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Thinking Of Long Range Weapons? Don't Do It!


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#21 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

View PostVoltarDark, on 04 December 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

This is all ********. LRM weapon are still powerful evenly against ECM protected target. I play 20 games with a awesome with 2 lrm-15 artemis and my pug teams wont 85% of the match with me scoring in the top 3 where ECM was everywhere. Just adapt and move closer to the fight. Remember that you can direct fire your LRM by targeting the ground under your aim (zoom). The game is now a lot better with ECM like it is and its not a matter of taste. Its not a brainless shouter for kid, its the thinking men`s game ! Try harder and succes will come i assure you.


first thing first, i'm not running an lrm boat but an 3 erlaser boat, i'm just trying to help the poor firesupport lobby get some fighting chance. the problem is with many suggestions here is that the 1000m max range is becoming redundant and there's more and more lobbying to get in closer for brawl. if you have ping and lag like an aussie player has to suffer you'd know you'd wouldn't survive a moment. before this patch zooming on targets 800 to 1000m was hit and miss because of rendering doesn't kick in you'd spot them from sparks of guass fire or something and your reticle going red would indicate there is something there. maybey that's why there's this push towards closer brawling matches to cover up these graphic bugs. yeah scoring over a 100 damage is fairly easy or even 400 when you can really spot many out in the open.

View PostWalk, on 04 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Hi! Just because you aren't smart/good enough to engage in long range battles doesn't mean there aren't pilots out there who are. I suggest you re-evaluate your suggestions.


what's there to re-evaluate? the majority of battles consists of a group of mechs taking cover all the way till theres a secluded part of the map where they all beat eachothers brains out at 500m or less. not being able to spot targets from further away usually means you're deadweight for the team. the main stratigies being played really is forcing me to brawl when my server can't handle it which is discouraging for a free to play game, only caustic valley {pehaps the forest ones too} offers anything of solid longrange oppotunities.


View PostAlexa Steel, on 04 December 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

You know, it wasnt that different in TT. Different folks use different weapons, to fit their playing style, alot of times people play in a similar way, thats why some weapon systems are more popular, or more easy to use. HOWEVER that does not mean the weapons "left" are bad. ITs a matter of mastering the weapon and in MWOs case its not as easy as in other Mechwarrior titles, wich I like.


so why do we always see a new config or weapon suddenly appear in droves? because unfortunately noone is prepaired to man up on a challenging weapon and they want easy wins. that's the majority and it's them doing there jenner, streak cat, ecm. so we come to the situation now where the majority dictate how a battle is played out leaving little oppotunity for other stratagies to play out. it's survival of the fittest and you'll find these rarer combos like us being exploited easier as the matches become more oriented in another direction. you'll find if you travel in group with longrange weapons the closerange weapons are better, can reach you to kill you and you let your team down by being underpowered. if you don't travel with the group staying on the sidelines they will out number your team and beat them. then they steam roll over you with heavy acs tons of close range lasers etc cause you have no counter to the superior close range firepower. as everyone says stick together focus fire then you have to say "i'll try if you don't take cover in a corner otherwise i can't see them to hit them" so your sniper missle boat does very little in the battle and awaits to be rolled over. you just can't sway the majority wanting brawls to support what is most effective for your gameplay. end of diversity on the battlefield.

View Postpaladin yst, on 04 December 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Just slam ur lrms at 180, who needs lock lol, they travel in straight lines anyway, just use them as u would a crossbow


sorry mate this must be the biggest facepalm moment of my life. you're suggesting that LONG range missles are to be used like CLOSE range cannons!....... do you even understand how bad that sounds? like anyone will happily use lrms like that especially when they take on anything else who will close that 180 in a heart beat and render them useless. seriously it's such a bad idea and proves exactly what this topic is about. longrange has become so impractacle that someone seriously suggests using lrms as closerange weapons. i'm saying some of the parts in this game need adressing not the game is so broke i have to run backwards to run forwards.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 05 December 2012 - 12:24 AM.


#22 Adrienne Vorton

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:51 AM

the only weapons that suffer from ECM are the autoaim ones... all others work pretty fine... i for my part always have a tag laser with me now (yep, in ANY possible Mech), that helps spotting and focussing targets alot, if the enemy has ECM´s with them...

ECM is a gamechanger, but it´s not a bad one at all, we´ll just have to get used to it...

ECM doesn´t block heat signatures btw, so if you think that "close combat is a must now", come and run into the enemy snipers :o only because you have to be closer to put the lovely red box around the target, that doesn´t mean mechs are invisible...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 05 December 2012 - 12:58 AM.


#23 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:27 AM

i never use the red box for sniping you use the red arrows if you can't get LOS and the reticle turning red cause rendering at 600m plus is hit and miss for seeing the physical outline. the problem is the maps are small and offer lots of cover so trying to take on targets from range leaves little oppotunity to use long range material as originally intended. enemies are now more than ever sticking to enclosed routes to avoid people like me peppering them and they get frustrated cause they can't see where it's coming from unless its up in their face. people just hate longrange weapons because usually it takes too much screwing around scanning horizons to find and retaliate against hidden mechs and they can't attack the firepower that out ranges them. which is why we have more brawling advantages being developed {weaker gauss anyone?} that's another reason why lights are popular cause they have the speed to change that balance in a second and can be coring your rear end and they can take cover quickly. believe me in the scheme of things you are being outgunned and out manouvered by a game making more consessions and support towards brawl play. longrange play is becoming exstinct because it's too inefficient.

#24 zariaah

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:31 AM

sigh.

just played maybe a dozen games straight.
getting owned in my heavies by ravens,jenners sporting ecm.

its not that i suck at aiming, its just the few pot shots i could take at them are now gone because there is LOTS of cover on the maps... and ecm just helps that even more:
if you don't visually see them, you probably have one up your a-five-five right now shooting you in the back.

i am not a founder. i cannot afford goodies like endosteel and xl engines.
these light mechs now out-gun ftp or lightly tweaked heavies.

the games have now been reduced to who can charge the enemies base faster with fast ecm'ed mechs.

#25 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

yes close quater battles are becoming the way of MWO i've seen people take victories with lrm's but only when ecm is not about and the target can't find cover AND they can hold the lock on. far too inefficient for combat as far as i'm concerned. lrm's are officially second best soi'm stuck with one cause brawls with many mechs still lag so i can't swap to srms, so mastering an awesome is going to be long and tiring now, as i use the lrm varient finding no targets and being constantly flanked by mechs that never turn up on radar. just like a sniper in any old shooter game, i though MWO would be different, really it isn't.

#26 Pinosaur

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

Atlas founder here...running my D-DC post patch is still fun because I read the ECM post, & immediately swapped my 3LRM15's for 3SRM6's + ECM

Also since this phase 2 patch, I have been only running pugs, to see whats going on with them.
2/3rds have been cap races, and the rest were brawls where the cappers both took the same route.

Really really ready for an alternative to assault !

#27 aspect

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostVapor Trail, on 04 December 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:



You're telling me you've actually dedicated 45+ tons of a 65 ton mech to weapons, leaving twenty tons or less to engine, cockpit, gyro, internals, extra heat sinks, extra ammo, armor...

Holy...

There's a thin line between Genius and Madness... and you're camped squarely on it.



Works for me! And this is on Caustic...

Note: I have never claimed to be anything but a terrible shot.


Edited by aspect, 05 December 2012 - 07:47 PM.


#28 TheTrap

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

View Postaspect, on 05 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:



Works for me! And this is on Caustic...

Note: I have never claimed to be anything but a terrible shot.



Who are you kidding mate ?

2xppc + 2xgr = 14+30 = 44 tons

Catapult chassis is 6.5 tons, so 50.5 used

Mech's total free crits = 10 + 12 + 2 + 12 + 10 + 1 + 4 = 51

Assuming 5 tons of ammo (50 rounds), 55.5t

Armour is 32 points per ton. Assuming you have only,

5 points head, 20 points center, 10 points for both sides and 5 points for both ears and legs, with NO rear armour, you have used about 2 tons of armour with basically a paper mech.

So that's 57.5 tons with 7.5 tons left with 51-3-3-7-7-5 =26 crit slots

So you HAVE to get endo, so 12 crits left.

That would bring your available tonnage up to 10.75 tons.

So you're left with a few options. Standard is too heavy so xl engine probably. Guessing it's the 195/200 with 2-3 dhs.

So now what ?

You end up with a mech that has virtually no armour, slow as crap even with an xl, overheats in 2-3 volleys as well as limited gauss ammo.

Logic?

PS: I apologise for any inaccuracies, I'm calculating off memory from the mechlab as I'm not at home.

#29 aspect

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

View PostTheTrap, on 05 December 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Who are you kidding mate ?

I don't understand your point. The video of it running is right there. I miss half my shots and still put down 500dmg + 6 assists, on caustic. Close up on cold maps it's pretty savage as pretty much everything hits and it pretty much all goes into center torsos. I guess I could have made 10 videos and cherry-picked the best one where it looked the most impressive?

If you have a different mech, that's fine...but I'm not really sure what you are getting at.

Edited by aspect, 05 December 2012 - 08:32 PM.


#30 Rhent

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostUrsh, on 04 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

To be fair, over the last two weeks the game had turned into a lot of teams playing longrange snipers or lrm boats, and just sitting behind ridges. When you had two teams playing this tactic it led to extremely boring games for someone who likes a mobile battle.


And now the game is a brawl fest. A mindless brawlfest. Where you hug your ECM boat and hide behind hills until you can find the enemy doing the exact same thing and then fire your SRM's and AC/20's. Yup, thats variety there.

#31 TheTrap

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

View Postaspect, on 05 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:


I don't understand your point. The video of it running is right there. I miss half my shots and still put down 500dmg + 6 assists, on caustic. Close up on cold maps it's pretty savage as pretty much everything hits and it pretty much all goes into center torsos. I guess I could have made 10 videos and cherry-picked the best one where it looked the most impressive?

If you have a different mech, that's fine...but I'm not really sure what you are getting at.


I'm coming from a builder's pov.

Don't need to watch the video.

Everyone says they don't cherry pick but 99% of the time they do...

So did I nail it ? No armour (relies on people taking the shots for you or you die in 5 seconds), inmobile/unadaptable/overheats too quickly in sustained fights ?

#32 General Taskeen

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

Opposing team has 8 ECM Mechs with Streaks/LRMs. Good luck and enjoy.

#33 aspect

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostTheTrap, on 05 December 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I'm coming from a builder's pov.

Don't need to watch the video.

Everyone says they don't cherry pick but 99% of the time they do...

So did I nail it ? No armour (relies on people taking the shots for you or you die in 5 seconds), inmobile/unadaptable/overheats too quickly in sustained fights ?


I was going to write a post about how I got it to this point, my thought process after playing 50kxp worth of K2 matches , how I play it and how it's most effective etc, but then I got to the last part of your post and realized you are just an assh*le trying to burn me on playing a "bad" mech for some reason.

Enjoy your enormous sense of self-satisfaction.

#34 MrPenguin

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:16 PM

View PostTheTrap, on 05 December 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Logic?

It kills an atlas in 2-3 shots.
It may be a glass cannon, but its one that can completely kill you before you notice it.

Edited by MrPenguin, 05 December 2012 - 09:18 PM.


#35 TheTrap

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

View Postaspect, on 05 December 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:


I was going to write a post about how I got it to this point, my thought process after playing 50kxp worth of K2 matches , how I play it and how it's most effective etc, but then I got to the last part of your post and realized you are just an assh*le trying to burn me on playing a "bad" mech for some reason.

Enjoy your enormous sense of self-satisfaction.


lol. So 195/65*16.2*1.1=53.4 hmmm xl195 engine. Confirms my suspicions.

I'm basically a min maxer/stat freak. Numbers don't lie. I own a K2 as well and I put out numbers higher than 500 easily without sacrificing armour.

Your video showcased one thing. Your mech didn't get hit and if the enemy team had brains/lights you'd be toast due to almost no armour. Also in burst engagements your ppcs would be useless.

Don't want to say you're a liar but your video clearly is a cherry picked one displaying what that build can do in the most optimal of situations for it (besides heat)

#36 Gaden Phoenix

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

@Aspect

While TheTrap is being a total elitism noob, It is quite hard to put 2 ppcs and 2 gauss into a catapult without sacrificing alot of other stuff, like armor.

As a light mech jenner (without ecm), I like to go from mechs like yours.

It is still a viable glass cannon build though. I have seem some pro, that can aim and hit my striving jenner from incredible distances :)

Back to topic, I think long range weapons currently, need alot alot of skill to play. You need to:
1. factor in lag
2. factor in lead time before a shot if fired
3. lead your shot, factoring in were the enemy is going

This (and the weight issue) cause many to go CQ instead, as you can pack more weapons inside (higher dps/heat) and it is easier to aim.

I think alot of issues will be solved when the netcode lagging issue is fixed.

Regards

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 05 December 2012 - 09:24 PM.


#37 MrPenguin

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:22 PM

TheTrap, I've played with some incredibly skilled players who swear by that build and can use it with terrifying efficiency. You really should stop your banter, its unneeded. And not only that, this is mechwarrior, everyone is allowed to make the mech they chose. Your elitist boasting is insulting to the entire fanbase. Theirs no need for you to insult his build, especially since its a build thats been proven in battle.

Edited by MrPenguin, 05 December 2012 - 09:23 PM.


#38 TheTrap

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:25 PM

My good sir. An atlas has approximately 170-200 points of damage before its center collapses.

10+10+15+15=50 damage

So 4 volleys would be required at the same location.

Most maps/engagements if you haven't realised are close ranged fights with no room for sniping.

I don't disagree at 800+ sustained long ranged fights with your team taking the damage for you PLUS with no lights banzaing/flanking you, it could potentially work.

Any player worth his salt would notice a ppcs + gauss flying towards him anyways. Why would a good player even be in the open ?

#39 Asmosis

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

had a lot of fun with my gauss cat last night, just shoot at the ones that dont have a blue arrow above them.

People seem to be standing still a lot more when they are in ECM range, makes it much easier to use ballistics.

I use 4xML as backup weaponry, I can't imagine dropping another 8-10 tons from something to fit PPC's on.

Edited by Asmosis, 05 December 2012 - 09:30 PM.


#40 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:28 PM

i can say that the double ppc config is a traditional mech custome boat for snipers. i want to do that with 3 erppc's for my awesome but the devs still have to fix it up so i'm running lasers for now.

first caustic vally is really the only map that allows good sniper play, so the results aren't surprising, you really can use fire support mech here, just try snow city or river city and see if you can match it.

honestly i loved to see a vid being posted for support of the long range lobby and it's a build i'd usually approve of but now unless you have a buddy being picked on you'll be easily flanked. that build is really for skilled shooters cause you can't afford to miss, simply cause most closerange mechs can outgun you and easily out manouver you. i've almost died knocking out a centurion with a commando accomplace, don't know what happened to the commando but yeah an awesome that has a third more armour can easily get cut by medium lasers and a bunch of srms and machine guns. the oppotunities to kill atlas and stuff at long range are few compared to face to face brawls, the theory to kill in 2 shoots is correct but the practice, never happens.





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