103 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

athlonduke, on 05 December 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

my problem is they are skipping all over the screen. I can barely tell where they are most of the time

Learn 2 aim!

Sorry, but that's what everyone tells me and I have the same problem

[athlonduke]

lol

[Chet Manley]

DG-K2s were OP
Streaks were OP
8 mans were OP
laser boats were OP
LRMs were OP
ECM is now OP

Thus the cycle continues.

[DerSpecht]

Get your own ECM ligh close, switch to counter mode and hit em with streaks. COM-2D is doing this job fine...

[BigJim]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

So... if your lights beat their lights, then you win? So we're back to light mechs being the most powerful mechs on the field; how is that right?

No, of course not that's just silly talk.
However, most competitive units will agree that often, scouts can be the most important mechs on the field - Iirc it was Glory (or was it Gauss Dragon?) who expressly stated this in the most recent RHoD pod, and I agree wholeheartedly.

It all depends upon how you define "powerful". The way most pugs see power is different to how a unit will, just because someone with an XL300 can run ring-a-round your Atlas in some random game doesn't equate to "most powerful mech in the game".
Against a team who know their business, attacking a force of enemy mechs with a scout is a quick way to suicide, even trying to attack 2x will cause you more damage than it is often worth, unless your attack is meant to achieve some larger aim (like delaying reinforcements, drawing forces off the front-line, etc..).

By thier nature, scouts operate away from the main body, so it's easier to locate and hit a Light with a Light than it is to hit a medium or heavy - Because that Med/Heavy is going to be with all his buds, all of them keeping eyes-out and hitting you the second you pop up.
Yes, a well used scout is a very powerful asset on the field, but just going for balls-out kills?

No, it's silly to use a scout for a heavies' job.



Back on to your point though; If your Lights beat their Lights then you have a number of natural advantages;

1) First-kill syndrome; Once you've gained a kill, the enemy now have to kill 2x of yours in order to win, this is an advantage.
You can retreat into cover and force them to come to you, to push into your defensive set-up
Knowing the map, you can often predict how they will come, and all the good things that flow from this.

2) You have a greater degree of map control, just like it has always been since before ECM.
When your scouts are free of harassment from enemy scouts, you can scout out their positions and unit-comp in relative safety, getting locks, LoS and otherwise relaying intel over comms.

3) Related to #2, you can dictate the terms of the engagement. You can feint, giving the enemy red blips in one spot and the main body manoeuvring elsewhere, you can get eyes on the enemy and predict where they will come at you (and come at you they will, given you're at least one kill up on their tally).
You can hit the enemy cap (or other objectives when new modes are intoduced), forcing the enemy to send heavies or mediums back to base to deal with you, then scooting out to leave a slow mech stranded, or even 1v1'ing him to give you an even greater numbers advantage.

4) Back-harassment - This is the closest aspect to what you were talking about, and that is once the main engagement is committed to, you can circle around and start hitting the backs of enemy mechs.

With all the megatonnes of fire-power flying around, you won't get a bunch of kills (and ask any half-decent scout pilot how many kills they bag in a typical competition-drop, I'd say they're lucky to get more than 2x, and that's if he kills both enemy scouts with no help from his wingman), because it's more likely that a bigger mech will get those killing-blows, but you will help weaken the enemy, and it's possible that a brawl that was going badly could be turned around and narrowly won by 2x very good light pilots swarming an enemy at the right time - If you are free of the enemy scouts first.



Conversely, if you let the enemy scouts beat you, then you've just handed the enemy all the advantages listed above and more that I haven't gone into.
Well done! Bet your team's happy you came along!



So in summary, the reason most people QQ about scouts being the most powerful mech in the game is because they've made a dumb move (it happens to all of us at times) and gotten separated from the pack or pushed too far ahead of the formation, and because they're not on comms, so when that Jenner focusses on you, you can't ask for help or nobody is willing to give it.

But if you get on a real team and try those same shenanigans that serve you so well in pubbie games, then you'll be toast, sharpish.

Scouts are powerful for altogether different reasons in real matches, some of which I have tried to outline in this post for you.
Netcode is bad for everyone in this game, that scout you can barely hit is struggling equally to hit your scouts too, don't forget - and the lagshield is as strong in your team's supa-speed Centy doing 130 as it is for my team's Jenner or Raven.

Edited by BigJim, 05 December 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[Codejack]

Chet Manley, on 05 December 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

DG-K2s were OP
Streaks were OP
8 mans were OP
laser boats were OP
LRMs were OP
ECM is now OP

Thus the cycle continues.

Yea, see, I don't think any of it is "OP," I think that it is just badly balanced, not to mention suffering from some fundamental programming issues.

Streakcats only got complaints because they could actually hit what they were aiming at; never mind that they had to close, get and maintain lock, etc, it was a heavy mech that could actually kill lights, and since it was the only medium, heavy, or assault mech that could do so, it was labeled "OP."

Now we have ECM, whose only effective counter is.... more ECM! Oh, sure, you can try to stay 180-200m away from a mech that is twice as fast as you, but I have the most hellacious time trying to do that to an Atlas in my 80kph Catapult. Against a commando or Cicada, it's hopeless.

In the meantime, the only thing stopping AC and Gauss from killing everyone the second they see you is that same lag problem, and of course the new jamming bug.

As usual, it's a game of rock-paper-hand grenade.

[0NEHALF]

Oh No i cant kill light without my streak!!!! This what u do: take 4 Ml(or 5), aim for legs? head? center torso - kill him. Works on my cicada))))))

[Codejack]

BigJim, on 05 December 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Scouts are powerful for altogether different reasons in real matches, some of which I have tried to outline in this post for you.

OK, real quick then, help me out: How am I supposed to loadout any of my Catapults (A1, C4, K2) to kill lights? If they don't have ECM, then SSRMs will work, but if they do.....?

Lasers don't hit. SRMs don't hit. AC don't hit. Even when I see them hit, THEY DON'T HIT.

That is why my Catapults are now sitting on a shelf, and I play my ECM Commando almost exclusively, which brings us to the subject of "powerful:"

My Commando does not fear Awesomes, or Dragons, or Catapults, or even Atlases unless they also have ECM. Why? Because pretty much no one in the game is capable of actually hitting a 130kph light mech circling them with anything but streaks. I circle-of-deathed an Atlas, a Dragon, and a Yen-Lo-Wang in the same match last night, then went and capped their base.

Streakcats were fun because you went hunting lights (which were still fast enough to run away), but had to be careful because there were other mechs that could take you down, but you were usually faster than them. In a the ECM Commando, the only thing that I fear is 2 light mechs, at least 1 of which has ECM, and then only because they are likely to be as fast as me.

FLahenO, on 05 December 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

Oh No i cant kill light without my streak!!!! This what u do: take 4 Ml(or 5), aim for legs? head? center torso - kill him. Works on my cicada))))))

Did no one watch my video of shooting a Jenner with SRMs, the missiles hitting him, but no damage happening? It happens with lasers and AC, too. I can't kill if the server disagrees about whether or not I actually hit.

[0NEHALF]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

OK, real quick then, help me out: How am I supposed to loadout any of my Catapults (A1, C4, K2) to kill lights? If they don't have ECM, then SSRMs will work, but if they do.....?

Lasers don't hit. SRMs don't hit. AC don't hit. Even when I see them hit, THEY DON'T HIT.

That is why my Catapults are now sitting on a shelf, and I play my ECM Commando almost exclusively, which brings us to the subject of "powerful:"

My Commando does not fear Awesomes, or Dragons, or Catapults, or even Atlases unless they also have ECM. Why? Because pretty much no one in the game is capable of actually hitting a 130kph light mech circling them with anything but streaks. I circle-of-deathed an Atlas, a Dragon, and a Yen-Lo-Wang in the same match last night, then went and capped their base.

Streakcats were fun because you went hunting lights (which were still fast enough to run away), but had to be careful because there were other mechs that could take you down, but you were usually faster than them. In a the ECM Commando, the only thing that I fear is 2 light mechs, at least 1 of which has ECM, and then only because they are likely to be as fast as me.



Did no one watch my video of shooting a Jenner with SRMs, the missiles hitting him, but no damage happening? It happens with lasers and AC, too. I can't kill if the server disagrees about whether or not I actually hit.

Well somethingwong with ur aiming dude i do it every time))) plus collision is coming back (i hope soon) and that will sort out all the problems with lights (i remember those times - u hit the ground, u dont stand up )))

[Wrenchfarm]

The lag shield is a real thing and it's annoying.

But we have to live with it for now. So the question is, are you going to just throw in the towel, or learn to take the little buggers down?

Lead your lasers. Take a shot way too far ahead of the enemy, let him run into it, and see when your cursor turns red. This gives you a rough idea of how much lag your dealing with, adjust your aim accordingly. Is it a 100% solution? NOPE. But better than letting a Jenner run rampant.

I've also had good success using SRM packs and the much maligned LBX. Shotgun rules apply, if you can't hit em with one shot, use ten. If you have a mid-weight ballistics mech or a few free missile slots, you might consider trying them as a light killer sometime.

Hopefully decent net-code will crash-land on all these Jenner "aces" soon and we can see them used in the proper scout/flanker role they are intended for, not circle brawling Heavies to death.

[Codejack]

FLahenO, on 05 December 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

Well somethingwong with ur aiming dude i do it every time))) plus collision is coming back (i hope soon) and that will sort out all the problems with lights (i remember those times - u hit the ground, u dont stand up )))

I don't think collisions are going to help. Certainly, the netcode fix *should* solve the problem with the lag (which is why my shots don't hit), but then we will be dealing with a completely unbalanced system, again.

Wrenchfarm, on 05 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

The lag shield is a real thing and it's annoying.

But we have to live with it for now. So the question is, are you going to just throw in the towel, or learn to take the little buggers down?

Commando-2D, 3xSSRM2, ECM, done.

Wrenchfarm, on 05 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Lead your lasers. Take a shot way too far ahead of the enemy, let him run into it, and see when your cursor turns red. This gives you a rough idea of how much lag your dealing with, adjust your aim accordingly. Is it a 100% solution? NOPE. But better than letting a Jenner run rampant.

I have my K2 set up with 4 LLAS right now; big mechs get hit pretty easy, lights don't register damage most of the time.

Wrenchfarm, on 05 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

I've also had good success using SRM packs and the much maligned LBX. Shotgun rules apply, if you can't hit em with one shot, use ten. If you have a mid-weight ballistics mech or a few free missile slots, you might consider trying them as a light killer sometime.

My A1 Cat has 6xSRM6 loaded right now. I have a video of me shooting a Jenner 4 times and not doing any damage.

Wrenchfarm, on 05 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Hopefully decent net-code will crash-land on all these Jenner "aces" soon and we can see them used in the proper scout/flanker role they are intended for, not circle brawling Heavies to death.

Heavies, nothing, I'm taking out Atlases and Awesomes in my Commando!

Edited by Codejack, 05 December 2012 - 05:24 AM.

[Moorecroft]

I pilot a Raven-3L (have been since open beta) and mostly my targets are other lights. If they have streaks & ECM, I leave my own ECM on disrupt because I find that most of them aren't great at leading and I can beat them in the laserfight, even if technically they have better firepower.
I know we shouldn't have to lead, netcode, etc. All of those arguments. Good times, but it's not that hard to deal with. Chain fire, trial and error the lead (I find between 1 and 3 mechlengths is about right), and then fire for effect once you figure it.

About 1/3 to half of my damage comes from the lasers, depending on the match.

CAVEATS: Things that I know.
Lights sometimes jump/blink back and forth. It is a pain, and it makes it difficult.
Lack of collision makes piloting much easier.
There are pilots out there that are great at leading. I've been hit whilst maneuvering with all kinds of things, lasers, gauss, ACs, SRMs etc.


Having said all of that, I still prioritise enemy ECM mechs so I can use my streaks without having to worry about reciprocation. Unsupported, non-ECM streaklights are delicious snacks now. As someone said, ECM is a game changer.

Edit: The commando with Counter-ECM and 3SSRMs doesn't really do that well vs RVN-3Ls in my experience, since the 3L has 2 SSRMs to fire back, much more armour and usually a few lasers which they can do good damage with if they're not crap. So yeah, not exactly a hard counter unless you have two COM-2Ds, but that's a whole different story.

Edited by Moorecroft, 05 December 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

It's not right. An assault can kill Lights, its just that we need to do it at range. Lights normally have short range weapons, and Assaults are hampered at close fighting due to lack of reflex speed. So killing a scout is supposed to be killed before they get into knife range.

[Codejack]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

It's not right. An assault can kill Lights, its just that we need to do it at range. Lights normally have short range weapons, and Assaults are hampered at close fighting due to lack of reflex speed. So killing a scout is supposed to be killed before they get into knife range.

...but now you can't even see them until they within 200m...

[BigJim]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

OK, real quick then, help me out: How am I supposed to loadout any of my Catapults (A1, C4, K2) to kill lights? If they don't have ECM, then SSRMs will work, but if they do.....?

Lasers don't hit. SRMs don't hit. AC don't hit. Even when I see them hit, THEY DON'T HIT.

Don't aim to hit them, aim ahead of where they are running, usually about 1 or 2 mech-lengths, sometimes more.

And when some silly Light is circling round & round a team mate (because they think they're invincible), hit them dead-on when they get the point in the circle where they're running directly towards you or away from you, you get two prime shots per circuit.

Use the crosshair turning red (hit-indicator) to show you when you're hitting, don't use sparks, or burn-makrs, or whatever visual effect the weapon uses.

Best still, use the 7x guys on your team; No Light mech can run through coordinated fire from a whole team and come out un-hurt. If he pops out and surprises you he might make it through, but he'll be damaged, and he can't hope to keep running around all of you with everyone shooting him for long.

I'm not some pro-player, really I'm not, but I kill plenty of Lights with my Founder's C1 (2x Large Pulse, 2x Med Laser, 2x SRM-4).
Sometimes I drop the SRMs and upgrade the Med Lasers to Pulses, while adding some more heatsinks.
Med lasers are good, because the burn-time is long, and you can sort of "feel" ahead of the Light and tell how far in-front you need to aim with the big pulse lasers.
The SRMs are pretty useless, as I don't carry enough ammo to risk too many misses.


If they get me in some circle-strafing fight, with him running round & round me, it's a big hassle, for sure, and sometimes if i have no support (say I'm in a pub match), they'll kill me.

But no way is he coming out of that fight undamaged, he'll be so hurt that the next guy that hits him will get a kill.
Unless of course he's doing his job well, and fighting me when I'm engaged with some other, bigger mech, in which case they've just outplayed us.

[Codejack]

BigJim, on 05 December 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Don't aim to hit them, aim ahead of where they are running, usually about 1 or 2 mech-lengths, sometimes more.

.
.
.
But no way is he coming out of that fight undamaged, he'll be so hurt that the next guy that hits him will get a kill.
Unless of course he's doing his job well, and fighting me when I'm engaged with some other, bigger mech, in which case they've just outplayed us.

OMG, would you please go back and read? Yes, I know how to lead; yes, I know how to account for lag; yes, I am showing that I am hitting them; no, it is NOT doing damage.

This is a lag problem, not a weapon problem and not a targeting problem.

[General Taskeen]

Mechs using ECM still bring Streaks to the party. In most 8 group matches its a matter of who can bring the most ECCM, in order to also use their Streaks, so the other kids at the party can't use theirs. Those without ECM are SOL with lock-on weapons.

[Codejack]

General Taskeen, on 05 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

Mechs using ECM still bring Streaks to the party. In most 8 group matches its a matter of who can bring the most ECCM, in order to also use their Streaks, so the other kids at the party can't use theirs. Those without ECM are SOL with lock-on weapons.

Exactly. Hence the 3xSSRM2 Commando, or as I call it, the Halfcat (because it's like half of a streakcat).

[Franchi]

That feeling when you hit a 120+scout with a full 6xsrm6 volley at 60m


That feeling when his paper doll updates and says you didn't.

Edited by Franchi, 05 December 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[BigJim]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

OMG, would you please go back and read? Yes, I know how to lead; yes, I know how to account for lag; yes, I am showing that I am hitting them; no, it is NOT doing damage.

This is a lag problem, not a weapon problem and not a targeting problem.

I did read, you say, you're seeing them hit, but they just don't hit (your words).
That can mean either 2 things;

1) You're seeing the shot connect visually, in which case you're not lag-shooting, or not leading far enough..

2) Or it could mean you're lag-shooting them correctly, using the damage-indicator (paper-doll) flash to show damage, but it's not doing damage.
Which just plain doesn't happen, as the paper-doll is tied to the enemy damage.



On some, rare cases (say with a ballistic weapon like an AC20) you can hit them dead-on (when they're running away from you usually) and the shot doesn't connect - or, the sot connects, but the paper-doll still doesn't flash.
But that's a ballistics issue, I've had it happen with lots of different mechs.



But still, you're trying to drag my post off-topic; I'm talking about real, team-v-team matches.
Anything you can't counter personally (K2 gauss, LRMs with artemis, scouts, ECM, etc..) anything that your mech is not geared-up to fight personally is "OP" in a pug match, because you have no support to call upon, you can't manoeuvre with the larger group, you can't relay intel, etc..

So anything that your mech isn't built to 1v1 all on it's own will feel overpowered.

All this changes in a team environment, because not every mech on the board is designed to fight every other mech on the board, and only using them all in combination can you counter the whole range of the enemy team.

Edited by BigJim, 05 December 2012 - 07:31 AM.