2028 replies to this topic

[Abivard]

before ecm it took zero skill to spot an enemy mech,
what one person on your team saw everyone saw.
it took zero skill to target, you just had to keep hitting target key until desired mech appeared.
took no skill at all to get a missile lock.
it was simple as can be to focus fire or call a target.

everyone had it so easy until ECM

Can we make it so the enemy mech can't move or fire its weapons and is automatically targeted as soon as i enter game and i can do alpha strikes across the maps without heat, but am invulnerable to return fire seems to be what a lot of folks really want ;p

[Xendojo]

abivard, on 10 December 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

before ecm it took zero skill to spot an enemy mech,
what one person on your team saw everyone saw.
it took zero skill to target, you just had to keep hitting target key until desired mech appeared.
took no skill at all to get a missile lock.
it was simple as can be to focus fire or call a target.

everyone had it so easy until ECM

Can we make it so the enemy mech can't move or fire its weapons and is automatically targeted as soon as i enter game and i can do alpha strikes across the maps without heat, but am invulnerable to return fire seems to be what a lot of folks really want ;p

AMEN BRUTHA!!!! TELL IT 'ROUND THE MOUNTAIN!!!!

Same exact thing happened when R&R got implemented. People were forced to realize that "Oh hey, these uber-mechs i'm used to building are incredibly expensive". Now it's the lack of easy-mode targeting and/or easy-mode scouting that has people up in arms. Yep it's part of the Beta experience, you don't know how easy you had it until it gets harder. Or rather it's "Oh hey, I have to actually try now to get a shot off with my LRM/SSRM." Hope you're packing some back up weapons.

Edited by Xendojo, 10 December 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[TheSteelRhino]

abivard, on 10 December 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

before ecm it took zero skill to spot an enemy mech,
what one person on your team saw everyone saw.
it took zero skill to target, you just had to keep hitting target key until desired mech appeared.
took no skill at all to get a missile lock.
it was simple as can be to focus fire or call a target.

everyone had it so easy until ECM

Can we make it so the enemy mech can't move or fire its weapons and is automatically targeted as soon as i enter game and i can do alpha strikes across the maps without heat, but am invulnerable to return fire seems to be what a lot of folks really want ;p

Whoa. What are you smoking? You couldtotally hide before. Its called using terrain to break lune of sight. Its made the game EASIER to the point of silliness. Except its not funny.

Again the problem with ecm is that there are no negatives to running it

U dontgive up anything. Every other weapons system has a drawback plus advantage.

Some are high heat, explosive ammo, limited range

Ecm can in no way hurt you or be a detriment to your team
And it can cover your entire force for 1.5 tons? Thats THE most powerful item in game right now. Hell i want my 3 srm 6 113 kph hbk 4 sp back then

As i have previously proposed ecm should only be able to completely mask a unit that is not radiating electronic signals

In short. If u run ecm and leave radar or ams(which is radar guided) on then the opfor should see the radiating mech as an unknown target until visual id is possible But even though its unknown u should still be able to see this.

Now of course your own targetting and ams is impacted but "sensor invisibility" should come at a price.
How do i get this idea? Ever see " incoming missile" pop up? We obviously have threat warning detection. Therefore we are picking up something

And bap should be able to burn through but at reduced range

There a drawback, and partial count that everyone could mount.
Nothing

[DeaconW]

abivard, on 10 December 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

before ecm it took zero skill to spot an enemy mech,
what one person on your team saw everyone saw.
it took zero skill to target, you just had to keep hitting target key until desired mech appeared.
took no skill at all to get a missile lock.
it was simple as can be to focus fire or call a target.

everyone had it so easy until ECM

Can we make it so the enemy mech can't move or fire its weapons and is automatically targeted as soon as i enter game and i can do alpha strikes across the maps without heat, but am invulnerable to return fire seems to be what a lot of folks really want ;p

Nice straw man arguement and blatantly false skill assessments. You completely fail to understand the complaints against ECM. If you are an ECM guy...YOU are the easy mode proponent right now. If you can't have enough objectivity to see that, well, I guess you can't be helped. Let me be clear, I believe ECM should be in the game, just not the uber-ECM it is now. LRM's and SSRM's are a significant part of battletech and MW...look at the default config of dozens of mechs on the BT wiki's if you don't believe me. The current incarnation of ECM favors one style of play and 4 specific mech chassis. Are you really going to state that this is good for the game overall? Not for YOU, specifically...but for the GAME.

[Thirteen]

BTW when i coop with my fellow raven with ecm, my 4 ssrm2 and 2 lrm15 are awesome. 800 dmg per battle is normal. Eleminating enemy ecm is easy. I can shoot anyone and stay undetected. I can support fire my ecm teammate.
In such situations i've got huge advantage. That's why im talking about OP. I didn't change anything at my Cat-c1.
with that ecm my kdr 5.45 and grows.

[Zyllos]

Honestly, the implementation of ECM seems ok. Just the numbers seem off.

- Make 1 Counter ECM counter all Disrupt ECM in range. I personally think making 1 Counter ECM work against all Disrupt ECM a big one because then it isn't always about fielding more ECMs, but instead using your Disrupt ECM to scout and not run into another equipped ECM mech to be countered and open for locking weaponry. This also doesn't make the Atlas D-DC team (4+ ECMs) just invincible against lock-on weapons because your team didn't decide to take 5+ other ECM mechs. This is really a way to give a reason for a team to take mechs other than ECM but to take at least 1 ECM mech for disruption.

- Make ECM reduce sensor range by 50%, not 75%. ECM is ment for scouting, not keeping certain mechs locked out of firing. Even at 400m sensor range, LRM users will only have 220m worth of workable distance to lock on with missiles while SSRMs will only have 90m.

- Let the BAP display some indication that an ECM equipped mech is within normal sensor range (according to Sarna saying BAP is jammed by ECM but indication is notified). Maybe give BAP users "pings" (kinda like how Thermal Mode shows the ping sweep, which seems like to me PGI is already testing out) so they can spot where ECM mechs are physically at. Once teams start to only take 1 or 2 ECMs, having BAP which gives pings to physical locations could be used to detect where ECM mechs are located at so you could chase the ECM mechs and destroy them with direct fire weapons. Then you might see teams start to take no ECM and work together with BAP users to counter ECM.

- As many have said, fix the issues with hit detection. This will really help out in the department of having light mechs survive a disproportional amount of fire according to their weight. But this is obvious, just extremely important and I am sure PGI is working on.

Edited by Zyllos, 10 December 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Tokimonatakanimekat]

D1irte, on 10 December 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Then try a LRM boat vs 4 ECMs. Good luck.

1000 dmg and 7 assists with my 2 lightbros who run ECM's in counter mode and TAG enemies for me.
Problems, pug?
Oh, yes, you have no team to play with in this TEAM-BASED game.

DeaconW, on 10 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

You are joking, right? Because turning MWO into a FPS with no strategy is *exactly* what ECM is doing...

Lolololol. ECMs made game more tactical than any other module introduced before.

D1irte, on 10 December 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I want to punch those ******* who says ,that new tactic is to find and kill ECM users.
Have you tried to kill Raven who is running 120 KPH (With out Streaks and LRMs)? And 2nd who uses ECMs is ATLAS,
(Tho still ravens are much harder to kill because of LAG shield)...

I eat Ravens with my Atlas for breakfast.

Btw, there is one major issue with ECM - pugs can't even shoot something that they can't lock on.

[Jack Gallows]

Quick reply from phone till I have more time for a more in depth post.

ECM should be a useful tool in skilled hands. Issue: ECM requires no skill.

But TAG you say? Please stand there so you can be a free kill, or cause your LRM fire to miss when you get flushed out by other ECM mechs. TAG does nothing to overcome how unbalanced ECM is currently.

[LynxFury]

[color=#959595]Make ECM reduce sensor range by 50%, not 75%.[/color]

Agreed, even 25% which would counter BAP is worth considering, especially if a module to reduce detection comes along.

[StalaggtIKE]

As I said before, revert ECM to original BT lore. It should work as the following:

Quote

180 meter range of interference of radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors (guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems)

Which means:

• All mechs should be able to be locked on by LRM/SSRM unless within the 180m ECM bubble.

The current ECM suite is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo. Stealth armor renders battle armor invisible to every active probe. Until PGI implements stealth armor, ECM should not cause any interference to anyone outside of 180 meters of the ECM equipped battlemech.





TL;DR - The current system is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo, thus it is broken and not working as it should.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 December 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[steelblueskies]

waits for c3 to not be free and baked in, instead taking a ton and a crit slot for slaves, and more for master units, while baking in tag effects as per rules.

if you can disrupt it, i should be able to drop that crap for moar firepower..
you wanna scout then eat the weight and crit for it, or use chat to report visual contacts.

too much isn't in right now, and it's giving a wonky state to new inclusions like this. worse its not restricted to view cone, rather 360. you think that "equip ecm" , maybe press j once in a while is more skillful than streaks or lrms, or spotting???
you can run into the dropship on frozen, park and afk, and be useful with this crap as is.. it's like loss rewards. its candy for being present, not for actions you are taking. even the worst lrm boater in the world has to perform more actions than that to do anything useful, and at least with lrms you could break lock and shield from the negative effect with proper cover.
this crap goes through walls.

you can dc on cap with it equipped and provide a shield zone.

it works even if you aren't there. that's not gameplay, that's a "just plain better" system.

that said we cannot evaluate based on would be, will be, or may be( so even acknowledging issues due to netcode, etc. as it stands it sits out of line).

can it be worked around? absolutely. can it be worked around without either superior teamwork, firepower, or boating punishing team loadouts that make base rushing preferable to fighting for both teams yes. can 99% of the playerbase run a machine, net connection, luck and skill level to turn that tide consistently solo? no.

[Death Mallet]

ECM is working well. Let it rest for a couple patches and then tweak it later if need be once the environment has fully adjusted to it.

[Jack Gallows]

Also, it's obvious modules and commander abilities are supposed to help counter ECM. Issue: these abilities are not yet implemented. I continue to support PGI, however it feels questionable to add something to test that is so unbalanced with the need to generate funds from the cash shop. Yes, it is "open beta" but to add a feature without appropriate counters doesn't engender the desire to spend real life money to support the game. It gives the illusion (however accurate or not) that internal testing is possibly inadequate or that items aren't coming in a well though out manner. Im not a game designer, so this might be taken with a grain of salt, especially because I can't guess all that goes on that we can't see.

As ever I shall remain patient, as I still greatly enjoy MW:O. Hoping ECM and future fixes work out well

[Badgerbanger]

Stuff it.

ECM is essential to win now.

I am joining the FOTM OP builders and buying only mechs from now on that take ECM and multiple SSRMs.

I am going to exploit the heck out of these OP builds like every other sad case in the game and forums who is claiming ECM is balanced so they can pad their K/D ratio and fill their pockets with cbills every game

[Caboose30]

The problem with ECM is that there are no real sensors to reduce to speak of. Visually based targeting, which is what we have, should not be interruptible by ECM, because the computer uses the mech's silhouette to identify it. Not radar, or anything else that requires interpreting a reflective electronic signal. So, put the current targeting system back to where it was, and give us all a 400-500m sensor bubble that doesn't depend on LOS. *Then* using ECM will actually mean something.

[StUffz]

JuiceCaboose, on 10 December 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

The problem with ECM is that there are no real sensors to reduce to speak of. Visually based targeting, which is what we have, should not be interruptible by ECM, because the computer uses the mech's silhouette to identify it. Not radar, or anything else that requires interpreting a reflective electronic signal. So, put the current targeting system back to where it was, and give us all a 400-500m sensor bubble that doesn't depend on LOS. *Then* using ECM will actually mean something.

It's called thermal heat view and what you else need are calm fingers and iron sights.

Edited by StUffz, 10 December 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[Latvanis]

Death Mallet, on 10 December 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

ECM is working well. Let it rest for a couple patches and then tweak it later if need be once the environment has fully adjusted to it.

I will tell you my prediction of adjustion.
You will only see Ravens ,Commandos and CICADAS with ECM, no other light mech will be picked.
Meds will disapear. Cat LRM boats will dissapear too (Only some LRM might stay on atlases to punish enemy by not using enough ECMs) ,only SRM cat builds will run around and Dual AC20 bullshits.
Dragons will exctint like dinasours. (They just have no pourpose in this game ,same as the mediums for now)
If there wont be a drop weight limit ,then there is no point picking catapracht ,awesome ,because atlas is just better ,and even with ECM. What can you ask more?
Atleast this is what i have already noticed to the game play changes.
For *** sake , I even miss "INCOMING MISILES" text. And i have not even heard voice for it.
As I miss tripping... Are they even bring back tripping? Or they got rid of it for good?

Edited by D1irte, 10 December 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Please explain why I would not want to add ECM to (every mech)? What are the disadvantages of using it?

In case you are a little slow, let me explain how SSRM's, and LRMs are not perfect, explain their disadvantages.


SSRM's: Have a maximum distance of about 300M, no other weapon is that short except small lasers, and that makes a difference. SSRM's require lock, and if the target is moving through cover, you cannot use them at all. It required more work than gain to be a streakcat, very true, but when I ran with friends, we could stay close to cover and wait for the streakcat to "lol I can kill entire team by myself", and just pop out, become the target, and get down, he couldn't do a thing, plus if we engaged him beyond 300, he can't do anything at all. Like LRM's, SSRM's are very strong in their element, but weak outside of it, unlike ECM, you can counter it with tactics and the correct weaponry. ECM requires ECM to counter. Lastly ammo is very expensive, although personally I dislike balance by C-Bills, this fact remains.

LRM's: Once again, have an effective range, if something is in your face, then you better hope a teammate will come back to help you, because your 4 medium lasers is probably less 'heat' than your opponent is packing. Locking on isn't an issue with these weapons because of the distance, but because of the distance, the target can also get to cover. This promotes smart playing, staying close, and being mindful of cover and open spaces. 8 mans can drop with 8D-DCs and walk over the hill and live because LRM's can't lock fast enough to kill them. LRM launchers are usually required in a large amount to be effective, requiring a lot of space and tons, and the ammo, especially Artemis, is very very expensive. Most LRMers use the free 75% re-arm because if they don't, they can lose money on ammo alone.

People are quick to knock this "skill-less weapons" I use 2 SSRM 2's on my Raven-3L (which was once a Jenner, because I preferred it, now the 3L is by far superior). I really really enjoy killing skill-less ECM scouts who think they are excellent because they can't be targeted and think they have lag shield (lag shield is not a problem for me).

So there you go, I named off some disadvantages for the ez-mode weapons, tell me the disadvantages of ECM, why would I not want to add it to (this mech)?

[Murdalizer]

Tokimonatakanimekat, on 10 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

1000 dmg and 7 assists with my 2 lightbros who run ECM's in counter mode and TAG enemies for me.
Problems, pug?
Oh, yes, you have no team to play with in this TEAM-BASED game.


Lolololol. ECMs made game more tactical than any other module introduced before.




I eat Ravens with my Atlas for breakfast.

Btw, there is one major issue with ECM - pugs can't even shoot something that they can't lock on.

And this is the problem in a nutshell, if a 2-3 man grp slaughters pugs by using a 1,5 ton equitment...theres a balance problem.

and please dont use that get a group yourself and get on TS routine...its not gonna fly. if PGI cant manage to make Public games fun and somewhat balanced, this game is gonna fail, Public game is supposed to draw people into the mech univese and make them want more, maybe even join a house or merc outfit, thats how a game should work right?

Right now public games is a mess and ECM, in its current form, made it worse.

[Caboose30]

D1irte, on 10 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

I will tell you my prediction of adjustion.
You will only see Ravens ,Commandos and CICADAS with ECM, no other light mech will be picked.
Meds will disapear. Cat LRM boats will dissapear too (Only some LRM might stay on atlases to punish enemy by not using enough ECMs) ,only SRM cat builds will run around and Dual AC20 bullshits.
Dragons will exctint like dinasours. (They just have no pourpose in this game ,same as the mediums for now)
If there wont be a drop weight limit ,then there is no point picking catapracht ,awesome ,because atlas is just better ,and even with ECM. What can you ask more?
Atleast this is what i have already noticed to the game play changes.
For *** sake , I even miss "INCOMING MISILES" text. And i have not even heard voice for it.
As I miss tripping... Are they even bring back tripping? Or they got rid of it for good?

I say strike ECM for now, put it on the shelf as is. Get us sensors, even if they have limited functionality, and then bring back ECM with the mechanic that if you're affected by it, the way targeting works now is your fallback.