89 replies to this topic

[Kenshar]

Agree

[Woopass]

First off. I think if this ECM in MWO is based of Table top, then leave it as is, if it is not then please set it to table top rules. That way if Mechwarriors complain about it, You developers can at least say, Hey! Its table top rules. And that shuts down the need for complaining about it. I think a good balance for the ECM goes as follows.

If ECM carrier is a set distance away *lets say 1k meters* from my mech. And I am running BAP * extends my radar to 1,200 meters* and other Range extending Options. They should pop up on my radar and also be targetable in my Line of sight.

While enemy ECM is a set range away form your mech his ECM will still disrupt your Target information Gathering *still takes longer to gather info*

Also LRM's or any weapon that have to acquire a lock on to fire. Are disrupted and take longer to lock on. But once locked on you have a higher chance of wasting your Missles by firing on Said enemy ECM carrier by the ECM disrupting their flight path.

Enemy ECM while in 180m of your mech. Still has same disrupting effects. And is still counterable with your friendly ECM carrier.

I think this would be the best balance for the ECM. Please like if you agree.

Edited by Woopass, 07 December 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[Roland]

The implementation of ecm in mwo is far more interesting than the tabletop rules.

[Allen Ward]

Strig, on 05 December 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

IF you run ALL lock-on weapons (which pre-ECM was always valid and extremely powerful with very little to counter it) then a good team with an ECM or two will shut you down ...

So ... DON'T run ALL lock-on weapons or deal with the fact that you will only get to target the mechs that leave the bubble.

I played a lot of matches last night and many times one team or the other wouldn't have any ECM. Just as often the ECM would be on a light (or Cicada) who would run off to scout, and the rest of the Team would be without ECM cover.

Fact is that now you have to think about your loadout, your team composition, whether your lights should scout, stay with the group to provide ECM cover or charge into the enemy to disrupt their ECM cover. These sorts of decisions are good things for the game and make fights much more interesting!

PGI has shown that they understand the power of the ECM both by the mechs they've decided to give it to and the decision to look at increasing TAG range as another viable counter to ECM shielding. As a TT fan and player I can understand why people might quote the TT rules, but I disagree that they were perfect and I love what PGI is doing.

Hm...some Mechs in the game are ALL LOCK ON designs by default and intention. I do not talk about the Streak Boats, the basic long range indirect fire support mechs are also countered effectively by several ECMs on the other side. I do think this is a major change in the game and it's not a balanced one. I myself hate coming under missile fire, too. But you cannot counter one strong effect, that only occurs under very specific circumstances (you do not stay behind cover enough, you do not move fastly enough, no one engages the enemy missile mechs and disrupts their activities...) by introducing some new item that automatically negates a whole weapon technology and nullifies strategies that involve long range indirect fire.

I vote for ECM, but I would love to see it modified.
Loading an ECM module should be expensive in the regions of an XL engine (or a bit less). After all ECM elongs to the more advanced tech levels in my opinion.
Loading an ECM module should have some serious side effects on the mech carrying it. Could be something like it produces heat when switched on, adds a load of new critical hits and breaks very fastly when hit by weapon fire or collision damage, ...
Another idea would be: if ECM systems (any number) are countered by at least one enemy ECM system, their cloaking and lockon delay effect should be reduced or go on/off randomly. If more ECCMs come in, the effect of the ECMs could be reduced further until (same amount of ECCM vs ECM in area) it is completely gone. This could lead to a "button flicking battle", where both sides try to counter each other constantly by switching between ECM/ECCM mode rapidly, maybe not the coolest thing...changing the ECM/ECCM mode could have a cooldown rate to prevent ridiculeous things like that.

Anyway, ECM should not be a reliable addon that offers the current effect automatically and unrestricted. It should be fragile, expensive (high rep cost) and maybe have some flaws (random malfunctions?).

For me the current implementation does not feel like Battletech Technology, it feels like stuff from games with more advanced, more rational scifi, not lost tech. I am not a canon guru, please correct if I'm wrong here. I support the idea, that ECM should counter other electronic devices, but not at the current extent. And by the way...why does ECM NOT block or disrupt heat vision, night vision, hud display??? Ah, those systems have a failsafe against ECM which was simply forgotten for the targeting computer of indirect weapons? yeah...

One should not try to balance game mechanics by introducing a single item. The error with the streak cats does not lie in the streak srms...it lies in the possibilty to pack loads of them onto one chassis in the mechlab. a streak cat is wrong by the very idea of the catapult chassis design (it was built from the core as a long range support mech). the problems arise by allowing players to simply throw out all components and create new builds that definitely unbalance game play. i love building mechs, but i think it would have been better to not do the mechlab thing at all, but simply offer a huge amount of various fixed builds (=the mechs from the readouts). Players should earn money to change their mech into one of the known variants slowly, but not buy buying and loading any weapon freely onto any chassis with enough space/crits. In BT there were reasons why no omnimechs existed in th IS, and current MWO Mechs are even more versatile then clan omnimechs.

I know, i will get killed by all of you for saying making mech builds possible was probably (!) the wrong decision. Would you still play MWO if you couldnt tinker around with your mech, but had all several hundred something mech designs available for buying? Whats the fun part of the game: coming up with builds that defeat anything or playing tactically and smart with the weapons (fixed mech designs) given?

[Elder Thorn]

OP, you can still fire your LRMs, using your 'gunnery skill', even if your target is ECM protected.

i like ECM as it is, and i died often to groups making good use of it, i like that.

[Rocket2Uranus]

ECM broke my Missile boat.
MAKE ECM USELESS NOW!

stop the QQs.

LRM/SSRM are useless against ECM.

Get some skills and strap some SRM6 to ur mech and aim a little for a change.
I've already seem some beastly SRM Cats.

Or have the balls to strap some Lasers to your mech and know you don't have to be afraid of ammo/jamming/ECM.

I should start posting about how lasers should be OP.
You can tell Laser were never OP because you don't see Laser boats lol

Edited by Rocket2Uranus, 07 December 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Michaelson Snow]

First i will start by saying that ECM is not broken persay, but very unbalanced. Hopefully PGI works on making the ECM counter tech work properly. until then we will be seeing a lot of "IT's BROKEN! REMOVE IT! Ect..."

As a Dedicated and skilled long range support pilot. i like the fact that it takes thought,skill, and even patience to use LRM's now, Support is almost fun now lol..however, it still needs balancing.

so a couple of thoughts, not saying do this or it's never gonna work..just thoughts...

FIRST..fix the counter tech
SECOND....Make it module based or partly module based...so it takes GXP, high c-bill cost, and a bit of play time to get the full ECM effects...
THIRD.. REMEMBER...nowhere in BT..tabletop or otherwise..there is no SINGLE piece of equipment..weapons systems...or chasis itself that turns a game so easily. everything has a counter. and NOT JUST TACTICS, nor by forcing pilots to run configs they do not normally run.
FOURTH...PUT BACK COLLISION AND KNOCKDOWN...this will bring the lights back into a more manageable problem.

Please community..., remember that role warfare means every mech should be somewhat viable, each pilot doing what they do best(whether that is Support,Scouting or frontline brawling)..each individual trooper..from the groundpounders to the skyriders...do things better, or worse than other individuals....Imagine..asking a spec ops soldier to jump in a fighter jet and be as effective as an Ace pilot...or a Tank commander to run a Seal unit.. that said...why is the most common answer i see "Learn to shoot..or..use lasers..or use ballistics"???

IT is ALL about balance. which the ECM is not. fix the balance, but leave the playability.

And to those whom will assuredly flame my post. notice, i never said it is OP, broken or makes me useless..only that it needs balance, which i hope PGI does soon. we all have an opinion, good or bad. i am voicing mine and just ask that you remember what i said..not how you read it.

[Codejack]

I would be fine with the OP's changes; I don't think that it is going to happen, but something has to be done about ECM. It is WAY too powerful, and I'm running it on my mech!

My proposed fix is to let BAP, Artemis, TAG and NARC all work against ECM in slightly different ways and for different weapons.

[GoriKarafong]

I feel that I encounter more and more ECM mechs. This really starts to get boring.

Dont get me wrong. I like the improved tactical deepth of ECM, but if it is overpowered and everyone starts to run an ECM heavy tactic, it gets boring. Why are there other mechs or other mech variants? Why are there LRM and AMS or Beagle?

Just get rid of all this stuff, let us only have those 4 mechs with direct fire weapons and ECM already installed. This should make it more easy to not choose anything wrong for the ingame at the moment, and therefore would be more nebie-friendly.

I may be a bit frustrated at the moment, but it just feels like starting to go down the drains.

[Codejack]

Michaelson Snow, on 07 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

First i will start by saying that ECM is not broken persay, but very unbalanced
.
.
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so a couple of thoughts, not saying do this or it's never gonna work..just thoughts...

FIRST..fix the counter tech

I'm with you up to here, and for most of your post, really, but...

Michaelson Snow, on 07 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

SECOND....Make it module based or partly module based...so it takes GXP, high c-bill cost, and a bit of play time to get the full ECM effects...

My objection is that part of balance is the already profound gulf between new and veteran players, not just in terms of gameplay (although, is blowing away teams of newbies really your idea of a good time?), but as a sound business decision (will the newbies keep coming?), which is antithetical to the notion of restricting the most powerful game mechanic(s) to veteran players, at least until you apply some sort of level-balancing tool to the matchmaking system, which, as far as I know, is not even notional at this stage of game development.

Michaelson Snow, on 07 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

THIRD.. REMEMBER...nowhere in BT..tabletop or otherwise..there is no SINGLE piece of equipment..weapons systems...or chasis itself that turns a game so easily. everything has a counter. and NOT JUST TACTICS, nor by forcing pilots to run configs they do not normally run.

This.

I have no idea what the devs were thinking; ECM's effects (!) are so ridiculously out of proportion to its drawbacks (1.5 tons, 2 slots, NO HEAT?!), especially when compared to the TT/MW versions. It was like they set out specifically to remove the streakcat from the game.... and that was where the planning process ended.

Michaelson Snow, on 07 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

FOURTH...PUT BACK COLLISION AND KNOCKDOWN...this will bring the lights back into a more manageable problem.

Please community..., remember that role warfare means every mech should be somewhat viable, each pilot doing what they do best(whether that is Support,Scouting or frontline brawling)..each individual trooper..from the groundpounders to the skyriders...do things better, or worse than other individuals....Imagine..asking a spec ops soldier to jump in a fighter jet and be as effective as an Ace pilot...or a Tank commander to run a Seal unit.. that said...why is the most common answer i see "Learn to shoot..or..use lasers..or use ballistics"???

There are folk running around here who view the forum as a metagame where insults, derailing threads and outright lies are legitimate tactics.

Michaelson Snow, on 07 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

IT is ALL about balance. which the ECM is not. fix the balance, but leave the playability.

Right on.

Michaelson Snow, on 07 December 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

And to those whom will assuredly flame my post. notice, i never said it is OP, broken or makes me useless

I'm not flaming you, but I think that it is OP (although not to the point that it makes me useless). It needs a good 3 or 4 whacks with the nerfbat, then I think it will be OK.

[Smegmw]

ECM requires no changes. Tabletop is great but keep tabletop rules away from MWO.

Edited by Smegmw, 07 December 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[Kenshar]

Hope they Get ECM fixed soon. I would like to see more mechs on the field than just the ecm varients....

[dtgamemaster]

I support this change. ECM would not be mandatory as it is now.

[Kenshar]

As it stands more than half of all teams are ECM varients.... Sucks so hard!

[FrupertApricot]

Think we got enough votes to get PGI to at least consider rekajiggering the system?

[Peiper]

I hope so. It would be good if after all the time put in by the suggestions supporters (and yes, you detractors, even if you're wrong) if we got some sort of acknowledgement from the Devs that we've been heard. I know that PGI is probably sitting back and watching/reading reviews and will do something to balance things out. (They admitted ECM was already super-powered early on, and that's why it's been limited to certain chassies, etc...)

I still find it ironic, that, in their declaring the streak-a-pult countered, possibly the most powerful mech-per-ton is the ECM commando with 3 streaks and a medium laser. That's more than half the firepower of a streak-a-pult in a mech less than half the weight, and it has the ECM to make the streaks work! As if those little buggers were hittable without streaks before....

[Allen Ward]

Right, it seems streak-a-pult players switched to streak-a-commando immediately. Try to hit a commando running in circles and rubber banding/being protected by lag shield...no chance. ECM protects him from missile fire, the other bugs in the game protect him from direct fire. A commando killed nearly killed a camping Atlas this way (brought him from fresh down to red) before a lucky hit from the Atlas ripped off his legs and destroyed him. Yesterday we had 3 such commandos in the enemy team, they managed to bind 4 heavy and assault mechs for quite a while, stopping our advance and turning the game against us.

I do NOT say that this is wrong...it's just something I exprienced and it seems that ECM/streak commandos are not the exception anymore. Although it seems the amount of 3-4 (ECM) Atlas on a team seems to be less than a few days ago.

[Warlune]

IMO the ECM should make all mechs in its radius appear on the radar as a grey triangles with no information to enemy mechs. This would cause support units to have to really think before firing any weapons because there would be no telling between friend or foe. I think that if we want something that cloaks our mechs, PGI should look into adding the IFF Jammer from MW4. This would cloak only the mech using it.

Edited by Warlune, 09 December 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Hammer RLG]

i will post my ideas and thoughts on how ECM should work here, from this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...-more-balanced/

i hope to find the game sticking to TT/canon as much as possible. while translating to a real time game vs turn based leads to some compromises, things should not go to far outside of the established (?) expectations. In the case of this game it is to function like TT as much as possible. previous incarnations of real time mechy games did so, so we can only hope that this game does so as well.

that said, i hope ECM gets brought back to TT. i do not know all the specific effects of the current incarnation of ECM, but the below is my para-phrase of the master rules.

specifically TAG should not be effected by ECM. TAG is a laser. if lasers were effected then ECM mechs would not be able to be hit by damage inducing laser weapons either.

artemis bonus, active probe, narc homing bonus, C3 connections should be lost within the ECM bubble (180 meters around the ECM mech).

no friendly communications should be cut off by ECM at all. i mean, we do this now in this day and age. if you did not know, for example, convoys carry radio jamming equipment that stop all radio signals within a particular range EXCEPT friendly radio communications. i would expect our technology to not lose this capability in the future, sci fi or not.

also, no ECCM and multiple ECMs should not stack. does not exist in TT/canon, and if ECM is implemented properly no need for it. please just try to get it as close to Master Rules as possible, given the transformation into real time. if the devs feel they MUST keep ECCM, then it should counter any ECM within its bubble, not have to fight against a stack of ECM's with one detracting or adding to the other.

i think perhaps a better idea, if it has to be, would be to allow ECCM to work only on/for the mech it is installed in. while this may not be popular, from a realistic point of view it makes the most sense. this ECCM mech would be able to 'burn through' the ECM bubble with its more powerful sensor array and descrambling equipment. but this one mech can definitely pass off its targeting information to others. if we have to keep this piece of equipment, it should be separate. maybe it is an advanced/improved active probe.

and BAP should display the area of ECM coverage (the bubble).

Edited by Hammer RLG, 13 December 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Elkarlo]

TT Rules won't be working as long as we don't have Omnidirectional Sensors... as the ECM was developed to counter the Omnidirectional Sensors and not the LOS Sensors in the first case on Double Blind playing.

Some of the Orignal thinks would be fine. But i think the MOST part broken in ECM is that it enhanced the "Base Race" Gamemode. Eitherway we reduce ECM in COMBAT effectivity... the Base Race Mode will stay on, and even will be MORE Likely be used when the ECM Combat effectivity is reduced.

So first we need to get rid of the ECM Base Race Gamemode... Then we can start balancing ECM.

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/