235 replies to this topic

[Sen]

So they need to nerf ECM because streak cat pilots are crying into their p***ed in cheerios?

Leave ECM alone, it's PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Adrienne Vorton]

teamwork...it´s moving forward - or better said, it´s finally getting into the game... i´ll play a lot more matches to get a concrete picture of the situation, but in all matches i played yesterday, i was always be able to use the streaks on my phract... and thanks to my TAGlaser that is grouped in my lasergroup (which i can hold down for a good while w/o overheating) my teams LRM´s have at least one target to shoot at...

in pugmatches though, where 8 egos compete against each other to be the first to get the other 8 egos down, ECM is a real game changer... i guess it´s too much of a dream, that it might change the way to think as well...

(no offense to those, who actually play thoughtful and team oriented in pugs, but i´d say you guys are a minority there)

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 05 December 2012 - 05:17 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

Working as intended, even if unbalanced.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Since I know I'm going to get flamed for disagreeing with the OP about it anyways, but something needs to be said.

Learn some simple tactics, if there are a group of mechs then you can see which one is carrying ECM by the indicator on their head. Kill them first. If you can't see the ECM indicator then remember which variants carry ECM and take them down. The ECM is located in a specific part of the mech. Destroy it by concentrating fire on that area, you destroy ECM. When you are in short range and can't get a lock for SSRM's, tell your ECM capable mech to hit the "J" button and counter the ECM of the enemy. You can lock on then.

If you can't type the target in because you're in the middle of a battle, then maybe it's time you look for a group of friends on TS or C3 to play with. Communication is key and will turn the tide of battle.

[Pariah Devalis]

The problem with ECM isn't in its function, so much as, I feel, the map design. If it functioned as it does now with actual lines of sight beyond 400 meters on most maps, it would feel far more balanced, but given that every map with the possible exception of caustic valley or frozen city is fought at spitting range, anyways, you cannot see them coming, then you cannot see period, because you are jammed.

Honestly, I feel like they could have kept ECM detection range at 350-400 meters and kept it a highly viable choice (with the effective bubble still 180 m). That, and making BAP extend the detection range a hair would be fantastic. Again, it seems to me it isn't the function of ECM that is too powerful, but the ranges at which it is set (either directly from the module or indirectly from terrain) and the limited counter options..

And by limited, I mean C-ECM is basically the only thing.

I was watching team comp develop last night on some premades, and it went pants on head ********. I am talking two ECM equipped ravens and three ECM equipped atlases on an 8 man team, covering AC-20 mechs who could almost freely waltz up and shoot people in the face because no matter where they went they were radar invisible until it was too late to avoid getting blasted - and unless you had 5 ECM mechs, you were not going to fully counter their ECM, as well.

I am fully for a game changing ECM -option-, but not when it goes from "option" to "necessity."

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 December 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

And this is why all the people saying ECM isn't unbalanced are simply Counterstrike players who are looking to may MWO the same game they used to play.

While it is true that I do play CS and indeed I even play the Cicada because it gives me the twitchy fast-paced close-ranged gameplay I've grown to like, it's unreasonable to assume that everyone does so. Besides, what's so wrong with Counter Strike? It's not the most-played FPS on the planet because it sucks, that's for sure.

[Pertti Munapirtti]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

And this is why all the people saying ECM isn't unbalanced are simply Counterstrike players who are looking to may MWO the same game they used to play.

Yes I play a Commando because it resembles a counter-terrorism operative and the hand laser reminds me of the familiar accuracy of guns in CS

[wanderer]

Reviorry, on 05 December 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Same here. Its nice to run a Com-2d and not worry about getting cored right away. Though I do agree there is a balance issue. There are a couple of solutions to this.

1. Change the longer lock on to LRMs only. This way LRM support is still viable, you just have to work with your scouts a little better. Also make it possible to lock on using LOS. This just means no Targeting data will be given on the mech. In CBT LRMs are indirect fire weapons. Its why it is so hard to hit with a meaningful amount of missiles. Obviously this wont work in a live action shooter cause you cant select a grid to fire your LRMS at unless you are really high up. but if you can see your target i dont see why you shouldnt be able to manually target them

Drop the range to 630 as well, as networking is also screwed up by ECM.

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2. To help with the SSRM nerf people are complaining about. Make it possible to fire them with out the Streak System while the are in the AOF. In the CBT rules the ECM disables the Streak system on the missiles, when they come into the AOF of the ECM unit. The Launchers are still viable, you just lack the auto lock and kill function that has been the favorite for quite some time.

In other words, Streak racks function as standard SRM 2's when the 'Mech is under ECM, and resume attempts to lock if they clear ECM- which is a lot less painful that utterly neutering a Streak Cat. This is how Streaks function under heavy enough ECM to jam them (normally Angel ECM does this rather than GECM, see below).

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3. Get rid of the whole Counter ECM thing. That is technically a completely seperate system and completely outta context with the stated goal of the game. Having a built in counter makes it a EWE, or Electronic Warfare Equpipment. And in game terms it weighs 7 tons and takes up 5 crits.

Untrue. ECM can function in ECCM mode, EW equipment is actually the primitive incarnation of the GECM/ECM pack.

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Oh and after a bit of research I found something else. There are two different kinds of ECM.
The Gaurdian ECM which affect C3 networks, Beagle Active Probes, NARC Launchers and Artmis system.
And the Angle ECM which affects all the same systems plus the Streak Launchers, and Targeting Computers.

Angel (not Angle- "Guardian Angel", get it? ) ECM is a later-tech upgrade- aside from the broader ability to interfere, it's effectively equal to -two- GECM/ECM pods when determining who's stronger in an ECM/ECCM matchup.

And as noted, NONE of them have any effect on standard LRM use, other than hosing C3 networking if it passes through their area of effect.

[Jello2142]

I have a love/hate relationship with ECM at the moment.

1)In the 8v8 drops I have had the groups end up being pretty much the same mechs. In itself not a big deal, but in each occasion it ends up becoming a gang fight on top of a hill each group was cresting. Kind of gets old fast when each battle is well that.

2)It is nice to have a envelope of cover from the ECM. It is also nice to see the level of team work step up in having mobile ECM's with different pieces of the group. A commando can shoot off to a couple of large slow mechs that need to cross the "road" and offer some sort of mobile cover from missle fire.

3) Intelligent gaming: In other words the different functions of ECM and the choices a pilot can make in it's use. A nice thing to see.

4)Scouting: It is almost viable, if it were not for the death ball everyone runs. Still kind of asking for a swift death if you want to tag.

Overall ECM did what it said it was going to do however I do believe it can and will get some tweaking because as it is right now each match turns into MWO:Death Ball Eddition. I like a good old brawl but there is only so many bar fights I can get into before I stop going to the bar.

[Sayyid]

So they didnt fix the frame rate issues or the netcode lag shield then?

[WarfieldSRT]

I've been a Commando pilot since I started playing. Mostly the 3A was my favorite variant. I used streaks for their ability to hit other lights. I would have liked an SRM6 to be more viable, but that reliability of 2xSSRM2s was just somethig I couldn't pass up and the damage numbers confirmed it. I had decided to hold off on making any judgements about ECM prior to actually getting to see it work in game.

So now that I've played it, I hate it. I hate it about as much as I hated StreakCats. But at least I knew how to handle them. "Streakcat in F6, bravo." And then we would kill it with fire, and life was good for my little Commando once again. Now its the HalfStreakmando with ECM that has me thinking... if Streakboating was the problem, as indicated in the patch notes "I can't wait to destory those streakcats" or something along those lines, why not just make a little change to make streaks more situationaly effective? Because Streaks are STILL a problem, they're just coming from different mechs now.

[Bishop L]

Pertti Munapirtti, on 05 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Stay mad, missilefa
gs.

I don't appreciate being reffered to in this manner.

I personally had no problems running my C4 last night. With proper teamwork I found that I could perform my role just fine. I was hindered some by ECM usage, but overall was still able to support my teammates and provide them with LRM fire.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pertti Munapirtti, on 05 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Stay mad, missilefags.

I love how stupid some people are. ECM is a bit over powered, But that just means I will be trying new things to make you pay for using it.

As to your comment on Missile users...
...
...
My Fire support as an Infantry Marine could kill multiple enemies so they couldn't kill me. I was always thankful to know someone could rain death from a far at the bastirds who were trying to kill me, before I could kill them. Any other way of thinking shows a lack of experience in the fine are of killing people in quantity.

Kthnx

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 December 2012 - 05:57 AM.

[Pertti Munapirtti]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

I love how stupid some people are. ECM is a bit over powered, But that just means I will be trying new things to make you pay for using it.

You have a founder's tag, so you're the one paying, not I. Nice insecurity too, Mr. "Marine".

[KuruptU4Fun]

Pertti Munapirtti, on 05 December 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

You have a founder's tag, so you're the one paying, not I. Nice insecurity too, Mr. "Marine".

You're taught 1 thing in the military really quickly: Adapt and overcome....

[Joseph Mallan]

Pertti Munapirtti, on 05 December 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

You have a founder's tag, so you're the one paying, not I. Nice insecurity too, Mr. "Marine".

Sorry Pertti, you misunderstood me. By paying for it... I mean I am working on a way to kill you even if you are using it. As Kurupt said, Adapt and Overcome. It doesn't matter what "tag" you are wearing, I look to find a way to kill everyone. But thanks for playing. Come again!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 December 2012 - 06:12 AM.

[Lt Limpy]

The problem with ECM is not it being massively overpowered, but the fact that it's new and SOME people haven't quite figured out his to counter it effectively yet. It was the same with the whining about streak cats; to counter a streak cat effectively STAY THE **** OUT OF ITS RANGE. Streak cats are only powerful at knife fight ranges, yet people still dart into the effective range and try to brawl and then whine "OMG OP!" when they get wasted. The proper counter to a streak boat is long range. Again, ECM isn't so much a be-all-end-all, but a rock-paper-scissors countering game. For some reason a lot of MWO players don't seem to get this concept, and expect their personal "rock" to beat everyone else's "rock", and if not the enemy rock MUST be OP.

In short, limit the amount of ECM per match, but not neuter its effectiveness (that part is fine). Take the time to learn how to counter it rather than bashing your heads against the wall.

[QuantumButler]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

And this is why all the people saying ECM isn't unbalanced are simply Counterstrike players who are looking to may MWO the same game they used to play. 'If it isn't a slugfest and I have to think, then it needs to be changed so it's a slugfest!'.

The difference between those who whined about LRMs and those pointing out the unbalanced nature of ECM is that there are verifiable and objective logic reasons why ECM is out of balance and devolutionary to the game, whereas the LRM whiners were simply 'I hate LRMs'.

Ahahahahaha

>Implying lrms and srrms need any skill at all.

Okay buddy, sure.

[Pertti Munapirtti]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

i look to find a way to kill everyone.

I personally don't think it's very appropriate to kill your teammates. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

[Tice Daurus]

Here's the problem I have with ECM:

If I can physically see enemy mechs...wide in the open, and I have LRM's, and I am outside of the ECM bubble, but those mechs are inside of the ECM bubble, I can't target them. Even though my mech can physically seem them 1000-900 meters away, and they walk the heck up with short ranged weapons, my LRM's are useless as long as they stay inside of the ECM bubble. This should NOT be happening. If I can see you, regardless if you have ECM or not, and I am outside of the ECM bubble, I still should be able to target you.

Now, I could understand that if you have ECM, it might take me longer to target you, even if I am outside of the range of ECM bubble of 180 meters due to broadcast interfereance and BAP wouldn't help. But if I can see you in broad daylight and out in the open, my targeting computer should be able to establish a lock-on in plain sight.

The way we played ECM with table-top, in order to stop a enemy mech on the opposite team, you would have to have a mech with ECM get in range of 180 meters or less and that jamming signal would disrupt targeting sensors and computer causing any missile mechs in the range of the ECM bubble to lose lock and cause LRM's to be useless. The way it is in the game now, it literally breaks the game and makes LRM's near useless. If I can see you, I should still be able to hit you, however that means as an LRM mech, I have to be in the open and that should put me in further danger of being spotted with long range direct fire weapons.

And I will say...Increasing TAG range is not an answer to this. And I know some people will disagree with this, but all weapons should have a balance of some type and right now with the way ECM is in the game, it's makes it to where LRM's are near useless. Also Streaks are now near useless as you have to be within a 20 meter range to use streak weapons between 200 and 180 meters. 20 meters just to use streaks? Look, I know streak cats were highly OP but again, not the answer to this.

There has to be some common sense and some balance to this and right now...this isn't it.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 05 December 2012 - 06:17 AM.