2028 replies to this topic

[JagdCrab]

JagdMeister, on 08 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I won't rant. BAP should counter ECM for the BAP carrier, and those bennis should later pass to the team when C3 comes on line.

Originally ECM was counter-mere for BAP.

[Nebuzar]

Snuglninja, on 08 December 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

I disagree SGT ecm should stop bap,narc, and artemis, that in itself is pretty good. It should not hide targets from radar or stop lock on.

I agree to a point.

BAP and NARC should be stopped by ECM but that should then negate 75% of the effects of ECM on the mechs normal sensors since BAP and NARC are essentially sensor boosters. Artemis is something else, and since missiles shouldnt have very strong sensors in them the Artemis should be negated when it enters the ECM bubble but not before then.

ECM strength I feel is too strong but if BAP, NARC and TAG worked properly to counter it then the strengh as it stands would be fine for blocking missile lock.

ECM should be nerfed in the effect of stealthing other mechs, the strengh of stealth should weaken depending on the size and number of mechs in the bubble.

[LtnWirsch]

First of all, if someone "official" of the team reads this, i wanna thank u. Its my first post, and i really dont do posts at all. The ECM does at first something: it lets u chose a role and it improves teamplay. There may be players who are stuck to use game mechanics to their advantage; they are now forced to reconsider their loadout. I just got my Commando with ECM and SRM, hes dealing a lot of damage. But hes not invincible, and he relies on gettin backup or stalking ONE other mech. Im looking forward to the other patches, as they will make me think about my choosings/loadouts all the time. I think, that this ECM patch was a right step towards bringing more complexity to the game without changing its playability even for newcomers. Thx, and greetings!

[Tuku]

I was just spotting for an LRM boat buddy of mine and realized something about the way that ECM works. It stacks so that one counter ECM is not enough if there are more than 1 ECM equipped mech within 180m.

My sugestion is that you make it so that it dose not stack....


4 d-dc atlas with ECM roll in....1 raven with counter should be able to nullify their ecm provided that that raven is within 180 of all of them.

[GazT4R]

Just a little idea I pondered....

Intermittent radar reading if your one of your teams mechs is equiped with BAP would be something to consider, giving you enough time to lock and fire a volley (say 4 seconds) then the trace disappearing for 4 seconds (possibly more, maybe 8 seconds) before returning. This would not negate ECM but give an interference effect with on/off reading. This would then not negate LRM fire altogether but give limited windows of oppotunity. Without BAP you would get no reading at all as currrently.

ECM would still negate ECM totally as it is now if countering.

How's that sound?

I'll reittereate from another post I made that I don't think ECM is OP as it is and it mean you have to think, rather than fools rush in, on the field. I just thought this was an idea discuss.

Edited by GazT4R, 08 December 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Grey Black]

Weighing in with my 2 cbills, take it or leave it as you will.

ECM is definitely not OP. There are definitely a number of ways to get around it and it is a welcome addition to the battlefield. HOWEVER, I say this as a CTF-4X player, i.e. a Dakkaphract. I decided to jump on my Founders Catapult (built as an LRM boat) to see the difference and, while I did enjoy that I could still get locks against people, as soon as an ECM came into my general direction I was boned, making it impossible to get a lock on anything outside that radius.

As such, I'd like to make the following suggestion: Keep the "Anything within ECM's range can't be locked onto". That's great. However, if an ECM mech should get in on an LRM boat (with LOS of course), I would like to append that you can still lock onto those things outside the ECM bubble. I realize it's not canon, but it would go a long way towards making LRMs viable again. As is, it does feel like anything with a lock on is not viable.

My 2 cbills. Discuss as you wish.

[Ronin Starwalker]

Simple way:

Put a charge bar on ECM like jumpjets. It is used up fairly quickly for either mode and recharges slowly. Pilot modules could tweak these things. Rewards good tactical piloting with teamwork not spamming. Using it for stealth bubble on one charge may only get you and protected mechs across say half the map before a slow recharge.

Guess what? If you decided to go for a stealth base rush and used charge up and get sprung.by an enemy mech with fully charged ECM to counter you are in trouble so take your pick mechwarrior! This idea also supports ECM stacking as your are basically having more charge on your team.

Please support this ECM charge bar idea. Thanks.

Edited by Ronin Starwalker, 08 December 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[Flash Yoghurt]

I can only join the chorus of those claiming ECM is op. It made Streaks (which were op before) and LRMS (which were perfectly fine) utterly useless. Every single game either devolves into a big chaotic brawl, or ends in an early stealth cap.
The team using more ECM has the upper Hand most of the time, since they are unaffected by there enmies ECM while still crippling them.

But the worst thing is the ping issue (escpecially for us europeans): Every ECM affecting you massively raises ping, making aiming with non-lock weapons (those with lock are alredy negated by the ECM) nearly impossible. Try hitting an ECM Raven or Cicada with a ping over 400...

[Argent Usher]

"ECM is here and personally I can’t wait to ruin some streak cats day with this excellent piece of equipment." -Matt Newman

Hmm you really solved the problem, the same people running ECM laggshielded Ravens and Comms now.

[Marcus Tanner]

Grey Black, on 08 December 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

ECM is definitely not OP. There are definitely a number of ways to get around it and it is a welcome addition to the battlefield. HOWEVER, I say this as a CTF-4X player, i.e. a Dakkaphract. I decided to jump on my Founders Catapult (built as an LRM boat) to see the difference and, while I did enjoy that I could still get locks against people, as soon as an ECM came into my general direction I was boned, making it impossible to get a lock on anything outside that radius.


As such, I'd like to make the following suggestion: Keep the "Anything within ECM's range can't be locked onto". That's great. However, if an ECM mech should get in on an LRM boat (with LOS of course), I would like to append that you can still lock onto those things outside the ECM bubble. I realize it's not canon, but it would go a long way towards making LRMs viable again. As is, it does feel like anything with a lock on is not viable.

Guardian ECM preventing target locks is non-canon.

I play with LRMs because of low frame rate, as my many outings with lasers and ballistics tend to end poorly. TAG on my mech has not helped in the games in which I have tried it (I have trouble keeping the reticule on target because of my low frame rate).

As someone who PUGs, it's remarkably difficult to get teamwork going let alone find someone with both TAG+ECM for spotting.

Is there a way for me to "adapt" to ECM or should I stop playing?

Perhaps I should go with an A1 Catapult with 6xSRM6?

[StUffz]

Marcus Tanner, on 08 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Guardian ECM preventing target locks is non-canon.

I play with LRMs because of low frame rate, as my many outings with lasers and ballistics tend to end poorly. TAG on my mech has not helped in the games in which I have tried it (I have trouble keeping the reticule on target because of my low frame rate).

As someone who PUGs, it's remarkably difficult to get teamwork going let alone find someone with both TAG+ECM for spotting.

Is there a way for me to "adapt" to ECM or should I stop playing?

Perhaps I should go with an A1 Catapult with 6xSRM6?

Sorry, but read again the definition of Guardian) ECM:

Quote

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

ECM works as intended.

Edited by StUffz, 08 December 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Pharsalus]

Ecm is awful. It doesn't add a layer to gameplay it takes one away. Lrm suppression no longer exists and have you seen a organized group with less than four Atlas DDCs? I can't afford one of these behemoths and am not sure i want to, without some kind of drop wieght limits the game has just become a big atlas brawl party, role warfare is a joke when every group just clusters together and crawls forward.

[DrBunji]

Mordin Ashe, on 07 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

This isn't possible since closed beta. Maybe you need to grow up a bit? Or maybe you need to "L2P", since you evidently get crushed by LRMs/Streaks, and both are rather easy to avoid... Hope there will be less people like you in future on the forums.

Anyway, I gave it some thought and I hope the devs will not nerf the ECM too much. It adds so much depth for light Mechs and it created a great gameplay environment for them, it would be bad to loose it. I especially like the two mode system and switching. Maybe such modes can be introduced for the LRMs already mentioned as well? Lets say, one for indirect fire and one for direct fire? Same could go fo SSRMs, one more for homed fire, another for dumb fire. Since the system is already in place, why not to use it. It should add more depth for the homed missiles as well, and counter some of the trolls, like the one I just quoted.

No streakboats weren't easy to avoid, since they two-shot any lightmech, so running into one around an unexpected corner was basically a instant K.O. And what isn't possible since closed beta? Perhaps you will recall that the artemis fiasco was during open beta. And even after that hotfix most games hinged on which team had the most lrms, at least if the teams were somewhat balanced in skill.

And 1) LRM's can allready be dumb fired, as late as yesterday i killed a jenner that shutdown to avoid locks with that and 2), dumbfire SSRM's are called SRM's.

Also calling anyone a troll if they dont agree with you is just great isn't it? It saves you the effort of actully having to consider any other viewpoints than your own.

Edited by DrBunji, 08 December 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

Update on preliminary feedback as a solo pugger.

As expected, more ecm mechs on the field and increasing daily it seem.
Generally, gameplay remains more simplistic than pre-ecm i.e. blobbling & brawlfests

Only good thing is that some solo puggers are gravitating towards grouping, casual or otherwise.

Game is boring as hell for me right now.

[StUffz]

Pharsalus, on 08 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Ecm is awful. It doesn't add a layer to gameplay it takes one away. Lrm suppression no longer exists and have you seen a organized group with less than four Atlas DDCs? I can't afford one of these behemoths and am not sure i want to, without some kind of drop wieght limits the game has just become a big atlas brawl party, role warfare is a joke when every group just clusters together and crawls forward.

How about focus down the DDC instead of complaining how awful ECM is?

And just a note. Wait until Clan mechs are coming because ECM is then baseline from light to assault mechs.

[Umbra8]

StUffz, on 08 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Sorry, but read again the definition of Guardian) ECM:



ECM works as intended.

Actually, I did read it Stuffz. You seem to be missing an important section of that quote. Let me post it in it's entirety:


"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]

The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]"



The variant we see in mechwarrior is more in line with the experimental Angel ECM Suite, not guardian. Notably, the guardian did nothing outside of 180 meters, including preventing missile locks, and its ability to reduce detection is more in line with later developed Stealth Armor. Yep, you could fire your LRM's just fine if you were outside 180 meters.



Definitely not cannon.

Edited by Umbra8, 08 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Not exactly about the issue, but something does not ring true here: http://mwomercs.com/...-review-dec-7th

"We also added ECM to absolutely no complaints"

This was posted on the 7th! PGI, do you not read the forums? How can you say in all honesty, 3 days after the patch, that "We also added ECM to absolutely no complaints" ?!?!?!?!?

Regardless what side of the issue you are on, no one can say that the above is an honest comment by PGI, and we should all be concerned. Either they did not even bother to review the threads, especially this one, or they out and out purposely misrepresent the community reaction to ECM

[RayBotiiC]

Having played 40 some matches as a light mech pilot since the patch I've got a little feedback regarding ECM.

Tone it down or make it so ECM carrying mechs cannot also use streaks.
ECM is a big enough bonus as it is but when I'm trying to keep ECM carrying lights off my teammates or myself it's nearly impossible when they can also no skill lock me down and almost fire and forget. There are other lights right PGI? We'd like to option to play them as scouts/recon and skirmishers. Not as pure target practice and brawlers right?

Having tried it, I can say that with respect to piloting a light, ECM + streaks is the closest thing to easy mode I've encountered in game so far and it will need some adjustment. I can't carry ECM on my preferred scout and as a result have had to give up streaks. Call it annoying, call this overreacting if you want, but I'm not keen on being told what mech I can use for my role of choice.

Having run w/ ECM and streaks I have to say it's too stupid easy. But I guess I'll have to run it right? Adapt... no it's adopt or die at the moment.

[StUffz]

Umbra8, on 08 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Actually, I did read it Stuffz. You seem to be missing an important section of that quote. Let me post it in it's entirety:


"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]

The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]"



The variant we see in mechwarrior is more in line with the experimental Angel ECM Suite, not guardian. Notably, the guardian did nothing outside of 180 meters, including preventing missile locks, and its ability to reduce detection is more in line with later developed Stealth Armor. Yep, you could fire your LRM's just fine if you were outside 180 meters.



Definitely not cannon.

Do you know that 6 Hex Fields are equal to 180 meters?

Guardian ECM game Rule:

Quote

The Inner Sphere Guardian ECM weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical spaces. It has an operational range of six hexes.^[5][6] The Guardian ECM Suite has a defensive Battle Value of 61.^[7]
The Clan ECM Suite system weighs 1 ton and occupies a single critical space. In every other way it's identical to the Inner Sphere version.^[8][9]

Angel ECM:

Quote

The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

As you can see, both are only effecting mechs that are within 180 meters, regardless if you are using Angel or Guardian. The only benefit that Angel has is that is also is effective vs. bloodhound beagle, Artemis V and streak.

This said, maybe the devs need to remove Streak from the coding but LRM are rendered useless as long as the mechs are bubbled within 180 meters the ECM mech.

Edited by StUffz, 08 December 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[SVK Puskin]

I am not happy about the last patch, ECM is very powerfull equipment, it should works only for mechs mounted with it, i do not like the shield which covers close friendly mechs, you made LRM support very ineffective and making the Gauss rifle fragile you made me sad twice but the case should protect the Gauss from explosion. You totaly ruined my mech lab becuase i am using LRM boat Atlas or the lasers and the Gauss Atlas .