2028 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Not a Number, on 12 December 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

I've suggested before that if NARC were buffed in a similar fashion ECM would be a great counter to it. This would only make sense if PGI removed the sensor range reduction, but if they did both systems would be closer to tabletop (which is preferable in my opinion). In addition ECM would be more balanced in and of itself and there would be no need to drop with TAG, NARC or another ECM in order to get around its effects.


Then why is he referring specifically to double-blind rules, according to which ECM still has no effect outside of its 180M bubble (his words)?

If it crosses ECM it is effected. Pure and simple. Yes it doesn't stop Mech C from spotting Mech A which does not have ECM and isn't within an ECM bubble or have one directly between it and C. It does, however, stop Mech C from "sensing" Mech B which has ECM. In fact it adds +5 to the "roll" which will take a possible "Detect mechs at Long Range" roll of 2 up to a roll of 7 which is, "Detect mechs at Short Range". But it doesn't effect things that are not in it's bubble. So if neither the enemy nor the friendly mech are in the bubble, then it will not affect the range they are detected from.


EDIT: Give me a moment here, I am pulling out my rule book again and re-reading the Double Blind rules. Just in case. I unlike others occasionally make mistakes and even own up to them.

Edited by Mercules, 12 December 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[Ranger207]

Tolkien, on 11 December 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Frankly I think that if you have ECM turned on, missiles should home in on the radiation you are spitting out - just like an ARM missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile

BTech has Anti-Radiation Missles that totally ignore the effects of ECM if the target is tagged by a NARC pod. Only problem: the IS version comes out in 3066.

[Corvus Antaka]

the problem for LRMS is that before ECM the best tactic was to rush the LRM boats via cover & slaughter them inside 180m where they are useless. That is still the best tactic, except now the LRM boat can do almost nothing to supress the approaching brawlers due to ECM

the other issue is that the stealth buble of ECM has made it harder to find & target the enemy via the ingame radar, buffing premades vs pugs significantly & actually lowering overall tactics as the enemy is harder to find & locate and so usually by the time you have found the enemy they are on top of you.

and yet another, but most interesting issue, is that now that ECM has negated missiles & everyone has shifted to direct fire, the very very funny part is that ECM is infact becoming worthless again...why? Because no one takes missiles, the very thing ECM stops, and thusly bringing an ECM to the battlefield actually is of marginal value anymore. This is to me the funniest part & biggest issue, that ECM is actually doing a whole lot of nothing once it comes down to it - just removing missiles from the game.

All in all I'd say the entire ECM implementation is pretty garbage right now, and has done nothing for the game in it's current state except to rid us of the catapult A1 streak boat & LRMS.

Granted, this has a lot to do with lack of knockdowns & netcode, but still, when it comes down to it, the ECM has done nothing but remove missiles & long range indirect fire support from the game and turning the game into a complete brawlers fest.

I'd wager to say that the best fix for ECM might well be to only have it affect the mech it is on, cutting radar range to 250m (Which BAP would bring up to 500 again) - not other friendlies, and have it disrupt enemy missiles within the 180meter bubble.

These 2 things alone, plus a counter mode ECM would be plenty to start off with and test from there, and I think PGI simply went to far to fast, as they have tended to do over the past few weeks - but that's ok....this is BETA!!! and at least it is worth trying funky ideas out

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 12 December 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[warp103]

ICEFANG13, on 10 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Yes you are stupid SSRMs and LRMs users, those no skill weapons are gone and its a great thing! ECM requires a lot more tactics and skills than just pressing the J button.

*Genius Meme*

Go back and play COD you pew pew pew lover. If i can crest a hill with no fear of guass or lrm then this is not MW but a COD clone.

Edited by warp103, 12 December 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Obvious sarcasm is obvious, do you not know the genius meme?

[Caboose30]

I saw give us a 500m sensor bubble, or make it true LOS targeting. Ie, if they can see you, you can target them, even if they're behind you. As far as I'm concerned, we already had built in ECM, they're just making it crazy strong now. ECM doesn't have the ability to interrupt visually based targeting, so if you see a mech you should be able to target it. What it does have the ability to do is disrupt targeting computers and missile locks, so you should still be able to target the mech, but either missiles will track it much slower than usual, or you have 60% odds of not getting a missile lock, and you have to pull your reticle away and try again.

[Mercules]

Damn it... been playing Double Blind ECM wrong according to the actual wording of the rules. It strongly implies that it affects all sensor checks but has one sentence that changes the whole meaning to limit it to spotting mechs standing within the ECM bubble itself. I stand corrected and humbly eat crow. I even checked the Errata sheets to be certain.

ECM should not affect Sensor Ranges for mechs outside it's influence.

[Serapth]

If I am completely honest, I think the addition of ECM is perhaps the most unbalanced game mechanic I have ever seen added to a multiplayer game. Don't even pretend to look at the TT game for inspiration as a) it wasn't particularly well balanced to start b ) the ways of balancing it, such as BV, havent been added to this game yet. Besides, mechanics that work in table top obviously dont translate to a realtime system.

Basically the D&D equivalent of ECM is:
An invisibility cloak +
A ring of protection against missiles +
Multiple friendly target modifier +
for 1 copper piece


That's just bonkers. There is zero reason not to take ECM. It's ultra light weight, it's on the heaviest chaisis in the game and it has no downsides besides the trivial amount of space it occupies. Hell, at least AMS has ammunition that can explode, and they are the same damned weight, while ECM is about 500 times more useful.

ECM also is such a game changer it has pushed things so heavily in the favor of premades that beginners are going to quit the game in frustration damned fast if this isnt fixed. Basically I think the only people that are pro-ECM in it's current form are the people that like facerolling PUGers... and is this a demographic PGI should really be listening to? Let's just say, in a F2P game, that's generally not the demographic that brings in the money.


On the other hand, streaks were heavily broken before the patch and you did often see 4 or 5 streakcats per match... so obviously a fix was needed. But this fix was akin to diplomacy via a nuke... absolutely stupid. There were so many other cleaner solutions they could have made... cap SSRMs to 2 per mech. Problem solved. Lower the damage on SSRMs, problem solved. Increase the weight or crits required to run SSRMs, problem solved. Crank the cost of SSRMs and remove welfare ammo, problem solved. Completely gimp non-direct fire weapons and make targeting over 200m basically impossible... problem not solved.


Even still, in its vastly over powered, overly cheap form, ECM would have been bearable if it was confined to the lights... but mounting it on the freaking atlas... well there goes the strategy off "just target the ECM mech".

Ironically, they didn't even fix the streak cat.. they just turned it into the streak commando. At least before the patch, I could nuke the Streakcat before it closed to the 270m range... that tactic is now basically gone.



PGI, you really need to add a pre-beta test server so crap like this doesn't get through again. If you can't solve streaks now with a solution better than the game changing ( and for some destroying ) implementation of ECM, we are quite frankly screwed when Clan mechs arrive!

Edited by Serapth, 12 December 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

Equipment in BT/MW is about balance, tradeoffs, and cost of use:

I present for your consideration (and sorry about the formatting, posting from my phone)

Equipment in BT/MW is about balance, trade offs, and cost of use:
EQUIPMENT.....ADVANTAGE ............. TRADE OFF.........................COST OF USE

Lasers……..Unlimited Firing……………..None………………………….Heat Generation

Pulse……Concentrated damage……..Heavier, less range……….Higher heat generation

ER……..Range, no min range……………None…………………….Higher heat generation

PPC……….HUD Disruption (eventually)……..Min range, heavy.……Heat Generation

AC………………Low Heat………Heavy, Ammo explodes…………Consumes Ammo

Ultra…………….High fire rate…………..Jams, heavier………………Consumes Ammo

LBX………..“Shot gun”, cooler, lighter……Damage is spread…….Consumes Ammo

SRM………Good Dmg/Missile………Range, accuracy, Ammo exp…..Consumes Ammo

LRMs………Range………….Requires Lock, min range, ammo explodes……Consumes Ammo

Gauss……Range, Damage, low heat………….Heavy, Gun explodes……Consumes Ammo

Narc…………..Lock On’s……………………..Requires “Skill shot”……………Consumes Ammo

TAG……… Accuracy Bonus?..............Hold beam on target, uses a hard point……..Exposure

Artemis ………..Lock on/accuracy bonus………Purchased for each launcher……………None

Streaks …………Lock on…………………….must maintain lock………………………….Exposure

AMS……………Less damage from missiles……..Defensive, ammo explodes……Consumes Ammo

BAP……………Increase sensor range, Fast targeting…..None……………………………..None

ECM………….Counters: Artimes, BAP, TAG,………………..None……………………………..None
NARC, LRM Lock, Streak Lock
& General targeting for all allies within 180m

The only other price of equip with no tradeoff or cost of use is BAP, which of course, ECM defeats.

Edited by Vasces Diablo, 12 December 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Tolkien]

Mercules, on 12 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Damn it... been playing Double Blind ECM wrong according to the actual wording of the rules. It strongly implies that it affects all sensor checks but has one sentence that changes the whole meaning to limit it to spotting mechs standing within the ECM bubble itself. I stand corrected and humbly eat crow. I even checked the Errata sheets to be certain.

ECM should not affect Sensor Ranges for mechs outside it's influence.

Thanks for being stand up and admitting that it was a misreading.

I wouldn't say it's a disaster that you played the tabletop game in such a way, as most people prefer to have certain house rules that don`t completely agree with what's in the books.

For example when I used to play with friends we would not use the movement, firing and heat phases, but rather have each mech on each side go in turn through movement, then each mech on each side go in turn through their firing+heat+damage phases.

The downside was that you had mechs that would be destroyed before they got to do anything on a given turn, the upside was that you didn't have mechs fire off all of their weapons because they knew they were going to be destroyed at the end of the phase anyway.

[Not a Number]

Mercules, on 12 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Damn it... been playing Double Blind ECM wrong according to the actual wording of the rules. It strongly implies that it affects all sensor checks but has one sentence that changes the whole meaning to limit it to spotting mechs standing within the ECM bubble itself. I stand corrected and humbly eat crow. I even checked the Errata sheets to be certain.

ECM should not affect Sensor Ranges for mechs outside it's influence.

Well I decided to check out the Tactical Handbook myself to be sure I'm not just repeating nonsense spouted by someone else. On page 10 it states:

"... To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM system. This radius is not affected by LOS."

Page 63 covering the Angel ECM suite does not mention spotting but does state:

"... The Angel counters Beagle and Bloodhound probes, Artemis and Streak fire-control systems, NARC missile beacons, C3 computers, the Clan Watchdog probe, and Clan targeting computers.

The Angel ECM Suite negates the effects of the aforementioned systems whenever they are used within 6 hexes of a 'Mech equipped with the Angel. The Angel also defeats such systems when they are used to direct weapons whose LOS passes within 6 hexes of an Angel-equipped 'Mech or are targeted at hexes within 6 hexes of an Angel-equipped 'Mech."

So ECM (the Angel anyway) can still affect weapons passing through its 180M bubble, even when fired from outside of it. For it to do anything else, like interfere with spotting, the ECM equipped mech needs to be within 180M of the mech(s) it wants to affect.

This makes sense because, unless we're talking about something like a pure 1 on 1 situation, this could still prevent other friendly units from being spotted.

[Abivard]

Damn trolls copy and pasting the same things every post, the last 3 pages 40% of the text lines belong to the same three trolls who begin every damn post with a personal slur/insult to whomever they are 'responding to' then demonstrate they never bothered to read that post lol.


one troll took a well coordinated team of 4 streak ecm commandos into a couple pug matches, by his own admission they had no ecm on other side and appeared to be all newbs. they MOSTLY won.

'nuff said

[Tolkien]

abivard, on 12 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Damn trolls copy and pasting the same things every post, the last 3 pages 40% of the text lines belong to the same three trolls who begin every damn post with a personal slur/insult to whomever they are 'responding to' then demonstrate they never bothered to read that post lol.


one troll took a well coordinated team of 4 streak ecm commandos into a couple pug matches, by his own admission they had no ecm on other side and appeared to be all newbs. they MOSTLY won.

'nuff said

About four posts back you said we should be open minded and constructive - where has your goodwill gone?

[DeaconW]

abivard, on 12 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Damn trolls copy and pasting the same things every post, the last 3 pages 40% of the text lines belong to the same three trolls who begin every damn post with a personal slur/insult to whomever they are 'responding to' then demonstrate they never bothered to read that post lol.


one troll took a well coordinated team of 4 streak ecm commandos into a couple pug matches, by his own admission they had no ecm on other side and appeared to be all newbs. they MOSTLY won.

'nuff said

Try your reading comprehension skills again...I never said there were no ecm mechs on the opfor. I have clearly stated that the single most accurate predictor of victory in a match is whichever team has the larger number of ecm mechs. That still holds true and held true for the most part in those matches. Pls try again, perhaps with less misrepresentation. Also... don't you owe us a TAG training video?

[MrDingDong]

fix your game or I WILL QUIT

[StUffz]

MrDingDong, on 12 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

fix your game or I WILL QUIT

Bye bye...

[DeaconW]

Mercules, on 12 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Damn it... been playing Double Blind ECM wrong according to the actual wording of the rules. It strongly implies that it affects all sensor checks but has one sentence that changes the whole meaning to limit it to spotting mechs standing within the ECM bubble itself. I stand corrected and humbly eat crow. I even checked the Errata sheets to be certain.

ECM should not affect Sensor Ranges for mechs outside it's influence.

You, Sir, are a gentleman.

StUffz, on 12 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Bye bye...

While his comment wasn't necessarily constructive, if too many people get frustrated, MWO will die and we'll have to wait another 10 years for a new MW sim. I don't think any of us want that...

[Tolkien]

MrDingDong, on 12 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

fix your game or I WILL QUIT

They already have our money - and since you're a legendary founder I guess you believe in battletech and want to see it thrive. It's better to focus on helping them make a fun game than to give up.

[DeaconW]

Tolkien, on 12 December 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

They already have our money - and since you're a legendary founder I guess you believe in battletech and want to see it thrive. It's better to focus on helping them make a fun game than to give up.

You just made me think of something... imagine you are a brand new mwo player. You install, create your account, log in, get in your trial much and in your first match you can't get radar contract on half the op for and half your weapons won't work. You die being circle strafed by two lights you can't hit with ANY of your weapons. I probably couldn't press "uninstall" fast enough...but ECM in its current form is great for the state of the game according to some here...<shaking head>

Edited by DeaconW, 12 December 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Tolkien]

DeaconW, on 12 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

You just made me think of something... imagine you are a brand new mwo player. You install, create your account, log in, get in your trial much and in your first match you can't get radar contract on half the op for and half your weapons won't work. You die being circle strafed by two lights you can't hit with ANY of your weapons. I probably couldn't press "uninstall" fast enough...but ECM in its current form is great for the state of the game according to some here...<shaking head>

Yeah it's a scary thought what sort of first impressions someone joining right now would have, especially since they appear to be advertising on many of the sites I frequent these days. Some have both side and top banners announcing the cataphract or MWO in general.

As a long time mechwarrior player on the tabletop and 2,3, pirates moon, 4, mercenaries, MPBT3025, Mech commander, MC2, etc. I was very concerned with this whole role warfare concept as it turns part of the tradition on its ear. I learned to deal with it, but this flavour of the month equipment concerns me as it might be a cynical marketing ploy to get us to constantly move to new chassis, equipment, etc.