100 replies to this topic

[Smeghead87]

ICEFANG13, on 09 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Yes anyway, the only Jenner that is "OP" right now is the F, and that one is very similar to the Cicada-2A, the K and the D are out classed by the Raven-3L and the ECM. If the Jenner is so OP right now, you have greater things to worry about.

As far as I'm concerned, the greatest threat right now is the fastest mech, because the netcode does not allow me to hit where I aim. ECM does not stop me from firing at light mechs, the lagshield does. Many people use lock on weapons as a crutch right now but I don't. If you trace the problem back, ECM is not the problem.

People can't hit light mechs reliably, so they use the weapons that can hit them, the lock on weapons. Dev's release a counter to lock on weapons before the lagshield problem is fixed, and everyone goes absolutely mental that their lock on weapons are now useless. That's not the issue, the issue is that you can't hit a fast mech with any great consistency unless you play enough to know exactly where to aim based on your ping and the bugged hit detection.

[ICEFANG13]

The Jenner-D/K/F all can move at a max of 149.3, the Raven can move 146.something, that difference in speed doesn't make the Raven any weaker against weapons that you have to aim with, but can also use ECM, which removes SSRMs and LRMs from being effective against you.

I personally can hit a light mech with no problem, but I can't beat multiple Raven-3Ls with 3 medium lasers and 2 streaks, with my 3 mediums lasers and 2 streaks (in the D), although I can usually beat one.

[PiWright42]

Hansh0tfirst, on 04 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

So instead of being better than 3 out of 3 Ravens, and 4 out of 4 Commandos, now you're only better than 2 out of 3 Ravens, and 3 out of 4 Commandos?

Boo. Hoo.

Seeing that those who pilot Commandos and Ravens now gravitate to the variants of those models that support ECM makes your point a skoche moot.

Edited by PiWright42, 09 December 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[Chacatumbi]

shadowrwolf, on 04 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

go read lore there has never ever been a jenner with ECM

Someone needs to go see what the last hero mech was.

Truth of the matter is, Jenners are now obsolete. There is 0 reason to bring a jenner to a drop because as a light you cant be a scout any longer. if you wana be a light killer ad hunt their scouts or defend your assaults from scouts, you are better off picking a medium or heavy. There is literally no role for jenner now except people liking the mech. They should just add jump jets and ecm to all lights.

Edited by Chacatumbi, 09 December 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Roland]

You can't have ECM on the best light mech in the game.
Sorry.

[Smeghead87]

ICEFANG13, on 09 December 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

The Jenner-D/K/F all can move at a max of 149.3, the Raven can move 146.something, that difference in speed doesn't make the Raven any weaker against weapons that you have to aim with, but can also use ECM, which removes SSRMs and LRMs from being effective against you.

I personally can hit a light mech with no problem, but I can't beat multiple Raven-3Ls with 3 medium lasers and 2 streaks, with my 3 mediums lasers and 2 streaks (in the D), although I can usually beat one.

ALL jenners can move at this speed. Only one Raven can come close, and due to the forced XP issues, you have to play all 3 variants to master.

I brought this issue up with Garth in the ask the dev's section and he pretty much glazed over it. Where the 3L gets increased engine limit, more module slots and the ability to equip ECM. The other ravens get what in exchange? The 4X gets jump jets, the 2X gets no love.

At least jenners are more consistant across the board.

[Kaijin]

A Jenner can now be taken out by an ECM Raven...that's got a Streakapult in tow.

[ICEFANG13]

Who cares? I beat enemy Jenners/Commandos/Ravens without all the basics unlocked. They don't make the biggest difference. Although its easier to master the Jenners, the advantages of the ECM make it just so much better than the extra bonuses do.

[Lavrenti]

I don't have much sympathy for the Jenner pilots who complain simply because it can't carry ECM. It's still the fastest and best armed light mech in the game, with sh!tty netcode protecting it from direct-fire weapons very effectively. All that has changed with the introduction of ECM is that there is now a reason to take other light mechs; the Jenner itself hasn't been nerfed.

[ICEFANG13]

When I say, I want all the lights to be good, and I don't want ECM on Jenners, I don't think anyone can read that correctly? There is no reason to take the Jenner-D/K or any non 2D Commando, or the Raven-4X/2X, I want balance for every mech. I don't want Jenners to be best, but to compare.

[Vassago Rain]

>obviously OP mech with lagshields dominate everything in the game since inception.
>it gets so bad, you're considered masculine for killing them when you have a 65 tonnage advantage.
>homing missilesand 360 headshots thanks to bugged jumpjets.
>announced to be getting everything
>devs are forced by public outcry to retract the new bling.
>suddenly, other lights are viable.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! MUH CHICKENWALKER ISN'T THE GOD-EMPEROR OF MECHS! WAAAAAH! I WANT MUH ECM AND STREAKS BACK, WAAAAH!

[Alex Wolfe]

ECM is a bit unbalanced now, but Jenner is tiny, has great hardpoints, very high speed and jump jets. It's still more maneuverable than ECM Ravens, more armored and have more firepower than ECM Commando. It has more of a bite against bigger enemies. It's still a (lagshielded) backstabber.

Jenner was the King light mech for months now. If you gave it ECM on top of all the other advantages it already enjoys... you would never need another light mech until the Clans hit at least. Everything else PGI adds would just be seen as "a worse Jenner".

"One mech to rule them all" is not a sustainable game design philosophy IMO, so I'm personally glad the king is dead. Once ECM is rebalanced (be it by TAG/narc or some other means) I'm sure Jenner will be an option. Just not the option.

[ConnorSinclair]

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

ECM is a bit unbalanced now, but Jenner is tiny, has great hardpoints, very high speed and jump jets. It's still more maneuverable than ECM Ravens, more armored and have more firepower than ECM Commando. It has more of a bite against bigger enemies. It's still a (lagshielded) backstabber.

Jenner was the King light mech for months now. If you gave it ECM on top of all the other advantages it already enjoys... you would never need another light mech until the Clans hit at least. Everything else PGI adds would just be seen as "a worse Jenner".

"One mech to rule them all" is not a sustainable game design philosophy IMO, so I'm personally glad the king is dead. Once ECM is rebalanced (be it by TAG/narc or some other means) I'm sure Jenner will be an option. Just not the option.

Now if only they'll deal with that pesky Catapult, AKA THE INNERSPHERE MADCAT.

[Davers]

Just goes to prove that all these 'elite light pilots' are only as good as their streak missiles.

[QuantumButler]

Davers, on 09 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Just goes to prove that all these 'elite light pilots' are only as good as their streak missiles.

The true elite are the Atlas pilots who can kill lights regularly with their normal srms and AC20s.

[ConnorSinclair]

QuantumButler, on 09 December 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The true elite are the Atlas pilots who can kill lights regularly with their normal srms and AC20s.

if we get lucky and the SRM, AC20 god lets our munitions register damage.

[Leimrey]

The lights are perfectly fine as they are right now, except for the REALLY bad netcode that makes them extremely hard to kill without streaks. From my experience, the current metagame is:
- Jenner: extremely effective backstabber and harasser with an array of lasers and, possibly, srms, but is vulnerable to ecm lights (Raven and 2D Commando), since he cannot use streaks against them.
- 2D ECM Commando: an anti-light "striker" mech that can carry triple streaks and dish out the most dps against lights, but has poor armor. Still, he cannot be targeted by streaks, without the enemy using Counter mode on their ECM.
- ECM Raven: a well balanced mech that can take on any of the upper mentioned roles with limited efficiency (can carry only two streaks and isn't as fast as the jenner). Has good armor which gives him an advantage in anti-light combat, but can still get destroyed by a lucky or skilled 2D ECM streakmando.
Please, PGI, for the love of Blake, do not mess with the current situation. Things are fine as they are now, just fix the horrible netcode that allows lights to survive in situations where even a brigade of Atlases would get obliterated.

[Ascendent]

Jenner Firepower isn't as valid an argument as it use to be (pre-ECM) when compared to the Raven. Consider the following:

Jenner-D and -F have the potential for greater firepower compared to Ravens due to essentially an extra hardpoint. However to add a 1.5T ECM (1.5T on a light is a lot) you have to tone down the fire power, lose heat efficiency (effectively decreasing dps), or drop a substantial amount of armor. Assuming the firepower or dps route, this would make a ECM Jenner on par with a ECM Raven, not substantially more powerful. The Jenner-K has one less hardpoint than -D or -F in favor of an additional module slot. At this time the -K has little use at all (that may change if game changing modules appear). Certainly the Jenner-K with or without ECM can not be considered more powerful than a Raven in light of its hardpoints.

Now I am not a Jenner fanboy. I do like and play all weight classes . It does appear though that the game would only get enriched by having more loadout options for different tactics, as long as it does not create a best in class default so to speak.

I can not say for certain, but I don’t believe giving all lights ECM for all that matters is a bad thing (that is with the current state of game modes, maps, and ECM, if any of those 3 factors change the effects would have to be reevaluated). It will just increase light diversity (providing the assumption that ECM Jenner and Raven builds end up comparable, devs can test this). The option can always be removed or given to only the weakest variants of each light mech.

If you haven't noticed, over the past week we have just been trading one evil for another. The number of Jenners has continued to decline. The diversity of Commando and Raven models can be likely contributed to players grinding them to master level. I suspect the number of non ECM Ravens and Commandos will continue to decline as well, until they are limited to those new to the platform, grinding the pilot tree.

Lastly, ECM amplifies the already existing lag-shield along with the current lack of knock down. I invite all participating in these discussions to take them with a grain of salt and not view future discussions on the topic (once and if lag-shield and knock down are resolved) with previous experience clouding their objectivity, much like the Jenner hate, Gausscat hate, LRMwarriors online week (think Artimus first week), the fast Swayback horror (closed beta) etc. (you get the idea)

[Alex Wolfe]

Ascendent, on 09 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I can not say for certain, but I don’t believe giving all lights ECM for all that matters is a bad thing (that is with the current state of game modes, maps, and ECM, if any of those 3 factors change the effects would have to be reevaluated). It will just increase light diversity (providing the assumption that ECM Jenner and Raven builds end up comparable, devs can test this). The option can always be removed or given to only the weakest variants of each light mech.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Handing out ECM to all lights wouldn't promote diversity, it would just put Jenner back on top.

Consider the following: we've had an "even" playing field for months (as there was no exclusive gear). The results regarding the "best sub-65 mech" were clear: Jenner, Jenner, Jenner or you're wasting time and effort. Then it's the Catapult, God-Emperor of Mechwarrior Online. Then... huh, Atlas, I guess? Streakboat or ballistic K2 abomination could still solo it, so can't be sure.

Then ECM shifted the balance to: ECM mechs > Jenner >> non-ECM sub-65 mechs.

If you give Jenners ECM... it'll pop back into a familiar pattern: ECM Jenner >>> other ECM mechs > Jenner >> non-ECM sub-65 mechs.

Such a mech would have all you want: hardpoints, small profile, speed, jump jets and ECM. You'll likely never need another light mech again. PGI needs never develop another one, and players won't feel inclined to get one for reasons other than "nostalgia for handicap", like it was when Commando and Raven came out. Jenner to rule them all.

I'm not saying the situation is perfect currently, but at least it's a change from "Jenner Catapult Atlas only - no fun allowed" that seems to be in place since ancient closed beta, despite further mech releases. Nerf streaks a bit so that streakmandos/streakravens don't utterly dominate. Nerf hardpoints on ECM mechs a tad. Carefully rebalance ECM, at the same time taking care not to bring INCOMING MISSILE Online back.

Just don't buff Jenners.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[arkanis]

Yes, having a unhittable commando bugging people that try to fight with some decency is something to be proud of

The Birdeater, on 08 December 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

My COM-2D with ECM and x3 Streaks is much better!