2028 replies to this topic

[steelblueskies]

on another side of the issue, please take a moment and count how many stock mechs have ecm. then count how many stock mechs have tag. note that the stock mechs are the trial mechs.

ecm or tag counters ecm? raven 3l has both. the raven 3l is the ONLY mech that has either system stock. we have more stock chassis' that have flamers than machines with tag. new user experience.. yeah..

wanna count how many stock mechs have lrms, or streaks? i got 19 for lrms and 1 on the streaks.bap? again only the 3l raven.

now if the distribution was similar to the distribution offered stock, maybe you'd be somewhere, and the 3l would be really popular as the rock:rock machine in its 1/44 and counting ratio of ecm+counter to non ecm no counter trials. but these rarer systems are proliferating. chew on how tag as a counter is valid when considering new user experience. consider how ecm impacts people still learning how things work.

[ICEFANG13]

The 8 mans are so boring and terrible. Can we just not get ECM? It would be better than keeping it like it is.

[DeaconW]

Abivard, on 16 December 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

if you haven't noticed you haven't bothered to read. debate game merits, don't make up lies.

Dude, your audacity is amazing...truly. And you still owe us a TAG training video...

Quote

As to whining, yes 80% of anti ECM posts seem to come down to whines about broken boat exploits, LRM cats with xl100 engines. A1's with 6 streaks all 'broken and nerfd', inability to farm newbs, like before.

You have a reading comprehension problem or you are simply making stuff up...please point to posts on this thread that fit in these categories.

Quote

prima donnas forced to make friends to survive, the utter horror, having to actually develop team skills.

This is an unfounded bald-faced insult, not rational commentary. Try again. The game is MOST BROKEN IN 8v8 (where teamwork is primary) BECAUSE OF ECM.

[ICEFANG13]

Deacon is 100% right. 8 mans are an excellent example of how broken ECM is. They promote ECM tactics and not team tactics. Its all about ECM now.

[DeaconW]

Marcus Tanner, on 16 December 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

...
<Lots of good points...>
...

Marcus...if you look across all of Abivards posts, It is clear that he has no short term memory or he lives in a parallel universe where his posts accidently post in this dimensions MW:O forums...or he is purposely trolling. Take your pick.

[Marcus Tanner]

DeaconW, on 16 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Marcus...if you look across all of Abivards posts, It is clear that he has no short term memory or he lives in a parallel universe where his posts accidently post in this dimensions MW:O forums...or he is purposely trolling. Take your pick.

Debates rarely convince the opponent, at least not in public.

Debates are a fight over the audience, in this case the community and the devs.

[DeaconW]

Marcus Tanner, on 16 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Debates rarely convince the opponent, at least not in public.

Debates are a fight over the audience, in this case the community and the devs.

Excellent point.

[ICEFANG13]

A majority of the community agree that ECM needs a nerf, not a nerf to removal, but really 75% believe that it needs a tone down, somewhere between, this needs to be removed, to reduce it slightly. Devs don't care apparently. I suppose this discussion has no point. The only time it will matter is if they do not reduce it, and 'we' have a boycott to show them how serious this it. They don't care about this thread.

[Kreisel]

When compared to other equipment that could take it's place ECM just seems to outclass the rest of it. For 1.5 tons, 2 crits it does far more than BAP, ARTEMIS, AMS, CASE, Jump Jets, a Heatsink, a SSRM2, 1.5 tons of armor...

For the same space it all at once...

• Larger change in sensor range and lock time than BAP, effecting more than just your mech
  
• Larger effect of missile lock time than Aretemis, plus can only get a lock in very narrow range band.
  
• as or more effective from protecting against LRM and SSRMs than AMS
  
• and additional powerful effects

When you look at lore, it's doing as much as 2 or 3 other pieces of equipment combined.

It disproportionally effects PUGS, since it's random what you will have on your team, and certain builds, in particular many catapult chassis take the risk of being completely useless because of group make up.

It completely invalidates BAP and Artemis. Which on it's own would be fine... but as a bonus feature for equipment with another purpose, it really devalues the worth of either piece of equipment.

I don't think ECM is bad for the game, but it's simply unbalanced when compared to other available options right now. Furthermore certain mechs are reliant on having other mech with particular load outs (a missile support mech is dependent on having a scout with TAG or ECM. While some could equip TAG themselves... the A1 can not.)

It would make a notable difference if the sensor range reduction was say to 50% or BY 25% instead of to 25%. Then Mechs like the A1 could adapt to counter ECM without being dependent on matchmaking have placed them on a team with someone else who has the equipment that can counter it for them.

The 'lagsheild' makes this a large problem, especially for those of us running on older systems, who used lock on weapons to help compensate for Low frames per second making it difficult to aim.

[DeaconW]

ICEFANG13, on 16 December 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

A majority of the community agree that ECM needs a nerf, not a nerf to removal, but really 75% believe that it needs a tone down, somewhere between, this needs to be removed, to reduce it slightly. Devs don't care apparently. I suppose this discussion has no point. The only time it will matter is if they do not reduce it, and 'we' have a boycott to show them how serious this it. They don't care about this thread.

Maybe, Maybe not. We'll see after the patch on Tuesday. The truth is that the forums speak for only a small part of the community. The darker truth may be that the majority of players don't care about balance or what a MW/BT game is and PGI may simply cater to them over us as a marketing decision. Ironic since it is my impression that it is mainly people who have a history with BT/MW games and care about the true BT/MW team play concept that crowdfunded this via the founders program. We may now be cast aside so that PGI can pander to the next set of people willing to part with their money. I am holding out hope but if that is what is truly happening than I will definitely feel duped...

Edited by DeaconW, 16 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

The interaction with the community, the comparison to TT balance decisions, and the extremely high price of almost everything seems to agree with that opinion. I am trying to stay optimistic about this situation, but I am in extreme doubt as well.

[Koe]

I play a Raven-3L myself and think the thing is unbalanced. ECM itself is fine, it allows Mechs to use more tactics - the problem is the ECM bubble. You get two or three ECMs on a team and none on the other, that other team is dead. No question.

If the bubble was removed or reduced so that only one other mech could "join" the bubble it would bring back a LOT more of the previous playability, and LRMs would be viable again.

[Felder]

Disclaimer: This won't be a constructive post - there are literally hundreds of posts which quite nicely summarize my opinions much better ways than I could.

ECM as it is now is op and removes the diversity of tactics. I'm 100% pugger and I don't really care much if I win or loose as long as i have fun. Best matches after ecm was introduced have been those where both teams had from 0 to 1 ECM capable mechs.

/**
* Rambling
* Whining
* Crying
*/

I tried to form some coherent but short explanation, but it's over midnight here and I gave up. In the end I'm writing this message only to indicate that i'm in the 'ecm sucks' team.

Ps. It has not killed all the fun, but if next couple patches don't bring any reasonable countermeasures/tunes I might see myself searching for alternatives.

Pps. Tag range increase...won't have much effect on anything,

[Garagano]

i like the idea of an ECM device that is "used up" during its been active. Like the JJ or a battery. The ECM activity duration is limited for a specific time for 1 match.

So the ECM carriers have to choose specifically WHEN to use the device. Its better then this "always on" state of the current ECM implementation.

When the ECM carrier run out of ECM BATTERY then this ECM carrier is ****** up like any other ordinary mech in his class.

[StalaggtIKE]

Koe, on 16 December 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

I play a Raven-3L myself and think the thing is unbalanced. ECM itself is fine, it allows Mechs to use more tactics - the problem is the ECM bubble. You get two or three ECMs on a team and none on the other, that other team is dead. No question.

If the bubble was removed or reduced so that only one other mech could "join" the bubble it would bring back a LOT more of the previous playability, and LRMs would be viable again.

ECM still needs a proper counter. Else the 4 ECM equippable chassis would still be the preferred choice. Ton for ton, no other tech compares in value.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 16 December 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Firewuff]

As a lover and user of ECM I am starting to see it as problematic. Here are the main issue I see.

a) Atlas with ECM is terrifying. you can't kill it quickly, you cant call for help and recently I've been seeing groups of 4 mechs clustering around an ECM Atlas..... your stuffed. Good bye etc. I'd love to see it dropped from the heavier mechs and left to the lighter ones where ECM becomes a risk/benefit and the heavies now have a reason to protect them.

Stacking ECM is a pain. if you have 1 and they have 4.... good bye. you can't over ride them but they can override yours and still prevent you targeting. This HEAVILY favours groups opposed to randoms. If ECM didn't stack then ther would be no issue, 1 ECM can counter any number of other ECM but then you open yourself up to targeting. Multiple ECM are still valuable for covering an area.

c) The edge zone is too small. Extending it further would be great.


I've also suggested previously it would be great to see on the minimap your own teams ECM areas as a circle.... currently I just watch the nearby mechs to guess if I am covered.

Lovethe work and enjoying the game....

[USMC Iceman]

I have found ECM to have not effect on my Games in 4 man or 8 mans. If you have players running 3 or more ECM you have not major issues. Yes you can't use LRM Easy button but we found with TAG the LRM Boat or a few players running as a team could spot for the LRMs. Allowing them to focus fire on the other team's ECM Units that were in the open.

Lights Lag is still an issue and would be a better use of " fix " time to make the hit boxes bigger or a better net code.

[steelblueskies]

Firewuff, on 16 December 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

As a lover and user of ECM I am starting to see it as problematic. Here are the main issue I see.

a) Atlas with ECM is terrifying. you can't kill it quickly, you cant call for help and recently I've been seeing groups of 4 mechs clustering around an ECM Atlas..... your stuffed. Good bye etc. I'd love to see it dropped from the heavier mechs and left to the lighter ones where ECM becomes a risk/benefit and the heavies now have a reason to protect them.

Stacking ECM is a pain. if you have 1 and they have 4.... good bye. you can't over ride them but they can override yours and still prevent you targeting. This HEAVILY favours groups opposed to randoms. If ECM didn't stack then ther would be no issue, 1 ECM can counter any number of other ECM but then you open yourself up to targeting. Multiple ECM are still valuable for covering an area.

c) The edge zone is too small. Extending it further would be great.


I've also suggested previously it would be great to see on the minimap your own teams ECM areas as a circle.... currently I just watch the nearby mechs to guess if I am covered.

Lovethe work and enjoying the game....

let me say, that generally ecm on the lights is no sacrafice at all.
until the netcode amplified lagshield fixes go live, their speed fervently makes up for less mounted firepower. furthermore with less hardpoints their heat efficiency generally works out far better than heavier chassis'.

i've said frack it and run a cda-3m as a quad medlas(not pulse, normal medlas) mech, leaving the ballistic unused. no ams. ecm, dhs, endo, and stock 320 engine. no elites. no master level. its a big jenner without jump.

it averages damage output in the 300-500 range. i am predominantly pugging it solo.
peak output was 5 kills 904 damage. with 17dhs, 4 medium lasers, 320xl, ecm, endo steel structure and basic proficiencies.

the only functional enemies are client close to desktop crashes during high speed turning, lucky shots, or small clusters of ecm+tag+streak equipped lights that can keep pace with 129kph.

atlases as single or triple units are just meat, unless they to have streaks, tag, and/or ecm. sometimes not even then if they lack coordination. the lights are more dangerous.

also so i can say i'm not talking out my hind end.






----------------------------
the edge zone is a bad thing. it is flatly not communicated to the player in game, making this a burden of knowledge mechanic for new players. unless you look it up, it might as well not exist, as getting inside that window and staying there long enough to use it is exceptionally unpredictable and variable. (in the same fashion as those rubberbanding lights and trying to get the system to register a lock on at points prior in development, if you've seen that, only with less feedback as to if you are doing it right or not. rangefinder reports distance to target you see, not actual distance according to server, and fast movers close window of opportunity in less than half a second generally.)

-----------------------------

i will agree the stacking numbers is a problem, but this is a far more involved issue than just the ecm itself.
so only 3 can affect an area at once? so what? eight carriers there. so you kill one, and another takes over emitting until they're down to 3 or less. no benefit to solving core issue.

Edited by steelblueskies, 16 December 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[DeaconW]

USMC Iceman, on 16 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I have found ECM to have not effect on my Games in 4 man or 8 mans. If you have players running 3 or more ECM you have not major issues.

Your second sentence completely negates your first. try again. ECM is clearly having a HUGE effect on your games.

[ICEFANG13]

Players don't need ECM, if you have ECM its not a problem.


>Implies ECM counter ECM is a problem.