253 replies to this topic

[Grraarrgghh]

Kaldor, on 05 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

This must be one of those that get angry when killed by LRMs. The levels of knowledge here are undeniable!

LRMs take more team work than a direct fire build. They are easy to fire, but are much harder to make them effective without a spotter. However, you have a spotter with TAG, they are evil, as they should be. And you need to hold your target the entire time the missiles are in flight or they go to last known position, and likely miss.

TLDR version: Effective LRM boating is more difficult than it appears.

Hardly. Try bringing your snowflake LRM 60 Catapult to a competitive match. No amount of teamwork will save you from being useless fodder.

[Death Knell]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

See my above reply. 1 mech taking 2 others out of a battle without firing a shot is not balance.

Oh man, the irony that some one who plays streak cats would complain about imbalances!

You're just unhappy because you can't boat your aimbot weapons, and might have to have a diversified build for multiple situations.

[Dukov Nook]

Jetfire, on 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

So you bought the closed beta version of the game, not the vision for the future? Because ECM and its essential implementation makes logical sense given what it is. E-warfare is a part of the game by design. Balances are shifting and team role warfare is the eventual goal. Don't want to run ECM... try ballistics, lasers and SRM's. Want to run LRM's or streaks, you'll need assistance and you probably still won't want to boat anymore. Boating lock on weapons now has a serious downside, that is balance.

Yet 'radar' is only LOS....

[Viper69]

Grraarrgghh, on 05 December 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Hardly. Try bringing your snowflake LRM 60 Catapult to a competitive match. No amount of teamwork will save you from being useless fodder.

Exactly, the all eggs in one basket mechs are going extinct as of Tuesday Now we see why mech load outs were so broad as to account for situation like we have now.

[Dukov Nook]

Death Knell, on 05 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Oh man, the irony that some one who plays streak cats would complain about imbalances!

You're just unhappy because you can't boat your aimbot weapons, and might have to have a diversified build for multiple situations.

Oh man, the irony here of the fact that I don't play a streak cat.

[Felix]

Viper69, on 05 December 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Exactly, the all eggs in one basket mechs are going extinct as of Tuesday Now we see why mech load outs were so broad as to account for situation like we have now.

There was nothing in battletech that negated something else entirely

There are things that made your life more difficult, but never negated it.

Plus the reason for those varied builds was due to countering threats that are non existent in MWo such as VTOLs, Aerospace, Tanks, and Infantry

[Bishop Steiner]

TruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Not to sway the topic one way ot the other but I wanted to point out that TAG is being buffed and will let you achieve locks on targets that are cloaked in ECM. Sources:
http://mwomercs.com/...29#entry1546429
http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/

Hey TruePointdexter..... stop trying to use reason and common sense and facts.. those are all OP in these forums and must be NERFED!

Of course, I also love how they now have the ECM boogey man, despite the fact that now teams that wanna use ECM/AMS umbrellas have to essentially stand right next to each other, and if any one moves too far lose the protection. Yes, take your already immobile Atlases, and stuff them into a nice shooting gallery for my unit's GaussCats to pick off at will.....

[Fate 6]

verybad, on 05 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

I consistently provided forward targetting and defense of our own LRM boats. I'm familiar with the coordination, many LRM boat drivers didn't coordinate however, they simply found a niche and pressed fire. LRM boats have still been putting up big numbers in terms of damage either way. Now it will take a bit more thought. The good players/teams will get good at that, the ones that just want to keep their finger on the fire button will lose.

Shouldn't LRM boats always put up a bit more damage though? They are doing damage all over a mech, whereas a direct fire mech is aiming at specific components. LRM mechs actually have to deal more damage to take an enemy out.

[Viper69]

Felix, on 05 December 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

There was nothing in battletech that negated something else entirely

There are things that made your life more difficult, but never negated it.

Plus the reason for those varied builds was due to countering threats that are non existent in MWo such as VTOLs, Aerospace, Tanks, and Infantry

Yes but why would an Atlas be armed with weapons that covered a broad array of ranges and situations if it were for not knowing what he would encounter. A catapult even was outfitted with secondary weaponry in most of its variants. Your answer is correct but so is mine, you as a player in Btech didnt have intel on the other players mech load outs, so you had to be versatile.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I put TAG on all my LRM Cats.

I never run exclusive-StreakBoats because the Streak SRM system is meant to be a supplmentary system, not a primary system.

The 6xSRM6 A1 boat is not deterred by ECM.

My 3LL Catapult C1 still does fine and is not deterred by ECM.

My K2 (if I owned one right now...) would be undeterred by ECM.

ECM does not at all eliminate a 65-ton chassis line.

[Walrus Jockey]

Team Work + Well Rounded Mech Builds will still win out over ECM by itself. It's just a tool, one that is designed to support the lance, working as a lance. But to those that want to run these "none trick pony" mechs, showboat in gimmick mechs, or don't want be part of the team, you will just have to deal with ECM, and the lances that know how to use them.

We have been waiting for ECM for awhile, because we knew that it will force people to start working together more, and start thinning out the flavor of week mech builds.

From someone that has been involved with FASA, BattleTech, & MechWarrior for the past couple of decades, my first impression of the currently implemented ECM is.. "All Systems Nominal"

[Walrus Jockey]

Prosperity Park, on 05 December 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I put TAG on all my LRM Cats.

I never run exclusive-StreakBoats because the Streak SRM system is meant to be a supplmentary system, not a primary system.

The 6xSRM6 A1 boat is not deterred by ECM.

My 3LL Catapult C1 still does fine and is not deterred by ECM.

My K2 (if I owned one right now...) would be undeterred by ECM.

ECM does not at all eliminate a 65-ton chassis line.

All correct ECM just means you have different things to consider when using Streaks/LRMs.. Lock on takes longer and you will need to work with your lance to overcome the ECMs effect.

[Phades]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I see. Do you know of a standard LRM platform that equips ECM?

Atlas D-DC....

[stjobe]

Harrison Kelly, on 05 December 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I don't get this at all. There are some Mechs that only have 1 type of hardpoint (Cat-A1, some Jenner variants). This was your option on the A1 prior to the patch.
1) Run all/mostly SRMs, probably SRM 6s.
2) Run all/mostly LRMs, either 15s or 20s.
3) Run all/mostly Strk SRM 2s.
4) Run a mix of LRMs and Strks
5) Run a mix of LRMs and SRMs
6) Run a mix of SRMs and Strks

As of this patch, those options were reduced to just #1 in 8v8 play.

Nah, any mix of LRMs/SRMs is still valid. When you can't use LRMs because a ECM mech is near, use your SRMs on said 'mech. There's zero counter to a well-aimed duo or quartet of SRM-6s.

Also, what's the difference between, say #1 and #5, or #3 and #4? There's only three weapon types you can mount on an A1, so a better list would be:
1. All LRMs (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
2. All SRMs (works as well as ever)
3. All Streaks (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
4. Mix LRM/Streaks (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
5. Mix LRMs/SRMs (works well as a self-defence capable LRM boat)
6. Mix SRMs/Streaks (who ever ran this?)

I make that 2 perfectly viable builds, one with a bit more risk to it, one that probably nobody uses, and two that are bad if the enemy has the ECM advantage but powerful as ever if you do.

[Freeride Forever]

Bguk, on 05 December 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Can we merge all these ECM topics please?

Deleting them would be better.

[Bguk]

stjobe, on 05 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

There's zero counter to a well-aimed duo or quartet of SRM-6s.

I think we have the next item to be "discussed"!!

[dal10]

stjobe, on 05 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Nah, any mix of LRMs/SRMs is still valid. When you can't use LRMs because a ECM mech is near, use your SRMs on said 'mech. There's zero counter to a well-aimed duo or quartet of SRM-6s.

Also, what's the difference between, say #1 and #5, or #3 and #4? There's only three weapon types you can mount on an A1, so a better list would be:
1. All LRMs (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
2. All SRMs (works as well as ever)
3. All Streaks (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
4. Mix LRM/Streaks (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
5. Mix LRMs/SRMs (works well as a self-defence capable LRM boat)
6. Mix SRMs/Streaks (who ever ran this?)

I make that 2 perfectly viable builds, one with a bit more risk to it, one that probably nobody uses, and two that are bad if the enemy has the ECM advantage but powerful as ever if you do.

you forgot a build, 2 lrm 5s 2 srm 6 2 streak 2s. minor long range harassment, decent close in stopping power, still capable of hitting jenners, or other mechs if ecm is countered.

also because my signature applies, lrms and streaks are not worthless, they are just worth less.

Edited by dal10, 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[Kaldor]

Grraarrgghh, on 05 December 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Hardly. Try bringing your snowflake LRM 60 Catapult to a competitive match. No amount of teamwork will save you from being useless fodder.

You must have missed the part where I said Teamwork > ECM.

A 6 LRM5 A1 still works just fine. Its just not as easy mode as it once was. You can still shoot targets without ECM. You can still shoot anything that is TAGged. Do I run my A1 as a primary LRM boat as I once did, nope. Havent in quite awhile. I actually prefer the Founders with LRM15s and the ability to self TAG.

[Harrison Kelly]

stjobe, on 05 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Nah, any mix of LRMs/SRMs is still valid. When you can't use LRMs because a ECM mech is near, use your SRMs on said 'mech. There's zero counter to a well-aimed duo or quartet of SRM-6s.

Also, what's the difference between, say #1 and #5, or #3 and #4? There's only three weapon types you can mount on an A1, so a better list would be:
1. All LRMs (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
2. All SRMs (works as well as ever)
3. All Streaks (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
4. Mix LRM/Streaks (not a good idea if the enemy has the ECM advantage)
5. Mix LRMs/SRMs (works well as a self-defence capable LRM boat)
6. Mix SRMs/Streaks (who ever ran this?)

I make that 2 perfectly viable builds, one with a bit more risk to it, one that probably nobody uses, and two that are bad if the enemy has the ECM advantage but powerful as ever if you do.

Okay, so riddle me this. Since the patch, every single 8v8 drop I've done has had multiple ECM Mechs. Talking 3+, which according to your logic means that "you can't use LRMs because a ECM mech is near."

Now, I run a TAG laser on my Catapult, but if the only time I ever get to fire LRMs is within 450 meters of an enemy Mech and dependent on keeping TAG lock (or someone else is within 450 meters of an enemy Mech and holds a TAG lock), I'm not going to get to fire much. I'm not going to be able to take advantage of the range of LRMs. A1s can't mount a TAG anyway, so that's out.

So again, the builds come down to #2: All SRMs. You pointed out that 3 and 4 aren't good without an ECM advantage, and unreliable generally equals bad. #6 is bad, agreed. #5 without being able to fire LRMs at 500+ meters reliably seems inferior to #2.

Is there a scenario without a guaranteed ECM advantage where it's worth it to bring LRMs or Streaks on an A1? If the answer is yes, I'm curious as to what that would be. If the answer is no, then we're back to Build #2. All SRMs.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

To completely negate a 65 ton Catapult or other missile boat, all a 35 ton ECM equipped raven needs to do is anklebite the opposing mech.

Period. A shot never has to be fired.

As the raven ankle bites the poor cat, negating 90% of his damage capabilities, essentially taking him out of the fight without any use of skill since an ECM raven can approach, in plain site, a LRM cat without worry (pssh, that cat has 2 medium lasers. THE HORROR)... and then simply circle him to keep his ability to lock 100% negated. 'But what about the main group. they no longer have ECM protection'...

Or you could do what most Cat pilots who did not use LRM/Streak SRM missile boating as a crutch and played with a focused, but balanced build. That little raven will find that it will be on the receiving end of everything from three dozen SRMs or quad small lasers to paired ER PPCs or paired large lasers to suppliment the LRM launcers all on a fast turning torso. To paraphrase Forest Gump: "C1 and C4 Catapults are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get." I have see all sorts of builds for those 'Mechs some of which perform far better that what you would expect.

Example I used to use a C4 with 2 Medium Lasers, 2 LRM 15s and used the extra weight from an XL engine for a nasty surprise of twin Streak 2s. I can easily swap the Streaks for standard SRM2s or downgrade the 15s to 10s and load up a pair of six packs and with a little practice that Raven will soon be making a hasty retreat. I prefer the C1 with quad mediums as it happily thrives when opposing 'Mechs get in close, I have to deal with ECM or I simply run out of ammo. I play with teams and stick only a little behind the main push so backup is just a request away if things get dodgy.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 05 December 2012 - 12:21 PM.