatively common pieces of equipment. A quick look at the concept art shows that 7 of the 18 chassis noted come with LRMs represented on them, which suggests that just over 1/3 mechs are expected to carry them (2 or 3 in every match). 17 of the 44 variants available (not counting founders' mechs) carry LRMs, again over 1/3. In terms of LRM tubes, you should expect about 60 in any given match (about 2 LRM boats like a Catapult, more if you want to make effective use of TAG or NARC).

LRMs are a significant aspect of this game's role warfare, because the fire support / scout dynamic is both great fun and good tactical coordination in this game's rough terrain. It would be nice if scouts didn't have to run ECCM to function.

[Josef Nader]

Ronin13m, on 06 December 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

-words-

It's a fair point, but I'd counter with "he shouldn't mount 6 streak missiles on the same mech." Diversify your build, slap some dumbfire SRMs onto your A1 so you can at least fight back. If you're going to boat weapons that can be completely shut down by ECM, you'll get what's coming to you.

[BLUPRNT]

ECM talk is EVERYWHERE so forgive me for not reading EVERYTHING, but the one thing I have not seen yet is the downside of using it.
Meaning- everything I know of in BT has a negative to using it, weight, slots, heat, etc, and etc. Even Sarna on most occassions mentions flaws or consequences for most BT tech but ECM seems to have no repercussions (except 1.5 tons) and only perks. This seems to me, to be the balance issue of ECM. If you can have it without sacrifice who wouldn't. Call me Ignorant.

Edited by BLUPRNT, 06 December 2012 - 11:48 AM.