2028 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Thirteen, on 10 December 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

BTW when i coop with my fellow raven with ecm, my 4 ssrm2 and 2 lrm15 are awesome. 800 dmg per battle is normal. Eleminating enemy ecm is easy. I can shoot anyone and stay undetected. I can support fire my ecm teammate.
In such situations i've got huge advantage. That's why im talking about OP. I didn't change anything at my Cat-c1.
with that ecm my kdr 5.45 and grows.

THIS ^^^!

Death Mallet, on 10 December 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

ECM is working well. Let it rest for a couple patches and then tweak it later if need be once the environment has fully adjusted to it.

See above.

[USMC Iceman]

Due to 90% of what I read seems to be in sarcasm let me join in.

When they are done fixing ECM to make it so you can find a corner in a circle. They need to Nerf Hills, Buildings, Caves, And get back to Nerfing LRMS, SSRMS, AC 2-20 PPC, ERPPC, all lasers, and Give us TAG and Narc missile beacons so we can all play tag and get a participation award at the end of the battle.


ECM is bad due to it forces Team work and support players to run TAG and Scouts to See the ECM Covered units so the other team can shoot. Some players can't shoot unless there is a RED BOX over the unit. They Can't see the other units unless it has a RED Triangle over their head. And most of all they can't use Teamspeak much less teamwork to win a game.

SAY yes to easy button wins and ECM is not easy. Easy to use? I don't know if it was I can't see why every one doesn't just run a mech with ECM. So that can't be it. Must be due to LRMS take 10x more skill to use than ER Large lasers and Gauss.

Oh DEVS please save us from the madness call thinking and team work. We need to have mechwarrior ground up and fed to use in a smooth past so we don't choke on the fun.

[StUffz]

ICEFANG13, on 10 December 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

Please explain why I would not want to add ECM to (every mech)? What are the disadvantages of using it?

Because not every IS Mechs were designed to carry one to that timeline. There were only a few mechs who had ECM and these were designed to be command mechs or scouts.

But yeah... The fictional characters in BT were also whining because ECM were killing them...

Edited by StUffz, 10 December 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[DeaconW]

StUffz, on 10 December 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Because not every IS Mechs were designed to carry one to that timeline. There were only a few mechs who had ECM and these were designed to be command mechs or scouts.

You totally missed his point...in 8 man matches almost *every* mech is carrying ECM meaning only 4 variants are being used...the ones that CAN use ECM. Really...are you being intentionally obtuse?

[ICEFANG13]

That answer is terrible, most of the mechs that have ECM in game can't have ECM in lore, give me a better answer why using ECM is a disadvantage.

[DeaconW]

USMC Iceman, on 10 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

SAY yes to easy button wins and ECM is not easy. Easy to use? I don't know if it was I can't see why every one doesn't just run a mech with ECM. So that can't be it. Must be due to LRMS take 10x more skill to use than ER Large lasers and Gauss.

After the number of ECM mec pilots on this thread who have posted their OP stats and experiences with their ECM mechs and ADMIT that it is OP, you have the moxy to post this? I am not sure whether to pity your self-delusion or admire your tenacity.

And BTW...in 8 man...almost everyone runs a mech with ECM...just like you are trying to say doesn't happen.

[StUffz]

DeaconW, on 10 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

You totally missed his point...in 8 man matches almost *every* mech is carrying ECM meaning only 4 variants are being used...the ones that CAN use ECM. Really...are you being intentionally obtuse?

Yes, and a few pages ago I already wrote that for 4vs4 or 8vs8 the usage of ECM suited mechs should be limited. However someone replied that this will have a bigger queue time. Well the point here is what we want:

a) longer queue time but restricted use of ECM mechs or
everyone can have ECM, which is easily decided who has the fattest ECM Mech and the fastest ECM chicken.

My tendency is more towards a) and that the groups must be forced to decide if they have an ECM or not.

[ltwally]

A fair and balanced ECM would perform as follows:

• Artemis - enemies would not get Artemis benefits for allies within 180m
  
• Beagle - enemies would not get Beagle benefits for allies within 180m
  
• LRM / SSRM - slightly longer time to lock on to allies within 180m
  
• LRM / SSRM - slightly easier to lose lock on to allies within 180m
  
• LRM / SSRM - slightly increased miss chance for ECM mech only
  
• No benefiting from multiple ECMs.

This futzing with sensors so they almost don't work... gone.

Killing all missile locks within 180m -- which largely negates S-SRM -- gone.

Nothing that weighs only 1.5 tonnes, which generates no heat and requires no ammunition, should be able to so radically alter the game.

PGI: I don't mean to be rude... but when you tell us that you test these things internally before rolling them out, and then we see stuff like this...? Well, it's kind-of hard to believe you.

Edited by ltwally, 10 December 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[DeaconW]

Murdalizer, on 10 December 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

And this is the problem in a nutshell, if a 2-3 man grp slaughters pugs by using a 1,5 ton equitment...theres a balance problem.

We should thank Tokimonatakanimekat for making our point for us...

StUffz, on 10 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Yes, and a few pages ago I already wrote that for 4vs4 or 8vs8 the usage of ECM suited mechs should be limited. However someone replied that this will have a bigger queue time. Well the point here is what we want:

a) longer queue time but restricted use of ECM mechs or
everyone can have ECM, which is easily decided who has the fattest ECM Mech and the fastest ECM chicken.

My tendency is more towards a) and that the groups must be forced to decide if they have an ECM or not.

The problem with your solution is that is ASSUMES ECM is OK in it's current implementation. If you reduce ECM's impact to something more normal than the 8 man teams will diversify naturally because of role warfare.

Said another way...if you have to introduce an external limit to the number of players that can bring a particular item to a match in any game...that implies that the item is overpowered, No?

Edited by DeaconW, 10 December 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

As I said before, revert ECM to original BT lore. It should work as the following:

Quote

180 meter range of interference of radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors (guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems)

Which means:

• All mechs should be able to be locked on by LRM/SSRM unless within the 180m ECM bubble.

The current ECM suite is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo. Stealth armor renders battle armor invisible to every active probe. Until PGI implements stealth armor, ECM should not cause any interference to anyone outside of 180 meters of the ECM equipped battlemech.




TL;DR - The current system is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo, thus it is broken and not working as it should.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 December 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[DeaconW]

ltwally, on 10 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Nothing that weighs only 1.5 tonnes, which generates no heat and requires no ammunition, should be able to so radically alter the game.

THIS ^^^.

[GazT4R]

Played a couple of 8 vs 8 last night, was really good.
One game didn't get going, a few shots fire but nothing major, until 5 minutes had passed with tactical movements and trying to spot the enemy/gain locations/numbers/plan an attack.
On the Pug matches I've won with non ECM teams and lost with ECM teams. I honestly don't see the major issue with it.
Netcode getting some sorting and the LAG issues then it will become 'easier' to use lasers and non lock weapons which will aid all.
Honestly I don't see what the fuss is about, adapting your play style to each change is part of the challenge. You may get steam rollered many times, and I have believe me, however each time you learn and progress. Enjoy the challenge, I mean blowing an ECM Atlas to shreds is always fun

Edited by GazT4R, 10 December 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[TheSteelRhino]

GazT4R, on 10 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Played a couple of 8 vs 8 last night, was really good.
One game didn't get going, a few shots fire but nothing major, until 5 minutes had passed with tactical movements and trying to spot the enemy/gain locations/numbers/plan an attack.
On the Pug matches I've won with non ECM teams and lost with ECM teams. I honestly don't see the major issue with it.
Netcode getting some sorting and the LAG issues then it will become 'easier' to use lasers and non lock weapons which will aid all.
Honestly I don't see what the fuss is about, adapting your play style to each change is part of the challenge. You may get steam rollered many times, and I have believe me, however each time you learn and progress. Enjoy the challenge, I mean blowing an ECM Atlas to shreds is always fun

Ok..Would like to know. What were the force loadouts like?

I'm betting 2-3 lights with ECM (Or maybe a cicada with ECM) with the bulk of the force VERY heavy mainly atlas (with a disproportionate amout of Atlas DC with ECM) and cataphracts?

In 8v8 in my experience so far the other weight classes are mostly DEAD...It's turned into Heavy/Assault fest with a few ecm lights thrown in. That's it. No variety...the tactics? CAP RUSH under ECM coverage.

Every single time. BORING and super un fun.

[Latvanis]

GazT4R, on 10 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Enjoy the challenge, I mean blowing an ECM Atlas to shreds is always fun

I saw what you did there.
Totaly agree, Killing random Atlas ,is meh ,but Atlas with ECM is fun ,cos you can get revange for using ECM!

[Corvus Antaka]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 December 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

As I said before, revert ECM to original BT lore. It should work as the following:



Which means:

• All mechs should be able to be locked on by LRM/SSRM unless within the 180m ECM bubble.

The current ECM suite is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo. Stealth armor renders battle armor invisible to every active probe. Until PGI implements stealth armor, ECM should not cause any interference to anyone outside of 180 meters of the ECM equipped battlemech.






TL;DR - The current system is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo, thus it is broken and not working as it should.

What he said is vitally important.

The ECM should not negate any weapon system outside the 180m bubble, and indeed 1 way to "Balance" it would be for it to negate friendly LRMS/SSRMS INSIDE the ECM bubble if the ECM is on disprupt.

My main issue is that no system should completely invalidate a weapon, as the ECM does with ssrms/lrms. doubling lock time is fine, forcing us to use TAG/NARC/BAP is not. TAG/NARC/BAP should be counters to ECM, where ECM disables artemis bonus & is a threat if it gets to within 180meters, TAG/NARC would counter that threat.

Otherwise, every rookie who joins this game from now into the future will rapidly learn never to take any missiles, because if he runs into an ECM team, his weapons will be useless.

I'll also note again that anyone here commenting on how ECM finally saved us from missile boats really must have sucked horribly pre-patch, because LRMS from the enemy where never a big problem if your team used the AMPLE cover the current maps provide wisely.

all ECM is doing is letting unskilled players be lazy and rush the enemy without any risk of taking LRM fire, and then once in brawling range jam all the SSRMS so they dont have to worry about those either.

If 1 ECM countered all enemy ECM's we'd also be talking about a more interesting spread out battlefield, with the 1v1 countering and the bubble the "ECM Hump warrior" that 8 mans are playing is about as lame as this game has gotten.

[TheSteelRhino]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 December 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

What he said is vitally important.

The ECM should not negate any weapon system outside the 180m bubble, and indeed 1 way to "Balance" it would be for it to negate friendly LRMS/SSRMS INSIDE the ECM bubble if the ECM is on disprupt.

My main issue is that no system should completely invalidate a weapon, as the ECM does with ssrms/lrms. doubling lock time is fine, forcing us to use TAG/NARC/BAP is not. TAG/NARC/BAP should be counters to ECM, where ECM disables artemis bonus & is a threat if it gets to within 180meters, TAG/NARC would counter that threat.

Otherwise, every rookie who joins this game from now into the future will rapidly learn never to take any missiles, because if he runs into an ECM team, his weapons will be useless.

I'll also note again that anyone here commenting on how ECM finally saved us from missile boats really must have sucked horribly pre-patch, because LRMS from the enemy where never a big problem if your team used the AMPLE cover the current maps provide wisely.

all ECM is doing is letting unskilled players be lazy and rush the enemy without any risk of taking LRM fire, and then once in brawling range jam all the SSRMS so they dont have to worry about those either.

If 1 ECM countered all enemy ECM's we'd also be talking about a more interesting spread out battlefield, with the 1v1 countering and the bubble the "ECM Hump warrior" that 8 mans are playing is about as lame as this game has gotten.

WHAT HE SAID!!!

Again, there is NO disadvantage to ECM like every other weapon in the game...whether it be heat, wait, frailty (gauss nerf), or ammo requirements.

Evading LRM's is NOT THAT HARD. Just use the terrain....And there is this great thing called an AMS. (for the uneducated out there Anti Missile System).

All it does is allow for a ridiculous number of cap/base rushes now. True Tactical thinking in this game is now basically dead.

[Thirteen]

And still, I think that ECM variants of mechs had to be added to balance weight for fair play.
At least as 1st step toward balance.

Edited by Thirteen, 10 December 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[LynxFury]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 December 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

As I said before, revert ECM to original BT lore. It should work as the following:



Which means:

• All mechs should be able to be locked on by LRM/SSRM unless within the 180m ECM bubble.

The current ECM suite is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo. Stealth armor renders battle armor invisible to every active probe. Until PGI implements stealth armor, ECM should not cause any interference to anyone outside of 180 meters of the ECM equipped battlemech.








TL;DR - The current system is working as the ECM/stealth armor combo, thus it is broken and not working as it should.

Only working on enemy sensors within the 180m makes no physical sense what so ever. Signal strength decreases as a squared root with range, so any counter measure will be increasingly effective against enemy sensors with increased distance...not less so. The current ECM model gets it right--it's just too effective right now.

Edited by LynxFury, 10 December 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[hgbek]

I think the ECM implementation is flawed. It is now a very "binary" system with sensors, weapons. comm links working or not working, I would expect a gradual reduction of sensor effectiveness as a function of range with targets at greater range showing intermittently or weapons having reduced effectiveness. Same goes for the data links, Under ECM conditions you'd expect interference with short drop outs which increase if the ECM signal grows stronger.

Secondly I would expect to see jamming strobes on the battlegrid/map screen. It seems highly unlikely that mechs would not have sensor equipment for direction finding of ECM signals. At least that would bring more balance. If you use ECM, you are broadcasting energy which can be detected and tracked by others.

Thirdly how about a HOJ (home on jam) mode for long range missiles? This would have a reduced accuracy compared to the normal firing mode but again would bring more balance.

HGBEK

Edited by hgbek, 10 December 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Big Bad Wulf]

DeaconW, on 10 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

You are joking, right? Because turning MWO into a FPS with no strategy is *exactly* what ECM is doing...

Yes strategy and creativity too! Like using it to mask you assault force and smash through prepared defenses (I was on the receiving end of this one.)

ECM to work well has to be used in conjunction with the whole team. I have yet to see an ECM boat working alone and succeeding with out the help of his/her other team/drop mates. Those that I have ecountered who did so died quickly with their ECM being inconsequential.

I am guessing you are an LRM (SSRM) boat driver based on your comment. Well 2 nights ago (more like early morning) We went up against a team with LRM boats and our ECM did not do squat. It's called TAG has a 450m range well beyond the 180m of the ECM, this requires strategy and tactics to work.

So yes, ECM forces people to work together. I have given you examples can you give your's perhaps i might be wrong - or not.